Ok, I apologize for the long post, but I could use some serious help from those with fiberglass/repair experience. I was sailing on the lake last sunday in about 10 mph winds and hit a stump (or something!) 300 yards off shore . After I and my crew recovered from the stop I discovered the port daggerboard had been hammered back into the lower portion of the daggerboard well. We returned to shore before she filled completely with water. Thank God!

So now I have this PITA repair to do before I can sail some more... and I was just getting really addicted too! (this is my first cat)
I'll post a bunch of pics so hopefully u can see exactly whats involved. Im thinking of purchasing the West Systems epoxy/hardner etc to do the repair, and will probably purchase enough to re-glass the bottoms after this season as they could really use it.

Here's what I'd like to know:

1. Are there other equally strong non-Bondo products that are less expensive then West systems or is that pretty much the best way to go? (sorry im on a budget)

2. How the HECK to I do this?? lol I mean, I can reach my arm though the port hole and get to the repair from the inside of the hull - but my hand will barely squeeze much less move in the well.

3. If I go with West systems or another 2-part epoxy do i need to mix colloidal silica or some other filler with it (so many to choose from!)

4. Ive read about folks fixing structural cracks/voids by shredding fiberglass cloth and mixing the whole mess up together w/ the epoxy then pushing this into the crack. Any thoughts?

5. Do I use the same epoxy mix to patch my daggerboard?

Im guessing whatever method, the less sanding the better considering the location.

Here are the pics... (last 2 for inspiration purposes :)
The crack/hole runs about 7" up from the bottom, along the middle of the aft inside daggerboard well. Its about 3/8" wide at the widest spot. The "cut" made by my daggerboard also extends about 3 1/2" into the bottom of the hull aft of where the daggerboard slot should end.









(the colored fuzzy stuff on the pic showing the inside crack is old carpet lining near the top of the db slot)

Ps - I'd like to buy the epoxy and supplies this weekend, based on the ideas, info, and suggestions you guys have,
Thanks in advance!

Gordon



edited by: rdemmin, Aug 22, 2009 - 09:02 AM

No tips on how to go about this kind of repair?

Anyone... Bueller ...Bueller...

So Im going to bite the bullet and buy an expensive epoxy system to do the repair and then have enough left over to re-glass the bottoms since they've been worn pretty bad from sliding on the beach.

Im trying to decide between a) West systems, B) Mas systems 3) System 3 (silvertip?) ... then there is a cheaper 4) "Marinepoxy" but not sure how that compares.

Suggestions on picking 1 of the above for strength, long lasting, easy to work with, and then to also use for the bottom re-glassing?



edited by: rdemmin, Aug 23, 2009 - 08:52 PM

you seem to have a good handle on what you'll need to do

some would say stick with what the boat was built with, which is probably cheap polyester resin

doubt the additional cost of west epoxy over mas epoxy is required

a lot will depend on how much space you have from the port

seems a good idea to clean it out well, dry it well and then maybe start the repair from the outside by stuffing in saturated glass threads with a slightly thickened mix

use disposable gloves

and think about a hobie if there are more stumps down there...

I can speak on the Hobie idea. I was reaching off 12 mile road on Galveston about a mile offshore when my H18 Magnum Port dagger clipped something that felt like concrete. I had myself and 3 others on board. It was a very hard hit. The dagger ended up with a 2" gash however no damage to the hull at all. I will always be impressed with the construction Hobie has used. Yes, the hulls can de-laminate but storing indoors will always protect your investment and keep your boat sailing for years.

Just curious: why would you go to a 16 after sailing an 18? Having owned both (currently an 18 Magnum), and realizing that the 16 is slightly lower maintenance (and despite Hobie's bad decision to discontinue the 18), I couldn't go back to a 16. The 18 just handles so much better (though you do have to worry about the dagger boards hitting things!).

Well, that's a great question. I completely agree with you.
Having had a P-19 as well I feel the 18 sailed better than any beach cat I have had the privilege of sailing or owning. I am just wanting a smaller boat that I can step the mast solo with and sail when I want to rather than looking for crew. And, I am not sure I would not prefer a Nacra 5.0 or 5.2. The H-18 is a great boat in all points of sail, just ready for a smaller boat.

In terms of your repair all I have used is the West System Epoxy and have really liked the results I got with it. For that type of repair I would recommend adding another port on the aft side of the trunk. This would give you much better access to the crack. Trying to reach around the trunk constantly to do the repair will get old fast. Also if you only have the one hole you will have to do everything by feel alone, if you have the second hole you might be able to look in one or have someone else look in while you lay down the glass.

I would recommend starting from the inside. Try to push the hulls back into shape if they deformed during the crash. Then maybe put tape across the bottom of the boat and lay glass down from the inside and use the tape on the outside as a kind of mold. Also make sure you sand the existing glass very well to get a good clean and prepared contact surface. If your repair does not stick well to the old glass all your effort will be wasted, and trying to repair the repair will be much more work.

The repair work I have done I have used multiple small pieces of glass cloth in several layers. Letting the epoxy cure between coats and sanding before putting more down. You can put a two maybe three layers of cloth down at a time but, overlapping edges, but not much more then that. I found at a farm supply store getting their cow obstetric gloves was very helpful. They are shoulder length disposible gloves, keeps the epoxy off your forearms and elbows. I would usually put a nitrile disposible over it to have the glove more form fitting in the fingers.

I had heard you don't want puddles of epoxy, use as little epoxy as possible to fully wet the glass cloth and the connections between the cloth. Excess epoxy becomes brittle and has very little added strength.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

Scott thanks for you suggestions, good idea to put the tape accross the bottom outside and and pack from the inside... *sigh* i see much sanding and swearing in the near future.
I was wondering about the idea of cutting out the edges to make a "clean" hole with a hack-saw, or just leave as is (dusting, washing, cleaning of course) and stuff the epoxy glass mixture in opening... I want it to be stronger than it was before so it's less likely to happen again, even if i hit something.
- Also thanks for the gloves idea- there is a Rural King near by! (the visual image of "cow obstetric gloves" *gag)

Here are a few better pics








Oh, as far as the hobie goes... im the only 18 footer on my lake, the other 8 cats are hobie 16's - and though I do like them and appreciate their many pros - i LOVE my solcat! (just gotta watch that draft lol ... damn shallow lake!!)

Thanks again for the ideas,
((geesh those are big pictures... still working on digital photo skills




edited by: rdemmin, Aug 24, 2009 - 09:06 PM

I would not use a saw to make a clean hole, but as you sand it down you can knock off some of the larger bumps and smooth out the holes. Also when sanding make sure to use a resporator. You don't want to breath in the sanded fiberglass. These last pictures make the damage much easier to see. It looks very fixable to me, just need some time and patience. If you rush the repair now, it will give you headaches later, probably better to take your time and fix it right the first time.

I would do a 3 part repair, starting by reinforcing the joint where the trunk meets the hull bottom. Then once that is cured, I would repair the trunk and the hull bottom at the same time. Then let that cure and run more glass over the connection point between the trunk and hull, tying all the repairs together. Remember when putting the glass down to work out any air bubbles and get it laying as flat and smooth as possible, sanding between each layer.

Good luck and post pictures of your progress.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

Another option may be to look for used replacement hull.
You may just get lucky in your search.

Best of luck.
Gene

On the "next cat" question: what about a Hobie 17? Great for going solo, but then, I guess, if you had someone else along, it wouldn't be as good. There's a guy who sails a NACRA 5.2 out of our marina, and he solos it a lot. Do they still make the 5.0? No daggerboards to worry about.

Glad to hear that you prefer the Hobie 18 to the Prindle 19!

A H17 would be good solo or with crew. It just seems I have a better chance at a good H16 coming up in my area than an H17.
They do make Nacra 5.0's although all 5.2's will be older, not that that's a bad thing.
I will get something by next Spring and I am ready for a beach cat again.

ah, good reminder about the respirator Scott ... I was going to use a cheap painters mask i had on hand - but i better step it up.. inhaled fiberglass dust doesnt sound fun. Ive purchased a gal of Marinepoxy from boatbuildercentral.com. Should be enough to do the repair and reglass the bottoms. Ive not used it before but read some good reviews and its more in my price range than System 3 or West systems.

Crash, hey if it was up to me I'd have 3 of these Solcats by now and be working on them all!! lol ... good thing the Mrs is here to bring me back to reality!

Any thoughts on adding a filler to increase strength in the mixture? Ive read about colloidal silica, aluminum, graphite powder, etc?

I hear ya about buying more Solcats. I just got a Nacra 5.2 and I'm already looking at the classifieds thinking to myself 'I wonder if my wife would let me get a 5.8, and/or an Infusion'.

Someone else can probably give you a better answer on adding colloidal silica but there are a couple of really good books on fibreglassing that you may want to check out:

The Fiberglass Boat Repair Manual by Allan Vaitses
and
Sailboat Hull and Deck Repair by Don Casey

I just got them (unfortunately they are out at the cottage right now or I would look up the answer for you), and they give some good advice for questions like that and actually how to do the repair work so it looks decent.

Unfortunately they don't deal with getting into really tight spaces like you will have to. I am interested to see how it can be done, since I have daggerboards myself and am likely to do something similar one day.

Regards,
Dave



--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

West system epoxy for sure. every polyester resin repair ive done has cracked again. and theres nothing as stiff and strong as west system.

Wolfman

Unfortunately they don't deal with getting into really tight spaces like you will have to. I am interested to see how it can be done, since I have daggerboards myself and am likely to do something similar one day.

From the repairs I have done, the thing I learned is make an access hole if you need one. I have added deck port holes behind both my rear cross bars to allow access to where I needed to repair my boat. The other advise for tight spaces is take your time, don't short cut the sanding or prep work just because it is hard to get to. Nothing worse then a repair that doesn't actually repair the problem. And most repairs inside the hulls you will be doing primarily by feel alone followed by inspection with mirrors, then minor adjustments.

It is nice to be able to do the repairs in the off season when possible. Didn't look like Gordon has a choice on this one though.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

I've just done a very similar repair to my F16 Stealth, call me if you wish.

Dave Farmer
509 276 6355

Dave are you done? how did it turn out?

Wolfman Dave thanks for the book titles, ill be looking for those.
Im still debating additional access ports. The hull is more rounded behind the daggerboard trunk than I'd like and it would not add to the comfort or aesthetics much. Your're right though, Scott, it would make the repair so much easier.
As for taking my time, thats where it gets tricky...
Im a perfectionist by nature so my inclination is to be overly particular and precise w/ EVERYTHING (just ask my wife), so I am confident I'll do my best on it --- however,Im also a bit impatient when I realize my sailing season is shortening and Im obsessed with getting back on the water and leaning how to trapeze mo better.

I'll do my best to take pics of the repair so it may help others along the way.

Thanks again!

Incidentally, the Solcat has a 2 1/2 ft draft w/ boards down.... stupid shallow lake! @$#!&^$*&#%@!*%#@)!!!

Has anyone ever explored how to avoid this kind of damage in the first place besides the obvious solution of sailing in deeper water . What about design modifications like swinging daggerboards that would pivot back into a centerboard trunk for storage or in case you hit something (like on a lot of monhull sailboats)? Or what about building the daggerboards to breakaway when they hit something hard since it would be easier to replace a broken daggerboard than to repair a shattered daggerboard trunk? I guess the trick in this case would be to make it strong enough not to break due to the normal lateral forces encountered sailing but weak enough to give way before the centerboard trunk if you hit something really hard.

I'm just a newbie to beach cats and I admit that I don't know beans, but I was just curious if anyone has ever heard of ideas on how to avoid this problem. I've hit enough things with my monohull centerboard to know that the chances of hitting something with one of the TWO centerboards on the catamaran are pretty good.

Sacrificial daggers are a good idea. Safer too... as you can still sail without sinking. All comments about the repair are great. Acetone to clean the areas. Wait until epoxy is nearly cured, then add the next layer. You get better adhesion. Fill the last two coats using only epoxy with fairing filler added (makes a thick paste - good for verticals), and trowel smooth. Sands great. Epoxy alone does not keep out water. Must use repair gelcoat. West Marine has a small qty for $38. 3 coats should do. Follow mix instructions exactly. Foam brush it on. Feather the edges.

Quote

What about design modifications like swinging daggerboards that would pivot back into a centerboard trunk for storage or in case you hit something (like on a lot of monhull sailboats)? Or what about building the daggerboards to breakawa

several older cats have retracting centerboards, olympic tornado's, prindle 19's, mystere 5.5's and 6.0's, etc. they are nice but not as efficient as dagger boards and have not really been included in new beach cats for over a decade.

they call them "kick-up" boards but it is pretty rare that they retract on their own. It is more like you hear and feel them hitting bottom and you rush over to move them forward (or in my case pull on a line i have rigged). So far i have broken the trunk wells 3x and the results are very wet. the wells are very thin and delicate.

the amount of stress on boards is rather substantial, i doubt any break away system would last with regular use.

current designs are playing with curved boards (nacra 20 carbon, hobie wildcat, a-cats, and bmw /oracle (americas cup) and in some conditions create enough lift to get most of the cat out of the water

BUT even the toughest of cats can hit something unexpected and suffer severe damage, or the best case .. simply break the board (like what happened TODAY in the Tybee 500 (but it seems the team had a spare board with them)

u can buy a cat that is boardless, but they typically suffer by not tacking as well, or pointing as well, and typically draw more water so they are even worse in shallow areas (or at least more prone to getting in trouble)...

nacra usa's replacement for the 5.8 is the nacra 580

it has a nifty swingback daggerboard

probably costs more to make though

http://www.nacra.us/580/580dex.htm

For cutting out the damaged areas, &/or feather in tight spaces nothing beats a Dremel tool. I bought a cheap knock off made by Jobmate for $10, along with a 300 piece kit, another $14, several years ago. It was a great help after the wife hit the only rock in the lake with our Invitation. Last year some kids learning to sail ran out of water & ideas all at the same time & drove her heavily into the dock. The Dremel with a wheel made short work of cutting & drilling out some balsa core, sort of like dentistry without the pain.
The one crash resulted in the mast snapping forward hard enough to form a crack in the tube into which it drops. I used a double layer of condoms,(gives a whole new meaning to the term "double bag it" )blew them up slightly, wrapped the wet cloth/resin around them, then slid the tube down into the mast step, then blew it up as hard as I dared, & tied it off. This forced the patch to perfectly conform to the inside of the step cylinder, & no sanding was required. So far it hasn't leaked. Thank God for Canadian condoms that are required to hold 10 gallons suspended before failure, & that's 10 Imperial gallons!
You might be able to place a piece of plywood/board into the slot,(just as temporary backing) then a bicycle tube between the board & your final layer of patch in the dagger well. The tube will force the patch to conform, put some Saran wrap on the tube, & the resin won't stick to it.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Quote

Thank God for Canadian condoms that are required to hold 10 gallons suspended before failure, & that's 10 Imperial gallons!

are these made for elephants?

Nope, just us normal Canadians. Winters are looong up here.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

You know what they say, the looooonger the winter, the shooooorter the growing season.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

Ha HA funny stuff. The 10 gallons is for "bursting strength". They hang samples, pour 10 Imperial gallons in, they have to hold up to that stress level.
I guess if your 16, that would be a comforting statistic. IT was also great for chucking water bombs off the top of the Bank building!

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Not having time to read all the posts... has anyone told you yet that this repair has to be done from the inside out? It is fully repairable with just a little planning. No.... you do not have to cut a hole in the deck. If you would like a procedure let me know.

Quote

IT was also great for chucking water bombs off the top of the Bank building!

yea, who wouldn't LOVE being covered with 10 gal of fluid from a condom? (me)