Did anyone check this guys rig out? I can appreciate the technicality to the design and build of this rig.....but why

What a waste of a good H16

--
TurboHobo
H14T
H16
P18
G-Cat 5.0
P16
--

Hi Turbohobo,

Thanks for the good words on the design of the rig. It has been a lot of fun developing it.

Your question is fair ? Why? My answer might not make sense to a pedal to the metal purist like you, but here goes. Short answer: I want a quick ride, to be in the water essentially single handed ten minutes after driving up, and I want complete control over sail power so I don?t end up in the drink.

Longer answer: I am purely a recreational sailor, and my favorite thing is spending time with my loved ones - preferably on the water! ? and the more time there the better. I used to be a monohull sailor, then my kids made comments like, ?Well, it?s kind of fun, but it?s kind of slow.? The moorage felt really expensive after that, so I looked for a quicker boat I could keep beside my house.

The answer would be obvious to you ? I got a beach cat (Tornado by Sailcraft of Canada). That was a lot of boat! Due to circumstances I only got it out a couple times, but the set up time was a real pain, so I looked for a way to get on the water easier and quicker, preferably single handed. I saw some bipod (A-frame) mast rigs online and thought that might be an answer to the set up issue. Some sail rigs, like crab claw and others, lend themselves to this type of mast.

Being an engineer I enjoyed reading Marchaj?s ?Sail Performance? book about rigs. There has been a lot of discussion about crab claw rigs, which Marchaj found to be great stuff in wind tunnel testing, but real people have found the performance to be elusive. I did my own wind tunnel testing and couldn?t get his numbers to windward, but did get respectable power off the wind when I added some important design details.

The rig in the pictures and video is the result of my findings, which I bolted to a Hobie 16 that lacked some of its rigging. I set up the rig easily and single handed in six minutes, ready to untie the boat and launch. I can instantly reef when the wind builds, and because it is so easy I often reef when gybing for a really smooth turn. No, it is not as fast as a standard rig, especially close-winded, although over about 60 degrees to the wind it does pretty well. I am still learning how to get the most out of it. It is considerably faster with only two people, but with three as seen in the video it was still fun. It points well under full sail into the wind ? in the middle video clip I was trying to get inside the pilings without tacking and was about 40 deg to apparent wind.

My kids are catching a love for sailing, and who knows - some day I may even get my wife out there if I let her control the reef line! Not for everybody, but I am curious if there are other recreational sailors out there that find this interesting?

Take Care,
Gerry

I attempted to post a video in that Beach Cat video page-here's hoping. It's not clear the YouTube video link I put in the post above worked, so here it is in plain URL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHugLA5A5Tw

is it as fast as a hobie with the regular sail?

I have to confess, I have not sailed side by side, and I am still learning how to get the most out of the rig, but I don't think the crab claw is as fast on most points of sail as a standard rig. It does pretty well especially between a close reach and broad reach-but then that is the best for almost any sail. It is definitely faster with two people than with three on the video. I'm not a fast rigger and I like easy, so for me this means more quality time on the water.

very nice!

good to see some other flavors in a vanilla world and the crab claw rig really does draw the eye

do you have any still shots up anywhere?

what is you A frame made of alloy or glass?

hopefully i will be able to repair the old bezaan rig on an old rowing dingy for my kids this summer

Thank you. Variety is the spice. I like the looks.

I put an album in the technical category you might enjoy. I also have a couple slide shows on YouTube, one of which shows how it goes together
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PX6Sp-QNW4

plus a 19 second clip showing how I raise the mast.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6SfJYIuyBo

The mast and spars are aluminum alloy tubing in 8 ft or less sections with joining hardware.

The regular mast is sealed to help keep the boat on its side in a capsize. If your mast does not provide enough flotation the boat will turn all the way upside down and be very hard to self right.

Gerry, I mean no disrespect on your crab claw rig, quite the opposite in fact, I can appreciate the time and effort and ingenuity that went into the design. In fact a major downside to owning and sailing a H16 is the time to rig for sailing, even though I built my own solo mast step rig, it still takes me 45 min to get on the water, so I usually make a day of it. And pedal to the metal it is, I won't go out if the wind is less than 10 knots, the need for speed on a catamaran is addictive, trapped out with the tiller extension in one hand, sheeting line in the other, total trip. Lot of hard work though but it keeps me in shape,..........though I still can't figure out why my kids don't want to go sailing with me???

--
TurboHobo
H14T
H16
P18
G-Cat 5.0
P16
--

skarr1

The regular mast is sealed to help keep the boat on its side in a capsize. If your mast does not provide enough flotation the boat will turn all the way upside down and be very hard to self right.

Thanks for the insight. Perceptions like yours is one reason I wanted to talk about this. I wonder if it could work to fill the mast sections with styrofoam cylinders? Have you ever heard of anyone using that?

sealing the mast sections is recommended

rather than fill them it may be easier make carve some close fitting end plugs of microcell foam and then seal them in there with silicon sealant

silicon sealant can also be used to seal any rivet holes etc

test the sections by holding them underwater

for sale here http://www.murrays.com/mm…30112&Category_Code=C-RI
These are used to help. Since your mast is shorter, I don't know if it would be large enough.

turbohobo

... In fact a major downside to owning and sailing a H16 is the time to rig for sailing, even though I built my own solo mast step rig, it still takes me 45 min to get on the water, so I usually make a day of it. And pedal to the metal it is, I won't go out if the wind is less than 10 knots, the need for speed on a catamaran is addictive, trapped out with the tiller extension in one hand, sheeting line in the other, total trip. Lot of hard work though but it keeps me in shape,..........though I still can't figure out why my kids don't want to go sailing with me???

Count me as a (vicarious) fan of you high octane guys. I jumped off the garage roof with my brother when I was a kid, but I am content to watch you guys bail into the drink on those high speed video clips.

Is your sailing really a little too radical for your kids? Sounds like the opposite problem I had with my monohull. Do they like it when you tone it down or aren't on the hairy edge of dumping it? I have one son who is always ready for action-he has even been talking about skydiving-and another who is more easy going like me. Guess it takes all kinds.

I am thinking about starting a discussion thread about different styles of cat sailors. You have high octane and something a little de-tuned between that and most monohulls. One of the things I am trying to do with my rig is make it simple to tune the power level and easy to go after work or without commiting the whole day. Seems to me if we get kids exposed to a style of sailing they can relate to, and if it is simpler, more will get the bug and join us for both kinds of water fun-fast and faster.

I grew up on the coast in South Africa, a typical little surf nazi, did not have much money so bought a 2nd hand board and lived to surf, the bigger the waves the better. Surfed shortboards untill I crushed 3 vertebrae in my neck, bodysurfing a huge shorebreak and got dumped into the sand, headfirst. Switched to riding a longboard, easier to paddle but kept breaking those as I rode it like it was a shortboard and they just can't take those snaps off the lip. Then I discovered the Mini-Malibu, inbetweener, not short but not long either, paddled like a longboard but maneuverable like a shortboard. So I was back in the game, able to surf the bigger waves, with bigger surf comes the "rush", the emotions of fear, elation, panic, dread, exuberance that blend together forming an emotional high.

Then we moved here to the USA, great land and people, dissapointing surf, terms like knee-high surf, is that standing on the beach, or standing on the water? never figured that one out. Lived in VA for a while, in the Hamptons, would head to the beach when hurricane's were blowing past, everyone else going in the opposite direction, managed to surf some 8' waves, measured from the front of the wave, from the surface of the water to the top of the wave.

So, stuck here in the Mid-West, what is a man to do, aha! he exclaimed, sailing, the bulb went off, but not just dull monohull type sailing, catamaran sailing. So I found a H14 down by Stockton Lake, taught myself to sail on that, sold it after a couple of months and upgraded to the H16. Now the "rush" is back, wind blowing 20-25 knots, trapped out on the side of one hull, 4'-5' off the water, tiller extension in one hand, mainsheet in the other, leeward hull almost buried under water, just waiting for a gust to heel the boat over harder.............. so that's why the kids don't like sailing with me she's 13 and he's only 10.

Maybe I should just get a daysailer(shudder)..... I think I will sell my H16, (up for sale on this website), and upgrade to a H18.....what do you think?

--
TurboHobo
H14T
H16
P18
G-Cat 5.0
P16
--

I really like the step up to the H18, but for me it was as much about space as performance. For me at 6'8" crawling under the H16 boom got old and the added space sure is nice. Not nearly as many boats around, but since I don't race it doesn't really matter.

However the H18 is a lot more boat to handle in 20-25 knots solo. A lot of fun with 2 people but I don't think I would go solo in those conditions. Then again I am on lake Michigan so I get waves to go with the wind and not a pure adreneline junky anymore .

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

Quote

Maybe I should just get a daysailer(shudder)..... I think I will sell my H16, (up for sale on this website), and upgrade to a H18.....what do you think?

Actually daysailers are fun in good wind! the first (and only time i sailed one) i crewed for my 74 year old sailing mentor. It was blowing about 20. It was a blast. The first heat we came in 4th (we did not practice at all before so i was "learning the ropes"). We won the next 3 heats, and the final heat.. we were the overall winner! He asked me, and i agreed to crew from him next fall (he doesn't win with his regular crew).

As to the H18 upgrade... if i were you... i would look at other cats before you purchase a H18. I have owned both H16 and H18 and where there is some "upgrade" qualities to the H18... but IMHO, it is not "all that".

It is an old design... heavy as snot (400+) and my H18 was constantly in need of repair. My beams were cracking.. my castings broke, the rudders broke, etc.

It wasn't a bad boat.. and i learned how to sail on it (i was clueless when i owned the H16) but i think you know how to sail and could get a more "responsive" cat and really love it...

Now... $$$ is a different subject. You will have to look hard and pay more to find a more modern cat...



edited by: andrewscott, Jul 29, 2009 - 11:08 AM

So......maybe a P18 or even the P19????

--
TurboHobo
H14T
H16
P18
G-Cat 5.0
P16
--

when i got home last night i looked at a picture on my wall of my H18 and started to regret how poorly i spoke of it... :)

It was a good boat.. sure it was heavy, no fun in waves, old, needed new gelcoat and was not powerful enough (or at least made me work much harder than my current boat does) and slow by todays standards..

BUT it was clean (as in less lines), simple (in comparison to all the lines/controls of a modern cat) and CHEAP (to purchase, i got if for $400)... so i felt a little bad...

that being said, i would not trade my mystere for anything.. if i break it,... i have no idea what i could get that i would like more... i love the size (5.5), power, hull volume, handling etc...

I think the H18 and P18 share most of the bad charictoristic... bad in waves (even though they have very different hull shapes), underpowered, old design, much to much frame flex ... etc

BUT the P19 is a different story! its a mini Tornado! small centerboards, hull volume, more power... etc! thats a good call in my book

I also like Supercat 17's but the mast is a bear and they are very wet! the self tacking jib option rocks upwind but you pay for it downwind...

good luck, keep us posted

turbohobo

I grew up on the coast in South Africa, a typical little surf nazi, did not have much money so bought a 2nd hand board and lived to surf, the bigger the waves the better.
...wind blowing 20-25 knots, trapped out on the side of one hull, 4'-5' off the water, tiller extension in one hand, mainsheet in the other, leeward hull almost buried under water, just waiting for a gust to heel the boat over harder..............

Must be something special in the South African water! My friend Mark P, I can't remember is he is from Cape Town or Joburg, was a crazy surfer, windsurfer, now kiteboarder. On Memorial Day he was divebombing my friend and me on the cat, seeing how close in front and behind he could buzz us. Flippin good times.

I just watched the latest video of the crab claw H16, and the link is now in the video section.
http://www.thebeachcats.c…-viewdownload-cid-2.html

Pretty smooth, the only suggestion I would have for future videos is not to have 3 on board, the boat was riding kind of low. If it's truly easy to rig and sail then demo it single handed. Less weight can only make it look better.

All sailmakers and boat designers try to get the lightest/best skipper to demo there products. For some reason when people see Randy Smyth win a race with a new boat design or sail, they think it's the new boat/sail and not Randy that made it go fast!

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

How To Create Your Signature

How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar

How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
--

GerryMorelli

On Memorial Day he was divebombing my friend and me on the cat, seeing how close in front and behind he could buzz us. Flippin good times.

I hate being near those guys.. one wrong move and they will cut your sail off... get to close and they can probably even cut a shroud off!

We had a young man on a kite end up in power lines... fall 30' onto a gaurd rail and of course i ended up with his chute wrapped up in my forestay. i had to pop the chute (they are inflated) and cut free from about 30 spectra lines. the chute was destroyed and the kid nearly died...

GOOD FUN!

andrewscott

It was a good boat.. sure it was heavy, no fun in waves, old, needed new gelcoat and was not powerful enough (or at least made me work much harder than my current boat does) and slow by todays standards..

Hobie 18 no fun in waves?

Have you never seen the "Sharing the Wind" video?

What's your idea of fun? I've been in all kinds of waves, launching through surf, riding/surfing, all pretty fun stuff!

I recently had a race at Ocean Springs (Around Deer Island) on my H18 where the back side of Deer Island turned into a broad reach "with the waves" run and had all the fun I could handle. And that was with about 450 pounds of men on board, try that with the delicate new models!

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

How To Create Your Signature

How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar

How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
--

I would be curious what boat is fun in waves and what the difference is. I have had H16, H18M and SC20 in waves ranging from a couple feet to 10+ feet. I am not a big fan of sailing in big waves on any of them, but think the H18 has handled them the best. Also the dryest of the 3.

I try to stay in the 5' and under range when I can and 3-5 is very common here on Lake Michigan. The big Pacific rollers are a completely different experience from the Lake Michigan waves.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

i have been waiting for you to chime in Damon...
Yes "FUN in waves" is subjective...


BUT IMHO... long flat hulls with less volume (like h18) get bounced around alot, as do the H17 and the P18 with its long asymmetrical hulls. If you enjoy going up and down and up and down and getting slowed down each wave.. then there you go...




Here in the gulf, west coast of Florida our waves come at a very fast frequency.. much faster than most ocean waves...so you hit the second wave before you finish riding the first wave... after a few hours of this.. I am beat down... occasionally we get it bad.. they build up for days in the gulf and can come out, even in a sunny, light day...and pummel us...

we also get some amazing wave action at low tide in our 2 local passes.. hurricane pass and sand key pass (2 local entrances into the gulf from the protected intra-coastal / bay area) flat everywhere but crazy in the pass... it can get real hairy, esp if there is powerboat traffic, kayakers and of course all the guys fishing from the beach who can't understand when we yell "tend your line".. they yell back "tend your boat".

One hatefully time, i capsized in these crazy waves in the pass... i was on the wire, had a wave from one direction, tide rushed the other way, turned me around from windward to Leeward and over she went (over my head)... i nearly didn't right the boat in time as i was pushed into breakers... as i got it up, the jib filled with air and it took off.. i had to "Indian Jones" my way up the righting line (while it was doing about 15) and as i got onboard ( i was so exhausted from righting and hand over handing my way to the boat.. I almost could not get onboard).. i hear others yelling... watch out for that channel marker... as i went to steer, my sheet was wrapped around the rudders/traveler. i had no steering.. luckily i missed it and recoved the lines.

As i was being beat to death by the waves on the ride home, my spin hoop would go under water... flex up and shoot water 10' in the air, only to rain down on me.. all the time my engorged spin bag is shooting micro streams in 1000 directions our of 1000 tiny holes..... this went on for about an hour before i got into the calm of the sound...

and my all time favorite feature from waves.... my pfd rubbing up and down on my nipples until they bleed... any idea how long that takes to heal.... MONTHS!!! or how bad that hurts?




edited by: andrewscott, Jul 30, 2009 - 04:29 PM

andrewscott

and my all time favorite feature from waves.... my pfd rubbing up and down on my nipples until they bleed... any idea how long that takes to heal.... MONTHS!!! or how bad that hurts?

LOL! That's hilarious even if TMI...

try taking the piercings out first next time!

Ok, now the Crab Claw thread is completely off the tracks. Sorry Gerry.

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

How To Create Your Signature

How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar

How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
--

lol... yes i know its TMI!!!

But it a part of why i hate waves... so i had to include it.

PS - I have no piercings

What Claw thread? oh yea.... LOL

Well, hey, I'm enjoying the thread. I was out on the Columbia River a couple weeks ago, and judging by the whitecaps and the big courthouse flag it was 20-25. That would have been OK for me, but the tide conspired with 2-3 ft rolling and breaking swells broadside. As I've said, I don't like to dump it, so I didn't have much fun. We parked on the island and took my friends power boat, picked up a pizza and waited for easier times.

20-25 is a lot in any sailboat.. i think it is wise to be "safe" and wait for better air/waves.

I would caution you to not have your kids out in extreme weather as your rig is so unusually.. no telling how it will handle big air... who knows it may take off like a helicopter

Not to worry, I filed a flight plan with the FAA just in case.

I had the sail highly reefed, so the wind wasn't overwhelming, but I was nervous because the waves were broadside. On my to-do list is to improve windward performance when highly reefed.

hahah... cool.

PS i had a helocopter crash into the gulf on me last friday (and when i say on me, i mean 300 yards from me).... all people lived, but it didnt look to fun!

Dear Gerry

I just joined beachcats today because I wanted some advice on rigging.. and I found your crabclaw. Go figure... Here is what I'm thinking and I'd like to hear your thoughts. I want to design a junk rig for a cat. I've purchase the "How to design a Junk Rig" book but I have never seen one on a cat. I've seen gaffs on and crab claws on out riggers but no Junks. So I'm worried that there might be a very good reason you don't see them.

Any input/insight is welcome.

r

--
rgranger
Smith Mountain Lake, VA
Hobie16, Balboa26, Rhodes 22, O'Brian Windsurfer
--

Hi R,

I quickly looked in Marchaj's "Sail Performance" book, and about the only thing he had on junk rigs was a short description of Hasler's 1960's Folkboat Jester. I don't have any experience with that sail, but every rig has its strengths and weaknesses, and the key is to match them to your sailing. I can't imagine a junk is faster than a typical Bermuda rig, but it may have other attractions, especially if you like the appearance.

I didn't start out wanting an unusual rig, I just wanted a simple solution to fast single handed rigging my kids enjoyed. It so happens I ended up with a sail whose ease and performance and looks I really, really like! As I said, variety is the spice! One of my wishes is for more people, especially younger people, to discover the flavor of sailing that floats their boat, regardless of what everybody else is doing. The end result will be better for all sailors-cruisers, high octane and everything between. Keep me posted on your progress.

Gerry

Hi Gerry

So after I typed you yesterday I found this link to a page

where another guy had done almost the same thing you did

http://www.rclandsailing.com/catamaran/construction.html#hull

It is a nice page with a lot of details about his trials and tribulations etc. I learned a lot from it and I'm guessing you will find a kindred spirit here...

I also found this page where a guy put a sprit rig on a 16' cat

http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/?page_id=2

it is also a very well done page with a lot of good insights.

As soon as I sell my Coronado 25' I'm going to start the construction of my cat in earnest.

Best
r

(Rob)



--
rgranger
Smith Mountain Lake, VA
Hobie16, Balboa26, Rhodes 22, O'Brian Windsurfer
--

Hey Gerry since I first saw your videos a couple of days ago I've been trying to locate you so I could correspond with you about your rig. (BEACHCATS, of course! I should have known.) Because I too have been experimenting with crabclaw rigs on various boats the last few years for all the reasons you describe so well. My rig (and boats) are quite different from yours however, but I am very happy with the crabclaw and continually tweak it for handier sailing. I no longer have any Hobie Cats (I have owned four) or Prindle Cats (I have owned two) but I still have a Sea Spray 16 cat and three monohulls. My current "test sled" is a 1966 aluminum Grumman Flyer 16 foot monohull that I rescued from a barn back in April. It came with a nice roller trailer, mast, boom, etc. but only one sail-the spinnaker! So, I tossed my crabclaw rig in it that I put together two years ago and took it sailing the day after I brought it home. My rig is very portable since I use a single short mast and the 14-foot spars from a sunfish. But the performance from so small a sail is amazing and the rigging so simple that I usually step the mast and hoist the sail once I'm on the water in well under five minutes. Send me your email address and I'll send you some pics. I look forward to discussing our "thousand year old rigs."