I love sailing solo, and I've decided that while I CAN do it, sailing my 5.7 solo isn't much FUN. Often times, I feel like I'm just managing the boat, rather than relaxing on the trapeze, and enjoying the wind on my face like I used to do on my H16. As a result, I've decided that I'm going to get a smaller boat.

Here's my list of qualifications, from most important to least important:

- RESISTANT TO PITCHPOLING!

- BOARDLESS

- Good solo boat for someone who weighs ~165, but won't have trouble holding two sometimes.

- Has both main and Jib

- < $2500

The Nacra 5.0 seems like a good choice, but I'm sure there are other good options out there. Many of you are much more experienced sailors than I am, so I would appreciate your suggestions on what I should get!

nothing is imune to pitching if you push it hard enough... but cats with lots of volume in the bows are the most resistant.

I would suggest
MYSTERE 5.0. or 4.3!!!
or
Dart 18, nacra 5.0 or 5.5 (skeg version),
Prindle 16

or

why not go with what you had and liked???? H16? yes they may be a little prone to pitching, but it sounds like you want a relaxing ride... so no need to push it so hard the bows are stuffing (which is what i live for) :)


PS i never pitched on my h16

Those are some good ideas. Are the MYSTERE 5.0 and 4.3 boardless? If so, I'll definitely add those to my list. I hadn't thought about the 5.5, but that might be a good option too. If I'm remembering correctly, the mast is set further forward on the 5.5, so it tacks better if you want to go mainsail only, right?

I thought about getting an H16 again, but I've already become accustomed (spoiled) to how forgiving my Nacra is when I'm jibing or running, or even when I'm just on a broad reach. I don't think I could give that luxury up now that I've had it.

Keep what you have and get a nacra 5.0 set of sails and use them when it blows hard. I had a P-19 when I lived in Maui and we all know that it really blows hard there in the summer 25+ most afternoons. I bought a set of P-16 sails, yes I said P-16 and had a great time. Some of the H-16 guys took off the jib and reefed the main when it was really blowing. Still, in my opinon the best windsurfing on the planet.

That's an interesting idea hullflyer. I really might try that. Do you just use the halyard to hold the sail up at the top?

Andrew, is part of the mystere of a Mystere that you can't find one? haha jk, Seriously though, where do you find a Mystere? I just finished checking all of the normal places I look for boats, and I only found one.

The nacra 5.5 is not a skeg boat like the 5.7, 5.0 and the 460, the only difference is it has a 8'-6" beam originally
made as a uni boat then they added a jib and bridle foil and
made it a sloop rig. it does have daggerboards.

Best of luck - My opinion keep the 5.7

--
Gordon
Nacra 5.5SL
--

rhuntbach

That's an interesting idea hullflyer. I really might try that. Do you just use the halyard to hold the sail up at the top? I made a pigtail, the size is the difference in the luffs of the mainsails. I attached the one end of the pigtail to the mainsail and the other end to the main halyard and pulled it up as normal.

Andrew, is part of the mystere of a Mystere that you can't find one? haha jk, Seriously though, where do you find a Mystere? I just finished checking all of the normal places I look for boats, and I only found one.

rhuntbach

MYSTERE 5.0 and 4.3 boardless?

yes, there also are 3.5's that are boardless... but thats probably only good for munchkins.

THere is also a 5.5 Mystere FUN that was boardless




edited by: andrewscott, May 13, 2009 - 03:34 PM

rhuntbach

Andrew, is part of the mystere of a Mystere that you can't find one? haha jk, Seriously though, where do you find a Mystere?

Since they went out of production in 2006/2007 they are becoming harder to find.

There is a big 4.3 fleet in Minnesota (i think) We have 6 or so regulars here in Dunedin Florida and several others that are local but in hiding. This is because they were first sold here (first in the US) and there was a sailing school sponsored by mystere (or at least supported by).

There still is limited support from Canada for parts from École de voile Sansoucy (the designers sailing school in Canada) - http://www.ecoledevoilesansoucy.com/

But you just gotta keep an eye out on the boards (ebay / this site / craigslist). Recently there was a 4.3 with 2 mains and a spin for $1200 locally., i almost bought it just to play with it...




edited by: andrewscott, May 13, 2009 - 03:42 PM

rhuntbach

Do you just use the halyard to hold the sail up at the top?

Depending on the size differences... you may need to make a pig-tail... and you may need to flip the boat over to disconnect it... but maybe not...

many of us have high wind sails. usually we use a pintop (vs our usual square tops) and often they have much less sail area.

Wow $1200 sounds like a sweet deal. Driving to Florida or Minnesota from Utah doesn't sound too good though. haha I wonder if I could find one in California maybe. I'll have to keep my eye out for that.

Also, I found a nice looking 5.0 on craigslist that's not too far from me. Looks just like my 5.7, only smaller. Same sails and everything. I'm thinking about heading down to check it out this weekend, and maybe I'll pick it up.



edited by: rhuntbach, May 13, 2009 - 04:05 PM

does it have boards? (i think they made 5.0's both ways)

Nope, it's a boardless model. I wish I could get something with boards that kick up, like the rudders do. Tacking a boardless boat is such a pain. Do you know of anything that has kick up dagger boards, that's old enough to be in my price range?

Prindle 19 fits your criteria and has centerboards.

--
Philip
--

The Tornado is also a centerboard boat that requires very little water for the boards. I wouldn't suggest soloing a Tornado with the jib up and righting it alone would be a problem.

Rich, a Tornado would definitely be cool... I don't think I'm that good of a sailor yet though. :)


Andrew, I've been doing some research on the Mystere 4.3, and I'm really starting to think it would be a good fit for me. It seems like it's small enough that I could just relax and sail the daylights out of it, but it's still big enough that I could take a buddy along without feeling like it's going to sink. Does that sound like an accurate assessment to you?



edited by: rhuntbach, May 14, 2009 - 12:41 AM

mummp

Prindle 19 fits your criteria and has centerboards.

Do the dagger boards kick up on a P19?

Ryan,
The center boards on the P19 pivot up, so yes. Understand that a daggerboard and a centerboard are two different things. Daggerboards pull up/down in their trunks, while centerboards pivot in their trunks.

--
Philip
--

rhuntbach

mummp

Prindle 19 fits your criteria and has centerboards.

Do the dagger boards kick up on a P19?

one of the main features that convinced me to purchase my Mystere was kick up center boards...


After peter-paining after burying my H18 dagger boards several times... i wanted to get away from dagger boards.

Scrambling to the low side to get my boards up was no fun (especially in heavy air). not to mention they would get "stuck" often and i capsized more than once fighting with them to lift them.

That being said.... on my boat the center board wells are paper thin and super delicate. i have ruptured them 2 times now. the last time was due to a shackle falling in there and i didn't know it... when i set the boards it broke the well wall... luckily it was in a place i could reach.... if not... you need to CUT OPEN THE HULL to access it....

Ryan,

It is good that you know your limitations. The Tornado is a big boat to handle.

The P19 is also pretty fast and will be a significant performance upgrade over your Nacra 5.7. The P18-2 may also be a centerboard boat.

Portsmouth Ratings:
Nacra 5.7 2-up N5.7 72.6 75.5 74.8 72.2 68.6
Prindle 19 P19 66.4 71.7 68.9 64.5 62.3

You would also be adding 17 ft2 of sail, 25 lbs of displacement, 6 inches of beam and 8.25 inches of length.

This kind of goes against the smaller, more relaxing boat idea (so does the Tornado).

The Nacra 5.0 is a nice boat, but I don't know that you are gaining much by dropping from the 5.7.

Have you tried sailing the 5.7 without the jib when you are alone? I realize that this will make tacking more difficult, but it removes a few controls as well. The 5.0 is going to have a similar number of lines to the 5.7 and does not have the performance potential.

rhuntbach

Andrew, I've been doing some research on the Mystere 4.3, and I'm really starting to think it would be a good fit for me. It seems like it's small enough that I could just relax and sail the daylights out of it, but it's still big enough that I could take a buddy along without feeling like it's going to sink. Does that sound like an accurate assessment to you?

I am sorry, i didnt see this post.
I will be honest, i have never seen a 4.3 in person but i think it is to small for crew (14.1076'). I personally would go for the 5.0 (16.4041)

PS TORNADO's ARE MONSTERS.... 10' wide...you need a tilt trailer (as its illegal to have 10' wide trailers), take hours to set up... AND I WANT 1!

my fiend had one that was in bad shape.. soft hulls... so he took the mast and put it on his mystere (an extra foot tall) and put 10' beams on the Mystere. ITS A MOSTER! Yea haw

I know everyone will blast me for suggesting an almost 4KSB, but I would recommend the Hobie Wave. It's meant to be sailed solo, it's easy, moderately quick, simple to set up and break down, tough as iron with the rotomolded hulls and you can sail, rather than spend the day managing the boat. But most of all, it's an easy one-design racer with a gigantic fleet. Just a fleet of individuals with identical boats. May the best sailor win.

It may be out of the price range (I don't know what the used market for Waves looks like), but that's my two cents.

there are certainly people who love their waves (Rick White and crew)... but they are low performance cats... if thats what you want... then it is probably a good fit

(i would rather sail the box it came in) as the saying goes... :)

wouldnt a Getaway be a better fit (since he wants to have crew on occasion)? again... not the boat for me....

Leave it to you Andrew to call me out on that. Yeah, while not a 4KSB, it is rather slow. But for soloing and "more sailing/less fussing", I don't think they can be beat. And I've skippered a Wave at a resort with 4 adult in 15-kt of wind and it moved. Two people fit on a Wave all right.

Maybe the A-cat or a small formula, but I like the idea of solo one-design racing. But to be honest, where I am, there are Wave fleets but few of the "exotic" speedster classes like you find in Florida, Cali or other parts of the world.

I'm not about to go out and buy one either. I can solo my P-18.2 just fine. I just don't think it's a small cat that should be over-looked for some people.

Andrew: I crewed on a classic Tornado back around 91-92. It was a lot of boat back then and the new setup is just more of everything. The setup is actually not that bad. They are 10'8" beam, but the tilt trailers mean that you can move them without having to tear the boat down.

The Wave is a great boat if your area routinely gets enough wind for it. In lighter wind areas, they are a little under sailed.

Dream boats:
Single handed:
- A Class (M5)
- F16 Uni

Two-up:
- Marstrom 20
- Tornado
- F18 HT

All of your input has been great guys! I've learned quite a bit from reading your responses, both about what boat to get, and about cats in general. Many thanks!

rpiper138

Andrew: I crewed on a classic Tornado back around 91-92. It was a lot of boat back then and the new setup is just more of everything. The setup is actually not that bad. They are 10'8" beam, but the tilt trailers mean that you can move them without having to tear the boat down.

The Wave is a great boat if your area routinely gets enough wind for it. In lighter wind areas, they are a little under sailed.

Dream boats:
Single handed:
- A Class (M5)
- F16 Uni

Two-up:
- Marstrom 20
- Tornado
- F18 HT

Agreed with most of what you say,,, except i think you still need to do alot of tear down with a tilt-o trailer. on some you even need to remove the tramp!

Also in my "post lotto days"

Dream boats:
Single handed:
- A Class (M5)
- F17 Uni


Two-up:
- BLADE F16
- Marstrom 20
- Tornado
- F18 CAPRICORN

And of caurse - who wouldnt want a $90,000 Corsair

rhuntbach

All of your input has been great guys! I've learned quite a bit from reading your responses, both about what boat to get, and about cats in general. Many thanks!

It's our pleasure.. we get alot out of these forums as well...

this is my 3rd season soloing my 5.2

my first experiences trying to depower it in big winds by removing the jib almost ended in disaster when the high winds weathervaned the hulls into irons while i was trying to tack out of a tight spot between the shore and a floating steel hotel, almost got blown back into a no-exit situation where the boat would have been crunched up. BUT after 3 failed attempts i finally just managed to back her out on the right side and get the heck out of there, after that i avoided sailing with main only

however worn jib cleats made me remove the jib again on a big wind day and i discovered that blowing the traveller during tacks made the hulls much easier to get across head to wind than just blowing the mainsheet, never missed a tack after that

so if you haven't tried that already do so, it just might make the 5.7 manageable enough solo

but if you've got the space and cash a cheap 5.0 would certainly give you more options and parts



edited by: erice, May 14, 2009 - 05:20 PM

Tacking a uni rig takes some getting used to. I took the hobie course that is offered once a year here in Dallas and it was extremely helpful. Going from a monohull to a unirig cat had me very frustrated in the conditions that we get on the largest small lake (30,000 acres) here. The waves tend to be short and steep, pushing your bow back out of the wind. The Hobie guys helped me out and no more tacking problems.

They also make it more difficult to break through surf, but it is still possible.

Well, there's been a new complication to my boat situation--I went out yesterday with a few of my buddies (about 600 pounds crew weight total), and it was one of the best sailing days I've ever had! I've never gone out with that many people on my boat before, and with all that weight on the windward hull, my 5.7 absolutely flew around the lake.

It was a very different sailing experience having that many people out. Obviously, it's different than solo, but it was also quite different from sailing with two people. With two people, you're just chillin, and sailing in a very controlled manner, at least for me. With 4 people, we found ourselves "fighting" for a place on the hull, or trapeze, trying not to slide down tramp into the water, which was really very fun.

Granted, I rarely have that many people out with me, but it was so fun that I'm starting to look more fondly on the idea of keeping my 5.7 and getting a set of smaller sails for when I'm solo. That way I can still take lots of people out when I have the opportunity.



edited by: rhuntbach, May 15, 2009 - 03:51 PM

The main on a Nacra 5.7 is 176 square feet. This is only 4 square feet more than the Nacra 5.5 that I solo all the time. You can probably depower the rig enough to be able to solo the 5.7 with just the current main.

yeah, work on mastering the boat you've got in ALL conditions before rushing off to new equipment

the fastest people in the real world are generally the ones who have HUGE experience on their boats

and they are also generally the most relaxed while doing it as they've discovered all the little tricks needed for their boat in their conditions

old is gold and new is no clue



edited by: erice, May 15, 2009 - 06:41 PM

You're right, the sail area on my 5.7 really isn't that big, and I can definitely depower the rig enough to solo. Sailing a depowered rig just isn't much fun, in my opinion.

During the summer, the lake I sail at almost never sees a day where the wind doesn't top 20mph; and during the spring and fall, it rarely sees a day that doesn't top 25mph. With my small size, and my 5.7's tall mast, I have to start depowering the rig at a measly 15mps of wind when I'm solo. So, a good portion of the time, I'm sailing a very depowered 5.7 around the lake, which I don't think is very fun.

I'd much rather have a rig that's small enough, and/or short enough, that I can haul the sail in to a good half propeller shape, and USE that great wind to go fast! I'm thinking a smaller set of sails will let me do this. What do you think?

erice, thanks for the tip on using the traveler when tacking. That's so obvious now that I think about it, but I'd never thought to do that before.

Ryan: I have to depower at about the same wind speeds and am still able to haul the sheet in and get a good sail shape. I use the downhaul, mast rake and mast rotation to reduce power. This lets you sail it like a less powerful boat without being short on power when there is less wind.

I only know how to depower using the mainsheet, the traveler, and the rotator. How do you use the downhaul and mast rake to depower?

AFAIK you can only use the downhaul to depower if you've got a modern rig built for mast prebend etc.

i couldn't work out why everyone was saying to depower with downhaul but it just wouldn't help on my boat, turns out my boat was too old to respond to downhaul

so how to tell, (again this is only AFAIK so please correct if wrong)

downhaul depower boat
- swept and adjustable spreaders on the diamond wires
- many times purchase on the downhaul, like 10 to 1, or even 16 to 1, usually double sided so it can be adjusted from either side of the mast
- sail beefed up with many layers of cloth around downhaul eyelet to take the 200-300lb? loads

non-downhaul depower boat
- straight or no spreaders
- very little purchase in downhaul system, 3 to 1 etc. and only adjustable on 1 side
- sail with only 1 or 2 extra layers of cloth around downhaul eyelet as loads less than 100lbs

mast rake depower obviously can't be done while sailing, must be done on the beach before going out and generally needs 2 people so not really a soloing depower option.

more you rake the mast back the further back the sail's center of effort gets. this means when screaming along on a reach with hulls at terminal velocity that the rig is less likely to bury the bows and trip them over into a pitchpole

mast rake very important on boardless boats as it also loads the rudders into partial daggerboards and helps boat point higher, (hobie redesigned the stays and blocks of the h16 to allow for more mast rake in 1984? when the aussies started cleaning up the world's with hugely raked masts in the big winds)

taking the jib off my 5.2 cuts the sail area from 19.2m2 to 15.5m2. sailing uni also seems to make mast rotation and traveller position adjustments more effective

ie when uni i don't have to bother with the jib anymore but i have to spend more time adjusting mast rotation and traveller position for each point of sail. of course that means intentionally mis-tuning them helps kill the performance and makes the boat more manageable in a big blow, (would really like to try a roller furling jib for the best of both worlds, anyone an old h18 system they will send overseas?)

what has prevented me from sailing uni in big winds more was i couldn't guarantee my tacks, and on a small gusty lake with many shore obstructions i needed to

blowing the traveller instead of the mainsheet, as i duck under the boom, has really helped here

it's faster than releasing the mainsheet and the rig seems to pivot on the hulls easier. that means the hulls can better use their boat speed inertia to get well across the eye of the wind during the tack and not weathercock into irons. once i'm safely under the boom and the hulls have crossed well past the wind it's also quicker to pull in the traveller to center, but heavier so get it right back to center before heading off to gain speed

usually i know it's safe to start pulling in the traveller after i hear the big lash as the mast slams from 1 mast rotation limit to the other



edited by: erice, May 16, 2009 - 09:16 PM

Quote

so how to tell, (again this is only AFAIK so please correct if wrong)

All sounds correct to me...

Just some expanded explanations:
downhaul makes the top of the mast bend and allows wind to fall off the sail...

outhaul flattens the lower part of the sail (removing some of the pocket) and will also allow air to "fall off". It also changes your DRAFT but that is a whole different theory...

Mast rake will also effectively reduce some sail area by the fact that some of the wind comes down on an angle.. and hits and bounces off the water (hitting your sail from below). so if your main is raked more.. there is less of it way up top (where more of the power is generated).
Rake is not an "on the fly" adjustment but can easly be done prior to stepping the mast.. and with help can be pretty easy to do ont the beach.. you should try different settings (while keeping EVERYTHING else you can unchanged).

the only thing i would add is that downhaul and outhaul are micro tuners... by them self the difference is almost not noticable... but in combonation with eachother, mast rotation... travler positions (both jib and main)... they can all add up to some de-powering..

i wouldn't discount getting another set of sails if you find a good pair ...



edited by: andrewscott, Jun 09, 2009 - 05:29 PM

I am still learning what is the right rake for different conditions on my boat. Unfortunately I learned a couple of weeks ago that too much rake is preferable to too little. The whole boat rotated around the port bow (again) and, thanks to my footstrap, I got to fall a long way before I finally hit the water.