A few recent posts on sailing preferences got me thinking about speed and style. A lot of guys like to push it, and I have one son like that; I am more mellow, and I have another son like that. My daughter and another son are in between. Variety is the spice? And I'd like to see all of them on the water.

(To my high octane friends: you might have trouble with your gag reflex while I ask these questions, but humor me!) As a more recent convert to two hulls I am curious-I know there is a continuum here-what portion of beach cat sailors are what you might call "high octane", pedal to the metal sailors looking for the edge; and what portion are more laid back, maybe like a cruising beach cat? Maybe you can think of a scale with units: from 1 to 10 (apply unit here-whitecaps? octane(1-100)? screams? damons?) and venture a guess how many sailors you know fit into which group.

And secondly, after my experience with a simpler rig, I wonder how many people have a boat sitting around too much of the time and would go sailing more often if the set up was fast, easy, single-handed, and they had a higher degree of control over sail power level? (see disclaimer below)

My brief sampling of comments on preferences I found. Please forgive if out of context to shorten:

"And pedal to the metal it is......I won't go out if the wind is less than 10 knots, the need for speed on a catamaran is addictive,..."
"Now the "rush" is back, wind blowing 20-25 knots, trapped out on the side of one hull, 4'-5' off the water, tiller extension in one hand, mainsheet in the other, leeward hull almost buried under water, just waiting for a gust to heel the boat over harder...." [Robert - turbohobo]

"...at 6'8" crawling under the H16 boom got old"
"the H18 is a lot more boat to handle in 20-25 knots solo. A lot of fun with 2 people...
...not a pure adreneline junky anymore" [Scott - smfinley]

"My "ideal sailing wind guidelines":
00-02: swim
03-06: kayaks with sail rig
07-12: daysailor or "light" catamaran sailing
16-20: "fun" catamaran sailing
21-26: "wild" catamaran sailing
27-35: sailboard time!" [Doug-p182-590]

Where I live: I learned to sail on a monohull moored in the Columbia River in Portland. We didn't get out often enough, and I was frustrated by not having the boat in my driveway to work on, but mostly I enjoyed it-just get me out on the water with the ones I love! The killer for me was when I heard my kids say, "Well, it's kind of fun, but it's kind of slow." The moorage felt REALLY expensive for the value that moment! That boat went out. So what to get that is faster and I can park at my house and trailer with the family car? I was looking for a Hobie and none showed up, then I got a good deal on a Tornado. A lot of boat, and definitely fast.

Due to circumstances I only got it out a couple times, but the set up time was a real pain, so I looked for a way to get on the water easier and quicker, preferably single handed. After some research I noticed an A-frame mast with a different rig, such as a crab claw could work. I am an engineer, so Marchaj's book "Sail Performance" was an interesting read. He did wind tunnel testing and found the crab claw to be great stuff, though in practice real people haven't been able to reproduce his results. I did my own wind tunnel testing on a 1/6 scale sail, and got really good performance numbers between a close reach and a far reach, but could not get his numbers to windward.

I designed, built and bolted my A-frame mast and crab claw rig to a Hobie I found that lacked some rigging. You can see it in the Crab Claw Rig folder in the Technical photo album. Without rushing my set up time is just under 6 minutes single handed, not including untying the trailer straps or launching, so I am happy with that. I can set it up in the launch line when my son is at the wheel. I can instantly reef the sail to a fraction of full power, and since I have no desire to dump it that is really handy. I often reef on gybes so they are really smooth. My wife even offered to go out with me if she could control the reef line!

I am still learning how to get the most out of the rig, but even with three people and winds mostly 5-10 kts it was a fun outing (unless you are high octane ) . A little video clip is in the Download section and YouTube:
http://www.thebeachcats.c…-viewdownload-cid-2.html
It's not quite as fast as a standard rig, though in light air the other day I reefed a little for some sail shape and did very respectably next to my friend's Hobie 16. With some sail shape I pointed pretty well too, inside ~40 degrees apparent wind. I need to get a GPS for a speedometer, but with only two on board and 10-15 mph winds we were leaving a nice wake both upwind and downwind.

Disclaimer: This has become a long epistle, but I am trying to get a feel for the level of interest in this rig. After good personal results and positive feedback from others I am considering marketing this directly to cat owners (Damon graciously said it was OK to ask). It can ship UPS or FEDEX, assembles in a couple hours and bolts on the frame without drilling new holes. The base presently fits an H16, but with a new base it could fit almost any sail boat.
What do you think?

Thanks

putting a safe, slow, fast to rig, rig on a cat

is

imho

like putting a prius hybrid drive in a

sports car that was given to you for free

sure i can see the benefits

it's just that what attracts me to the sports car in the first place is it's single minded pursuit of speed and handling and it's "damn the torpedoes" statement of intent

today i entered my local community boat race

a very mixed bag of boats from a 1925 cat boat (that may very well actually weigh a ton), to a bunch of lasers, with teens AND crew. in between were lots of wooden and old frp boats sailed in a half hearted way

the wind picked up beautifully and my 27 year old nacra absolutely blitzed the field with me at times struggling to keep the boat at angles of less than 45degrees while on trapeze

the leeward bow was dipping in and out and at times the main beam was creating huge amounts of spray while i jammed my toes around the shroud in an attempt to get a little more stuck to the hull

no doubt i looked like a sailing hooligan on the edge of control

but the buzz from making something that big dance around like a synchronised swimmer while i pulled her strings is still fizzing in my veins 6 hours later

variety is the spice of life

and as much spice as you can handle

is what a lot of cat sailors are looking for

so, i admire your work and vision

but think that like a sports car that gets better than 50mpg

providing intelligent answers to emotional needs

is not yet well enough understood to take to the bank

http://www.vimeo.com/5075989

sorry for the video repeat

but if i was sensible

i wouldn't go sailing in circles at all





edited by: erice, Jul 31, 2009 - 06:24 AM

Thanks for the feedback. Really nice video, makes you feel like you are right there on the water. (Sorry you lost your hat) I'm amazed you can hang on to the camera and drive.

Well, it's quite a bit better than a Prius; I'm still trying to quantify how much. I need to get a few clips with one or two people in good wind instead of three in light air. It was just how the evening played out.

So...I'll put you down in the high octane category unless you object...

I recognize it is entirely conceivable few of them visit a website geared to high performance sailing, but what percent of cat owners do you think are leaning toward the other end of that spectrum? or maybe have a cat parked because they want more "easy"?

I think there are maybe more like 3 major categories of people. The true competitive adreneline seekers, then a group that isn't on the edge but likes the performance and speed of the cat, then a cruising beach cat group. The last group typically sails Hobie Getaways for example.

I sail out of Wilmette, IL on Lake Michigan and we have all 3 types here. We have over 100 boats in mast up storage on the beach. One extreme, we had a guy snap his mast last year because they had 3 guys on his boat in 25+ knot winds flying his spinnaker, I think it was an Inter 18. We also have people that don't like "waves" and only go out on lake michigan when it is fairly smooth, or load 9 people including kids on a Getaway and float around the lake.

I would probably fall in the middle category, i love the 10-20kt wind and flying a hull hiked out with crew, but once it gets over 20kts the fun starts to go away for me and I start to have to work and worry more then I want to.

If you are looking to sell your design I would highly recommend some good video showing how simple it is to rig and how it handles on the water with 1 or 2 people on it. It sounds like one target market for you is the solo sailors so you need a video showing how it performs in those conditions. How well does it tack? I usually used the H16 jib to help tack, but with the single sail how does that work?

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

i think there are many types of sailors.. but in the CAT world.. i see mostly... racers and cruisers as the biggest demographic (IMHO)

most racers will sail in any weather.. but only for races.. it is rare they go out for non race cruises... this is not "always true" but in my exp... most of the racers don't sail unless there is a race.

I think MOST cat sailors do it for the speed, and adrenalin.. if they are not into the speed... they get a mono hull because they have lots more comfort...




edited by: andrewscott, Jul 31, 2009 - 11:54 AM

Andrew I agree there is a big difference between most racers and cruisers. But I think in the cruising group there are a couple different levels of sailors. I wasn't even thinking about the racers since they would not really be a target for this sail design.

I agree most sail for the speed, but where I sail we have a lot of boats that seem to be there for the sun. The owners roll the boat to the water but only go out once or twice all day, spending the rest of the time on shore. It is bad when you have a 300 yard beach and can't find a place to land since there is a boat everywhere. Not to mention the boats that still don't have their masts up or tramps on.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

"I'm amazed you can hang on to the camera and drive"

helmet cam

waterproof digicam mounted in front of an old foam bicycle helmet

i think your crab-claw rig is a GREAT idea for putting on boats that have lost their rig or home built boats that need an off-the-shelf rig. there are some very interesting home-built ply cats that when finished to show the wood look stunning with craw-claw rigs

http://jotaneves.wordpress.com/2009/02/04/proximo-barco-catamaran/test_assem_7/

http://jotaneves.wordpress.com/2009/02/04/proximo-barco-catamaran/

very polynesian!

just not so sure that enough people can be found that would want to take a perfectly good rig off off their cats to fit a new crab-claw

i think there are basically 2 markets

people who buy new boats and people who buy used boats

most people who buy used boats, given an extra $2000, would simply trade up their boat for a newer model than spend that cash on a rig that would detune boat performance...

what would be good is working with club med or someone to get well developed crab-claws on some existing resort boats. they might pay extra for the sheer photogenic value of a crab-claw cat on a sunset beach

as mentioned a good video topic would be a side by side comparison of a normal h16 and your CC h16 rigging up and sailing off. both boats side by side on trailers in a race to rig and sail off the beach

similar to the opening few secs of the video on this page

http://www.wetamarine.com/

would love to see more around

When I first saw the video I thought that you hit a windsurfer!

I guess my main question is "Why?".

Thanks erice, for taking the time to put some thought into this. You have some great points I'll have to explore more.

There are some really pretty boats out there, and personally I have always found the Polynesian canoes to have a certain romance of the sea about them.

The other day I helped my friend take down his H16. While he was gathering up his picnic chairs and other stuff from the beach I took my rig down (I have it on video from another day at 5:50 without hurrying). If it is a LeMans style start from the parking lot across the lake I have it made-but then that is not what sailing is all about!

rpiper138

When I first saw the video I thought that you hit a windsurfer!

I guess my main question is "Why?".

Rich, great question. The long answer is up above in the opening post, but the short answer is I want a fun ride I can rig single handed in a few minutes and have complete control over the power level. So far I am very pleased with the ease, peace of mind and fun level.

So using Scott's categories above do you think of yourself as high octane racer, or high octane middle category?

Using Scott's categories, I guess I would be between. There isn't really a Nacra fleet in my area and the portssmouth fleet doesn't race very often, so I don't really race much anymore. I don't really go out in less much than 10 knots, and prefer 15 to 20.

The rigging single handed would be nice. I am close at the moment, but need a second person to set stay tension. Rig time is about 45 minutes. I also couldn't rig alone with an aluminum stick since I can't lift it beyond a certain point and don't have any kind of setup for a winch.

If rigging were that big an issue I think I would find a place with mast up dry storage rather than convert the rig and lose performance.

i'm a non racer speed hungry addic. if you ain't first your last. true setting the h16 up every time sucks but if it was that big of a deal i would have just bought a sunfish or lazer. you can always rig up a single handed mast rasing rig. me im not sacrificing speed for ease. sheet in and hold on to your pants.

Quote

i'm a non racer speed hungry addic. if you ain't first your last. true setting the h16 up every time sucks but if it was that big of a deal i would have just bought a sunfish or lazer.

If this is true... you should look into a modern cat and sail plan.. the power upgrade will knock your watersocks off

hahah i failed to add i am also a poor college student. hopefully someday...