Well, I?m still dry but almost there. Made a lot of good progress cleaning and fixing up this boat (no pictures yet but I?ll try to get some this weekend) but there are still a few things I'm hoping you guys can help me with.

1. Went through a dry run stepping and rigging and raising sails. The most important thing I discovered is that the mast on the N 5.2 is a lot heavier than the one on the H16. Managed to bend the dolphin striker rod bringing it back down. I?ve read a good bit on this site about stepping, but if anyone has tips specific to my boat I?d appreciate your input.
2. There appears to be a cleat on the forestay adjuster. I?m guessing this is for a downhaul but there is no line on my jib for that purpose. Is the cleat for something else?
3. On the mast hound there is a hole above the one that serves the attachment of shrouds and stays. The guy who owned the boat before me apparently used this hole for connecting the trap wires with a carabiner. Does that seem like the proper arrangement?
4. It?s painfully annoying to use split rings for completing connection of the mast hinge pin and forestay pin and gooseneck pin. Do you guys just use quick releases for all of these things or substitute spring clips for the rings? I can see using a quick release for something like the hiking stick but my first thought is to worry about them popping out of an important connection like the forestay. I suppose what I'm really asking is are the quick release pins safe and reliable?
5. At the base of my mast there are just two clam cleats. I know there should be a downhaul for the main and my jib halyard has a block for (I assume) tensioning the sail. My question is ? what happens to the main and jib halyard tails? Is the proper procedure to raise the sails, then use downhauls and other adjustments for tension while the halyard tails are free and stowed? (I have to admit, it kind of goes against the grain not to have halyards securely cleated off.)
6. There?s a pad eye about four or five feet up on the front of the mast. Does anyone know what that?s for?

I know this is like asking someone to write a manual, I don?t really expect anyone to have answers to everything, but any input is greatly appreciated. Anything I can?t figure out here I?ll bug the Nacra guys about.

Thanks in advance.

I'll take the first crack. Here are some quick answers. You might want to post some pics. Plus you local dealer and the factory tech folks should be able to help you.


1.Went through a dry run stepping and rigging and raising sails. The most important thing I discovered is that the mast on the N 5.2 is a lot heavier than the one on the H16. Managed to bend the dolphin striker rod bringing it back down. I?ve read a good bit on this site about stepping, but if anyone has tips specific to my boat I?d appreciate your input.
A: Heavy as heck and not for the faint hearted. My 5.8 mast needs to be turned sideways when lowering or stepping. Also you need a stool or sawhorse to support the mast when on the ball and down. You will need to replace the rod. I bent mine and replaced it. $75-100.
2. There appears to be a cleat on the forestay adjuster. I?m guessing this is for a downhaul but there is no line on my jib for that purpose. Is the cleat for something else?
A: Might have had a furling assembly at one time & that is where the halyard was cleated. My halyard cleats to the mast.
3. On the mast hound there is a hole above the one that serves the attachment of shrouds and stays. The guy who owned the boat before me apparently used this hole for connecting the trap wires with a carabiner. Does that seem like the proper arrangement?
A: Right positon wrong hardware. See parts manual.
4. It?s painfully annoying to use split rings for completing connection of the mast hinge pin and forestay pin and gooseneck pin. Do you guys just use quick releases for all of these things or substitute spring clips for the rings? I can see using a quick release for something like the hiking stick but my first thought is to worry about them popping out of an important connection like the forestay. I suppose what I'm really asking is are the quick release pins safe and reliable?
A: I dont trust QR Pins. Rings Rings Rings and waterproof electrical tape.
5. At the base of my mast there are just two clam cleats. I know there should be a downhaul for the main and my jib halyard has a block for (I assume) tensioning the sail. My question is ? what happens to the main and jib halyard tails? Is the proper procedure to raise the sails, then use downhauls and other adjustments for tension while the halyard tails are free and stowed? (I have to admit, it kind of goes against the grain not to have halyards securely cleated off.)
A: Tails: I tuck them away in my tramp pocket.. Main adjusted via downhaul. Jib via halyard and adjuster. The cleats you refer to work fine. You might want to send us pics. Seems that downhaul parts are missing. Are there pullies or cam blocks on your mast base? Sail hardware?
6. There?s a pad eye about four or five feet up on the front of the mast. Does anyone know what that?s for? A: Send us pics.

4. It?s painfully annoying to use split rings for completing connection of the mast hinge pin and forestay pin and gooseneck pin. Do you guys just use quick releases for all of these things or substitute spring clips for the rings? I can see using a quick release for something like the hiking stick but my first thought is to worry about them popping out of an important connection like the forestay. I suppose what I'm really asking is are the quick release pins safe and reliable?
A: I use qr pins most places I can except the forestay. When I bought the boat it had a QR there, too, but I was told too many horror stories of 'helpers' yanking the QR pin in the forestay trying to take down the jib. I use a normal clevis pin there now.

5. At the base of my mast there are just two clam cleats. I know there should be a downhaul for the main and my jib halyard has a block for (I assume) tensioning the sail. My question is ? what happens to the main and jib halyard tails? Is the proper procedure to raise the sails, then use downhauls and other adjustments for tension while the halyard tails are free and stowed? (I have to admit, it kind of goes against the grain not to have halyards securely cleated off.)
A: I have both of the tails set up to be easily removed..anything quick works here (sister clips, shackle, etc)

6. There?s a pad eye about four or five feet up on the front of the mast. Does anyone know what that?s for?
A: After removing the tail on the main halyard I hook it to this eye on the mast. If for some reason the halyard comes unhooked at the top the sail should stay up by hanging onto the eyelet.

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

One thing to remember about quick pins "THEY ARE HOLLOW", they will fail under enough stress and age. Clevis pins are solid.

Hey,
I just purchased a 5.2 also several months ago (I also come from a H16 background) and went through many of the same things. I may be able to help a bit too.

A.1. Step the mast on a flat surface. I know that they say to be on an incline with the bows facing up, but the mast seems way heavier when you step that way. If you are walking onto the tramp rig a sturdy step up so it is a little easier, or have someone hold it up while you get on the tramp. You have to turn the mast 90 degrees when you step/unstep it or it bends the dolphin striker bar. I did the same thing, pounded it back a bit and have been sailing with the a bent rod. It is definitely better to replace but I don't think it will break that close to the end provided the ball is still on properly and isn't completely munched. I've been sailing with the bent one without issues while my new one gets here.

2.A. Yes that is for the jib downhaul. I think it may have been an option on the 5.2 but was standard on some of the other boats they made at that time (along with the main downhaul). They probably used the same forestay adjuster on all of them. You can look at it in the old assembly manual on Performance Catamaran's site and cobble it together from parts if you think you need it.

3. A. Yep that's for the trap lines. Should be connected with a large bow shackle though, don't use carabiners on anything on the boat that will be under stress (even the stainless ones), that means basically everything connected to the mast.

4.A. I use QR harware for the boom to sail , boom to gooseneck, mainsheet block to boom, mainsheet block to traveler car, hiking stick, jib tack, halyards and jib to forestay, and on the connections for my jib blocks. I don't think anyone trusts them on the shrouds or the forestay connections to the boat.

5. Yep that's for the Main downhaul. You may not have a block for them though (again some 5.2s have it and some don't). In that case you attach 1/4 rope to the eyelet on the left side of the mast up inside the mast rotator arms through the eyelet on thetack of the sail and then down through the cleat. This give you at least a 2:1 purchase.

The main halyard line is meant to be untied and stowed in the tramp pocket. The jib halyard is supposed to be cleated off, but there isn't a neat place to put the extra line (that I have found). Or you can rig a cleat for that on the mast also.

6. A. That is for the jib preventer. It is just a 6' piece of shock cord that you tie to the outboard ends of the dolphin striker and run through the eye on the mast. It prevents the jib from getting caught under the mast casting when you tack.

Hope this helps, I don't know everything about the boat yet, but I think I asked myself all those questions at least twice.

Regards,
Dave

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Thanks guys. I really appreciate the time everyone took to share their experiences. It's especially valuable in that many of you have Nacras.

Yeah, I really blew the mast lowering thing. I remembered turning it ninety degrees when raising, but was so concerned about how it would work to lower it with the winch that I just forgot about turning on the way down. I'll go pick up another rod from Nacra sometime this week (gonna opt for the conservative route there). If anyone has tips on replacing that rod I'd be interested.

One of the things that concerned me upon thinking about the heavy mast was the idea of righting when solo. I was able to right the H16 I had pretty much with just a righting line, but I think this beast is going to require some extra muscle, or gear. Anybody know anything about this system - http://www.catsailor.com/power_righter.html

Thanks to everyone for the downhauls and halyards advice. I think I've got that stuff sorted out. I will add that I talked to someone at the manufacturer who said they did set up some of the 5.2s to run the jib halyard back down the forestay (inside the luff) and cleated off at the adjuster. He said that because the mast bent when trapped this avoided de-tensioning the jib luff.

Seems like the qr pins issue might be a debate worthy of the Hobie v. anything else battle. I'm currently planning to stay conservative on the standing rigging and go with convenience elsewhere. I would still welcome further information on how others make use of these (or other) devices, Nacra or not.

I do have one more question. If I remember correctly, the H16 got forward tension on the mast from the jib luff, not really the forestay. Is it the same for the N5.2? I guess what I'm really asking is how tight should the rigging be?

Thanks again for all the help.

Hey Dave,

First, thanks for your help. Sounds like our experiences have been very similar so far.

Along those lines, I was wondering if you know how the jibsheet blocks are controlled. Without some sort of traveler control it seems pretty clear that when under load they'll just tug forward until they jam against the tramp. I know there must be some sort of line control (I think I've seen it in photos) but cannot find anything in the manual or online. Have you dealt with this yet?

Or if anyone else knows, feel free to chime in.

you run a line to the rear beam to limit the forward pull, tie it off at the saddle and experiment with differnt positions until you find the best

someone said 31inches forward was best for their 5.2

when i got my 5.2 i searched for and save any pics i could of 5.2's and nacras off the net

has answered lots of Q

check the albums on this site for airborne's pics

tighten the rigging until the mast stops rotating smoothly then, back it off a hole on the forestay

1 of the many racing features of the 5.2 is jib luff tension adjustment at the mast base, i don't bother using it solo

erice - Very clear and concise in both cases. Thank you.

Just a couple of questions: What is the saddle? (My first thought was to tie off at the strap eye that the wire connects to.) Also, I infer from your description that this is not an adjustable (on the fly) setup, is this correct?

I actually do have airborne's pictures bookmarked. Went to check them after I posted and realized that's where I saw the lines, but still didn't know the setup.

Anyway, thanks again.

RLC,
Check out the pics here:

<code class="prettyprint">http://www.thebeachcats.com/index.php?module=pictures&g2_itemId=35563</code>

This guys has his setup dialed in really nicely and it is pretty much stock for a pre 1986 5.2. The way he has the rudders setup is really nice too, I saw it an immediately converted to that.

This link

<code class="prettyprint">http://www.thebeachcats.com/index.php?module=pictures&g2_itemId=35619</code>

Shows the jib block line disappearring under the tramp, he has a hole in the tramp where the line leads back to the rear beam.

This next link of a 5.2 redo also shows jib block wires going under the tramp, it also shows the barber hauler system which pulls the jib lines outboard on either side. You may or may not have these

<code class="prettyprint">http://radesignz.com/graphics/sailing/08/redo/IMG_2582.jpg</code>

The main site is also a really good source of pictures to see how you can setup your boat:

<code class="prettyprint">http://radesignz.com/graphics/sailing/08/redo/IMG_2582.jpg</code>

I will try and takes some pics of mine when I am back out at the cottage two weeks from now.

Regards,
Dave


--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Oh and one other thing, you probably realized the jib works completely differently than a H16. The main reason being that the luff of the 5.2jib overlaps the main sail. i.e. you can pull the jib clew back behind the front beam. This is also the reason you need a jib preventer.

D.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

RLC

What is the saddle? (My first thought was to tie off at the strap eye that the wire connects to.)

yes, that's the place

Also, I infer from your description that this is not an adjustable (on the fly) setup, is this correct?

correct, but if you put a couple jam cleats on the rear beam and just run the line through the strap eye on the way to the jam cleats it could be adjustable on the fly. some 5.2's are setup like that
however, the best position is usually dependent on the shape of the jib and that isn't going to change...

the strap eye on the front of the mast is where i have a short length of bungee with a clip on the end. once the sail is raised and halyard ball hooked on the heavy wire section will flap around unless held somehow. so i clip it to the bungee going to the strap eye. this keeps it under tension. the line section of the halyard i loop and tuck into a $1 shop mesh bag i sewed onto the tramp. the jib halyard gets tucked into the mid-tramp tube sleeve

i don't have any pics of my 5.2 up on the web but if you stop these videos at various points you can see just about everything there is to see on it

http://www.vimeo.com/5075989

0.55 for the jib block position lines, but sailing uni

1:05 for the halyard bungee

have since replaced the dodgy jib blocks (with nylon cam-cleats that wore and slipped the sheet), for the correct harken ones with alloy cam-cleats, (from the parts classifieds here)

http://www.vimeo.com/5258062

jib sheet jam prevention bungee 0:27

mast rotator, downhaul, jib halyard stowage in tramp tube sleeve 0:44

that last power boat was on a collision course with us until i turned to cut across his wake, where he looked up from texting on his phone and gave me a dirty look for surprising him like that



edited by: erice, Jul 07, 2009 - 07:32 AM

"...that last power boat was on a collision course with us until i turned to cut across his wake, where he looked up from texting on his phone and gave me a dirty look for surprising him like that."

Well, who the hell do you think you are, bothering him that way?

Very cool video. Thanks.

Nice to know the boat sails well as a uni. Figured I'd do that when solo 'til I got wired on the boat. Do you have any idea what the wind speed was when you were out on that lake? Do you have any trouble tacking, or tips on how to get the bows through without a jib to backwind?

Great Video's: Questions: Where/What lake is that? Where did you get those decals? What is the trick for tacking that cat without a jib.

I've got to get me one of those new waterproof digi's. Great videos. How did the fishermen feel about getting buzzed?

"Nice to know the boat sails well as a uni. Figured I'd do that when solo 'til I got wired on the boat. Do you have any idea what the wind speed was when you were out on that lake?"
not too sure, about 10mph?, wouldn't have usually gone without the jib in 10mph but 1 of the jib blocks cam-cleats was slipping and soloing without jib cleats isn't really possible

"Do you have any trouble tacking, or tips on how to get the bows through without a jib to backwind?"

in light to medium winds a 5.2 will generally coast through a tack well without a jib if you have enough speed when starting the tack
so when taking out friends or kids i usually leave the jib off and remove the tramp mounted jib blocks and sheet. still have to prepared to back the boat onto the new tack occasionally

(uncleat the traveller and push the boom and rudders in the direction you want to sail and hold them there while the wind, working on the BACK of the sail, pushes the boat back and around so you are facing the way you want to go. once the hulls are around onto the new tack, let go of the boom, center the rudders and SLOWLY pull in the traveller so the wind switches sides of the sail and the boat starts moving forward again and the rudders start to bite)
however, once the wind picks up it will punish any sloppy tacks by weather vanning the nacra's large and high hulls dead into wind

so when it's blowing strong enough that the waves are white capping i will remove the jib to make the boat more controllable AND try to hit all tacks with more speed and RELEASE the traveller and ot the main sheet when going into tacks

with the traveller released going into the tack all the boat speed can go into getting the hulls across the wind while the mast/sail just pivots on it's step. once the hulls are well across the wind SLOWLY pull the traveller back to center while building up forward speed again
this method does seem to kill boat speed coming out of the tack but when it's white capping i'm more concerned about keeping the boat upright and undamaged than ultimate boat speed


the lake is surrounded by volcanoes in almost the geographic center of japan, the high sides make the winds very fluky and gusty so it's quite challenge when the winds are blowing. most of the time however the winds are very light so the tall mast big sail area is perfect for pushing around just 1 person

the graphics on the boat were painted on with ordinary household enamel over our long winters

the "cool cat" name is the "chiller" font found in ms office. each letter was printed at A4 size, then enlarged to A3 size on a big copier, then cut in half and enlarged again to A3. giving about 50cm tall by 25cm wide letters that were cut out, taped to the hull and drawn on with pencil, then hand painted

similar for the nacra 5.2 on the hulls and mast with the lettering shape coming from a photo of the old cracking decal before it was pulled off

ideally the sail image would have been projected on to the sail with an lcd projector from an image on a computer while it hung over a garage rafter? the projected image traced around and then painted on

BUT, with no projector it was done old school, breaking the tiger's head into 1cm squares and transferring them onto a 10x12cm grid on the sail

painstaking work but a fun way to channel michaelangelo doing the sistine chapel:o)




edited by: erice, Jul 07, 2009 - 08:42 PM

RLC

I'll go pick up another rod from Nacra sometime this week (gonna opt for the conservative route there). If anyone has tips on replacing that rod I'd be interested.

RLC, please take pictures (before during after) while doing the repair/replacement, I have pictures of the Hobie 16 mast step replacement in the technical photo album but nothing for NACRA, you will help out the next 5.2 guy with the same problem.

Thanks,

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

How To Create Your Signature

How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar

How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
--

Hello 5.2 lovers!

If you guys need any pics or any help with your 5.2 just let me know. I have a 5.2 and wouldnt mind taking whatever pics you need. I have modernized my 5.2 a little and can help out if needed. I will be setting her up this weekend and will be more than happy to take plenty of pics. I have a 84 5.2 with new style mast, Smyth rags, equipped with a I17R spin. If you guys need specific pics post up what you need and i will take the pics this weekend when its set up. If you need pics or descriptions of other parts of the boat that doesnt require the mast being up i can snap them tonight after work. Glad to see there's still interest in the old 5.2. I love mine and will continue to sail it as long as possible.

Damon - be happy to, as long as I remember (mind like a steel sieve).

Turbocat - since I'm new to the 5.2 I'm always interested in hearing about others' experiences. Some of the questions raised in this thread might benefit from your reactions. Also, I'm interested in changes from stock that owners have made that allow their boats to be faster, or safer, or lighter, or easier, or faster.

As an example, I'd like to know how many have barberhauler setups and whether they find these to be useful or not.

I do run a barber hauler. In heavy winds it can be quite usefull downwind. I could live with out it but it didnt cost a whole lot to add it on the boat. I am going to start rigging my mast rotation very soon. I am copying the system off of the I17R/Nacra18 and putting the same setup on the 5.2. This will allow me to adjust the rotation from the wire and will increase the purchase immensly. I will take some pics of my boat and post them for you to see. You may get an idea from them or it may look like every other 5.2 out there.....It doesnt look like the rest. My front decks were glassed in after strengthening was done inside the hulls. I have smooth hulls in front of the crossbar now with no deck at all.....Smooth.

Here's a pic i had on hand of the smooth front decks

Hey everyone,
I'm also interested in any pics of 5.2's especially upgrades/mods/improvements. Even stock photo's are great to figure out how to set it up properly, the old manual leaves a bit to be desired. Some of that is due to the poor resolution of the copy on Performance Cat's website.

Dave

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Here's a simple and cheap thing to help the rudders...Increase the purchase for around $10-15. Two blocks and some line. This really helped me pull the rudders nice and tight. I have since added balls to the ends. I tried t handle but the leeward would flap around too much.


If you have to replace your pivmatic's buy the ones with the metal cleat or retrofit.

heres my pieced together barber hauler system.

Nothing special here..Pretty standard.

There are two types of diamond wire systems on the 5.2. One is a single bar that goes through the mast with little adjustability. The second system is pictured. Im told the system pictured is stronger and more adjustable. I dont know this to be fact but i have noticed alot of the newer boats use this system rather than the single bar?

These cleats are there to aid the bungee system. When the boat is beached or being moved on the wheels i place the line in the cleat and all the strain is taken off the bungee. If your bungee isnt 100% and you push the boat backwards up the beach and the rudder drops....SNAP. The bungee goes through the hole in the rudder...I have a small piece of line tied through the same hole, Its maybe two feet long. Changing the bungee is a pain so this is can help it last longer. If you dont want any spring assist from the bungee use airbornes system with the extra cleat on the bar.

Notice the eyestrap on the left of the beam. I have a loop tied in a piece of line...I feed the non looped end through the eyestrap on the left and then a few feet later i have a stopper ball. I have this on both sides with a piece of bungee tied to the stopper balls. When not in use the bungee pulls the line in and out of the way. This is a chicken line that holds me to the boat when sailing solo under spin. You can put one of those cam cleats on the harness end of the rope and have it adjustable. I use a small stainless caribineer on the loop. Jump out on the wire and then clip the caribeener onto the trap line or harness. The rope then pulls out through the eyestrap and when im fully extended the stopper ball hits the eyestrap and limits my movement on the wire...This is great for rough sea conditions. I always carry a knife so i can cut away in an emergency.

I dont actually use a caribeener...I use the thing that looks like a caribeener that has the threaded lock assembly. Forgot what the proper term is? I leave it in the open position and use it like a hook. You dont want to be locked in incase of emergency or accidental gybe. If sailing solo under spin you can leave the clasp/caribeener thing hooked onto the wire so you have one less thing to deal with.

I will probably have to post the pic tomorrow of the actual system so you can really understand what im saying.

Basically before you hop on the wire

erice nailed the info on tacking...Be sure to get as much speed as possible and ease the sheet going into and through it. If your running a jib and are having trouble tacking in the beginning backwind the jib. Get as much speed as possible, start the tack, release a fair amount of main sheet, continue turning, Now you go through irons and hear the jib fillup with air. The jib is still sheeted on the wrong side at this point. Once the jib fills up on the wrong side and your through the irons sheet to the proper side and slowy sheet in main as you build speed. This is not ideal for speed but it works when your new to sailing and trying to figure out weight placement on the 5.2.

I will post up rigging photos tomorrow if i get off work early enough. I could always make a video and throw it up on youtube. Ill try to answer any questions with pics but i can make avideo too. Video will take a week or so though.



edited by: TurboCat, Jul 09, 2009 - 06:38 AM

Great info. I love the glassed over decks. I have a 1982 N5.2 with the old style mast...I wish I knew how to convert it to swept spreaders or had a way to replace it.

I'd love to see any more pics you've got. The 5.2 is new to me (been sailing a P18 for the last couple years) and it was fairly neglected for years before I found it, so I've been trying to update an fix everything I can.

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

i always have problems finding this as it's in the technical gallery and i expect to find it in the downloads

it is downloadable pdf file of the nacra manual about 1985

it is earlier than the one on the nacra site which seems to be about 89-91

http://www.thebeachcats.com/performance/Nacra-printed-1985a.pdf

the 5.2 was made from 1975-1987-??? which were pretty much the glory days of beachcats and it went through quite a few changes before it was eventually replaced by the lighter/longer/wider/more sail area, nacra5.5

(the 5.5 being lighter than the 5.2 meant that nacra sold it in 2 versions. 1 for solo use without a jib and the other with a jib for crewed use)

one of the major changes over the 5.2's production life was the mast spreaders going from straight to swept

straight spreaders meant diamond wires, which allowed control of the mast's sideways bend characteristics. mast bend control in conjunction with mast rotation control was at the time considered an important tuning option. BUT rotating the mast to anything less than the ideal aerodynamic position seems to have cancelled out any benefit achieved by controlling the jib slot size

so when in the early 80's the tornado guys discovered that by raking the spreaders and really cranking on the downhaul they could bend the mast backwards and depower the sail more efficiently than releasing mainsheet straight spreaders were history

pretty soon all the cat makers changed from straight spreaders to swept spreaders and redesigned their sails to cope with the huge downhaul forces required

so if you have a straight spreader 5.2 ignore all the books that say to depower the sail by hauling on downhaul. the stock downhaul system won't give enough pull and the stick sail won't cope with 15 to 1 systems



edited by: erice, Jul 09, 2009 - 03:31 AM

Hey Turbocat, thanks for the picks! I just came back from one of my first decent sails on the 5.2 in 13 knot winds. The boat performed beautifully!

I did notice that the eyese holding my barberhauler pulleys were pulling out of the hulls however. It looks like the guy that installed them just rivetted them to the hull without any backing plate or anything (argh). I'm just going to move them to the front beam like on your boat. Looks like I get to learn a bit about epoxy and gelcoat now.

Erice, thanks for the info on the downhauls. I was wondering about the stock sail handling that much tension. Good to know before I wasted a pile of money on something that wouldn't help me.

Anyway I also managed to dump the boat and right it using the righting rope thrown over the top hull. Wow did it come up easy compared to a Hobie 16. One thing I did notice though was that there was a fair amount of give in the bottom hull as I walked along it. No cracks or anything, the hull just distorted a bit where I stepped and bounced back when I stepped off. Is this normal or should I be concerned?

Regards,
Dave

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

the hulls on the 5.2 have a lot more surface area than the h16 but have to weight about the same to be competitive with a h16, so they are pretty thin. esp. early boats with out the foam core

walking on them after a capsize does feel a little freaky however they seem tough enough

DON'T, however make blasting up onto the beach hobie style your normal beaching procedure or the hulls will eventual crack up

hobies have very thick bases and a strong triangular profile as they were designed for this, nacras and supercats etc were not

but those big round hulls support weight better than the vee hull on the h16

video from sunday with 3 adults and 2 children on a 5.2 in very little wind and no jib. probably 230kg, 500lbs and clipping along fast enough that the lubbers were happy. i suspect a h16 would have been a bit of a pig with that weight, though you would have been able to keep the jib on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ0WhsOR0Ds

early 5.2's had free floating universals? between the rudder cross-bar and the pintles. like all universals there is a position where they can bind and refuse to steer the boat. eventually nacra welded the parts together at a fixed angle. these can be bought from murrays...............or........you can simply lockwire the halves of the universals into the correct position with lockwire. experiment with string if you have to, there is very little loading and all you are trying to do is stop them rotating around to the binding position

Yeah, mines a 1981 so it is just fibreglass, no foam.

I definitely can't be blasting into shore where I am. I sail in the canadian shield area and it's only about 10 feet of sand and then you run into granite. :)

The hulls seem to be a lot more stable than the 16s too.

Not sure what you are referring to as far as free floating universals. I have a very similar system to what TurboCat shows on his pics above. Except the outboard pulley is rivetted to the hull. Or maybe I am misunderstanding or you are answering someone elses question.

On a related note, has anyone put a 'wear strip' on the bottom of thier hulls? I notices I have already scraped some of the new gelcoat of of the hull bottoms and was thinking that might be a good preventative measure for the future.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Wolfman

On a related note, has anyone put a 'wear strip' on the bottom of thier hulls?.

Yes, this is done regularly, especially for boats that do alot of beach landings. There is a California sailor that did "wear strip" in carbon. Not really needed unless you have a free supply of carbon, otherwise glass would work fine.

--
Philip
--

RE: On a related note, has anyone put a 'wear strip' on the bottom of thier hulls?.

I use Marinetex. 3-4 inch thin strip applied with a taping knife along the entire hull length and sanded smooth. (I just recently learned you can smooth it wearing surgical gloves and dish soap if you want to avoid the sanding.

Stuff wears like iron and the sand contact will further smooth it. I touch it up every spring. My solution elicits shock and horror from Nacra racers but it was a matter of preserving the bottom against the baby head rocks, pebbles and course glacial sand of Lake Mi. (Works great on daggers and rudders too!)

Thanks for that advice! I think I will have to get some marinetex for the fall. Does anyone have pics of applying this stuff? Is it a fairly easy process?

Does anyone else have comments on the boinginess of the hulls when walking on them after a capsize? Or keeping rivets from pulling out of the hulls?

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Easy to do. Because it is catalyzed you can smooth it with a gloved finger and dish soap. (Might be the way to go because it is a beast to sand.) You mix it and you have about 15 minutes to apply it with a putty or taping knife. Also you clean the area with rubbing alchohol or benzine. The instructions are pretty explicit. Best if you could leave your cat upside down for a couple of days to cure.

Unless you walk the hulls with metal spikes in your sailing boots you can't hurt them. They are however very very vulnerable to sharp rocks and sharp objects.

My 91 5.8na has foamcore construction and no flex.

PS: Nacra's were not made for use in surf conditions. I generally do not go out if we have breakers on the beach. (a: its really tough to manage the 5.8 in surf; b: I don't want to hit the beach at surf velocity.) I have gotten really good at dumping power regardless of wind and kissing up to the shore.

we surf launch every weekend and havent had any problems. I dont think hobies get out through the surf and back any better than nacra's ?

I power down, travel out, uncleat the main, and turn up into the wind right before i hit the beach and roll it in on my cattrax. Beach launching takes a little practice but is alot more fun to me than the other options. Nothing wrong with a little excitement! Here in TX our waves are petty small. gt300.com has some great beach launch photo's!

I beg to differ. Dealing with Dagger boards in the surf stinks plus the Nacra hull volume makes the darned things bob like corks. Hobies were made for the surf. They are tough and cut through the waves. The asymetric hulls dig in right away and give you great control. If I was going to launch in a place where there was a lot of surf, I'd go with a 16. I'm also talking about big short wavelength breakers that break right on the beach and can stand a cat straight up on her stern. Fortunately we don't have them very often.

Larry is right about the stand up on stern thing. I flipped bow over stern on Lake Michigan. Luckily the only damage was a broken daggerboard and bruised pride.

Wolfman

Does anyone else have comments on the boinginess of the hulls

Unless you weigh a bunch I would be concerned that there is something wrong. I'm #225 and do not have these issues, nor have I seen them or experience them on numerous platforms.

BTW, the 5.8 as well as the N20 are fantastic platforms in the surf, as are all beachcats, IMO.

--
Philip
--

Well that's what is great about online forums...Everybody has their opinions!
Ive launched Hobie16's in surf and Nacra's in surf and cant really tell a big difference. As for the daggers...Dont fiddle with them in the surf...Pull them up pre sand bar coming in and put them down post sandbar going out. No big deal.

In surf we place all of our weight on the front crossbar or even slightly up onto the bow's and have never had any huge problems. We have pointed her straight up in the air before....Normally in these conditions it doesnt matter what your on...Your bows are gonna go up! SURF'S UP!!!!

Timing the sets, good communication between skipper and crew, and a little luck will all help you surf launch your cat whether its a Hobie or a Nacra. If any of these key elements are missing it doesnt matter what kind of boat your on....Your gonna have a hard time. The key for us is really the communication and the crew letting me know when a big one is coming so we can prepare for it or turn into it.

The gt300 and the Tybee500 are both beach launch races and the Nacra's and Tigers both seem to do well.

I suspect you are working with surf/wind conditions where you can pick up some momentum before hitting the waves and a fairly board friendly drop off. I've had plenty of success sailing 16's through those conditions. What we are describing is having to shove off the beach, running like a bobsled team, right into a wave with no power, jump forward and pray you get your rudders/boards down and underway before you get knocked back or sideways. It sucks. (I dislocated my shoulder one afternoon trying to do this) Usually we have a NE coming straight on which creates these conditions on my beach. Hobies handle this much better than Nacra's. Those are the days I wish I had a 16 or my old T14.

No, not board friendly. It is simply learning to handle the rig. My 5.8 is set up specifically to deal with difficult surf. My side loaders for the daggers function flawlessly, so they will stay exactly where I put them. I also have the boards marked in 4" increments for depth. My rudders have oversized bungees that hold them up way above horizontal, and allow me to put them where they are needed.

A couple of challenges are to learn to sail the boarded boat without your rudders and boards. You should be able to turn without the foils and use only the main and jib to steer, second learn to back up your boat. Learning these skills will make the difficult surf, waves, and long shallow water a manageable experience. Time and experience will prevail, but you must learn to master your rig.

To add, there are certain beach, shore conditions you must evaluate and make the decision to not go, even when on the H16.

--
Philip
--

TurboCat,
I agree and really appreciate your comments on good crew communication. It is usually when successfully getting through the breakers that skipper and crew agree that it is time to pop a beer.

--
Philip
--

That last statement says it all!

Check on the loaders/markings but I do need to replace the rudder bungees with something more robust. This looks like a pain as I had a good look at them when I replaced my ropes and pivmatics this year. And yes you are right, Lake Mi does not have tides and sand bars which makes the skils you describe essential. Something to practice.

Problem on the worst of these days is getting 45 degrees on the wind after driving straight out into the surf. I also need to grind out the filler in the trunk bottoms that the previous racer owner put there to make the boat "faster". It takes too long to drop the boards as first they must flush the beach debris. Cost me a late start in a club race this Saturday extracting pebbles that got wedged when my crew put the boards down too quickly.

lately our winds have been coming straight onto shore. I have a different strategy than most in Surf. I like as much boat speed as possible. I feel powering up quickly is essential to breaking the surf. I would rather punch a wave at a bad angle than going slow and turning into irons going over a wave. I have had the best luck with worrying more about momentum than my angle of attack. I leave my rudders down slightly, Fight the weather helm and build as much speed as possible. If you have enough speed u can generally punch the wave and come out victorious! The key (for me) is not pointing up high enough that you get stuck in irons in the surf. Even if its a big one i still try to maintain some speed and not turn totally into it. Im not gonna let it hit me broadside though...Theres a fine line there that can not be easily described on the internet.

Ill leave the surf launch debate to you guys.....Im going home to work on the boat. I will take some pics!

I love the Surf! Am i crazy? yes i am.

Excellent discussion guys. I'm learning a lot.

Just to follow up on Wolfman's concerns about what he's stepping on when righting the boat, I wanted to ask if any of you can confirm that you can or do stand on the daggers in order to get more righting moment. I was assured by someone who should know that the daggerboards are engineered to take a lot of load (he used the weight of the boat as an example) and that as a consequence it is perfectly okay for even a 200+ guy to get out on those things when getting the boat back up. He added that of course one wouldn't want to be jumping up and down.

Anybody do this?

You can but I would not. Replacements are VERY expensive.

I have in the past, but as Lawrencer said they are expensive so i opted for a murrays waterbag for a fraction of the cost of a new dagger.

Im really leaving now

Have a good one, will post pics tonight or in the morning



edited by: TurboCat, Jul 13, 2009 - 10:40 PM

RLC, I righted my cat by myself last weekend and didn't need to stand on the daggerboards. My mast is really well sealed but I was still surprised at how easy it was to right with a bungee attached to the dolphin striker and thrown over the top hull. I sealed everything (mast top casting and all rivet holes) using a latex tub sealant. Probably should have used a marine caulk but this seems to have worked (of course the mast may have been well sealed before).

The other thing that was told to me (but I haven't tried) was to make a ghetto mast float you can just attach a tetherball (if you have any idea what that is, it's like a basketball with an eyelet on it) to the top plate on the sail. Apparently it bangs around a bit but doesn't damage anything and keeps your mast from sinking (and looks moderately less silly than a hobie bob). I imagine an inflatable dock bumper would work just as well.

As far as hull flex, from what I am understanding from the posts and some of my own research is that Nacras that are pre 1985 are fibreglass only construction and tend to flex on the sides (not the top of the hull). Post 1985 boats are foam sandwich, are much stiffer and don't flex. So I am surmizing that as long as I don't hear any crunching and don't find any localized soft spots I'm likely OK.

Also since I live about as far away from any ocean as you can get I don't have to deal with surf (Winnipeg, Canada). Thank goodness, it sounds like a real pain. :)

One other question I have. I went out for about 5 hours yesterday and came back and emptied what looked like about 2 gallons of water from each hull (probably less). I know that most cats tend to take on some water as they get older. Is this an abnormally large amount? Should I leak test and seal them right now or can I wait until I take the boat apart in the fall?

D.


--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

My suggestion would be to go ahead and fix your problem. Use a air supply with little pressure through the plug holes and soapy water. A blow dryer on cool works well.
2 gallons of water is too much over that period of time. I have seen worse but if it were my boat i would go ahead and test it with the soapy water. Leak testing doesnt really take al that long to do.

When i sealed my mast i did the following: Drilled out all rivets, removed head, placed a cooler lid on top of my mast and pressed down on it leaving a mark on the cooler, cut out this shape, apply generous amounts of silicone to the sides and slide down into mast about 1 foot, do the same with a second piece of foam, apply more silicone to sides where it makes contact with mast. Now you have a internal hobie bob. Even if your mast develops a leak in the head the mast is internally sealed and can only take on 1 foot of water (or whatever depth u set the foam). I used a silicone from the autoparts store that looks like a tube of caulk which made it easy to get down in the mast for the final seal.

It's likely leaking from where the barberhauler eyelets are pulling out and maybe the ports (the hulls themselves were recently filled, sanded and gelcoated). I just find it hard to believe that such a small crack on top of the hulls could leak that much (but I've often been wrong). I'm hoping it wasn't a shoddy fibreglassing job or something more difficult to deal with (which is why I was worried about the give in the hulls).

What would you use to seal the holes and cracks? Marine Silicone, Sika-flex, MarineTex or another type of epoxy?

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

i seal around the ports, plugs, etc with 3M 5200.

I would try the soap and see if its obvious. The dagger trunks have been known to leak so dont forget to check in there.

I have had my decks on the boat leak before but if you just got gel coated i doubt its the decks.

Hey Everyone, Thanks for all your advice. I sealed all the rivets and where the barberhauler eye straps pulled out with 3M 5200. I also replaced the drain plugs (the old ones were pretty decrepit). Went out yesterday (without barberhaulers) for 4 hours and the hulls were almost bone dry! Now I just have to fix the barberhauler system. I still like Turbocats solution and will probably adopt that one. Easier, quicker and less messy than doing the fibreglass work and though bolting required to put them back where they were.

Regards,
Dave

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Great news Dave! Leaking boats are no fun and can limit your ability to sail long distances. Now that its not leaking you can focus on sailing and not sinking!

Yeah, I'm finding this boat is a DREAM compared to our old Hobie 16. Easy to rig, no pitchpoling, lots of bouyancy and it really cooks on a reach!

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Quote

Here's a simple and cheap thing to help the rudders...Increase the purchase for around $10-15. Two blocks and some line. This really helped me pull the rudders nice and tight. I have since added balls to the ends. I tried t handle but the leeward would flap around too much.


If you have to replace your pivmatic's buy the ones with the metal cleat or retrofit.

If you do this it will take twice as much force to trip the pivmatic.

True but I have seen this mod about 4 more times in different places. The rudders on the 5.2 require a LOT of force to get them up tight and this looks like a good way to overcome that. I'm don't think that doubling the required kick up force is going to do much more damage to the rudders than the normal kickup. If you quadrupled it you might be in trouble. If you hit sand (like where I am) you will probably won't do much to them. If you hit rock your are going to nick them regardless.

Truthfully I consider the PivMatics to be just a fail safe in case something goes wrong. With daggerboards on the boat I think thier usefullness is seriously reduced while sailing (you will definitely kill your daggers before the kickups work). I am not planning on counting on them to kick up the rudders under normal beachings (I don't have them installed yet and haven't had a problem with the manual rudders). They are just a measure of insurance in case I can't get back to the rudders after I lift the daggers.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

I think the pivmatics protect the transom more than the rudders. My rudders on the 5.8 were hard to pull down till I replaced the plastic shims and adjusted the pivot bolt. Here is a HOBIE with the transom ripped out. http://www.thebeachcats.c…pictures&g2_itemId=10836



edited by: skarr1, Jul 27, 2009 - 09:13 PM

Ah, that actually makes more sense now that I think about it. Yikes, what a mess! I will test out how much force is required to pop them with and without the block when I get around to installing the pivmatics.

On another note I have been looking at Airborne's and Erice's boats. It appears that theire jib blocks are attached to both the front and rear beams with wires. Mine are just attached with 1/4" line to the rear beam. Is this a standard or modified setup? What advantage is there to attaching them to the front beam? Is it just to keep the blocks in place?

Regards,
Dave





edited by: Wolfman, Jul 27, 2009 - 09:34 PM

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

The line on their boats allows the jib block to be adjusted fore-aft.

I would imagine that since yours is attached only to the rear beam, its essentially in the rear most position allowed by your setup. If you have the line coming out of a pocket on the tramp, even if the length of your 1/4" line is allowing the jib block to be forward of the line's exit point in the tramp it is still functioning as though its cleated at the exit point from the tramp. If it's all above the tramp, its functioning as though you have it cleated from the rear beam. Their wire holds the block down to tramp level so that as they adjust the position forward or backward the direction of force pulling on the clew of the jib is changed.

The farther back that your angle of sheeting is, the more wind you're spilling from the top of your jib.



--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

the stainless line between the beams stops the jib blocks from being pulled up by a big wind in the jib

the line from the rear beam allows adjustment along that line

the 5.2 has a big overlapping jib and getting the jib down on the tramp probably is important for maximum efficency

early model 5.2's had this line completely above the tramp

later models ran it below the tramp near the beams but brought it up through reinforced slits in the tramp near the aft of the daggerboard wells

Dont worry about the pivmatics popping as they still work fine on my boat. I have popped them a few times and the rudder doesnt get damaged and the pivmatic still works.

Good to know Turbocat, I was pretty sure that there couldn't be enough force to damage the transome 2 times load considering the sideways loads they experience. That being said it's always good to have confirmation.

As far as the jib wire is concerned. Do you think that it is reasonable to substitute 1/4" low stretch/prestretchd line instead of wire in the short term? I have some vinyl coated wire but I am waiting for my swaging kit to get here (hopefully by the end of the month).

I will likely put grommets in my tramp at the correct locations and run the wires underneath (that should clean things up a bit too). What do you use to prevent the wire from wearing against the the tramp (or rather the tramp wearing against the wire)?

Regards,
Dave

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Wolfman

As far as the jib wire is concerned. Do you think that it is reasonable to substitute 1/4" low stretch/prestretchd line instead of wire in the short term?


yes should be fine

I will likely put grommets in my tramp at the correct locations and run the wires underneath (that should clean things up a bit too).

i was going to do that too but was concerned that there might be too much movement for just a grommet and my tramp is original...

What do you use to prevent the wire from wearing against the the tramp (or rather the tramp wearing against the wire)?

mine has 2 bits of garden hose covering the wire each side of the jib block
Regards,
Dave

I run low stretch line under the tramp that is connected to an eye strap on the front and rear beam (under tramp). I will post some pics later tongiht for you to see. I will be working on my boat tonight so when im done i will post them.

I use vectran line instead of the wire cable for my 4way jib adjuster. vectran has no creep issues like dyneema does (creep is elongation over time... not stretch)

High Modulus line (dynema, vectran, etc) is stronger (and cheaper) than steel cable.. and much more comfortable when you sit on it.

The draw back of this line is you lose about 1/2 its strength with knots.. but since 5mm can lift a car (4500 lbs) its not really an issue.

but 12 braid (without a core) is VERY easy to splice, and is a great way to get into splicing. you can buy a 4mm selma fid from Murray's for under $10....