So I purchased a 5.0 a month ago or so. I've sailed single hulls in the past so not new to sailing, but relatively new to cats this small. I've had the boat out about 5 times up to this point, but all less than 10mph winds.

We took it to muskegon, MI yesterday where we thought we were going to get 15-20mph winds, we got more than we bargained for. Average winds of 20-22mph with gusts to over 30. Crew weight was around 380lbs.

A few things I noticed and hopefully you guys can chime in with some collective knowledge.

1) I attempted to rake the mast as far back as I could, AKA the top forestay adjustment position. However, even in that position, I could only make it to the second position on the shrouds, and the mast didnt look very raked, what should I do? Buy a longer adjuster for the forestay or get a longer forestay line?

2) May be related to above but I was having an EXTREMELY hard time keeping the tiller straight when going upwind at almost any angle, it was wanting to turn me into the wind (somewhat of a safety net, in a way, but NOT fun) I mean, it was taking a TON of my force. Any ideas?

3) It was very difficult to keep the sail with any good shape. I was fully downhauled as much as I could, but I was dumping from about 50% all the way up completely, Should I be travelling out and sheeted hard? Or the opposite? I've never really been in this kind of wind before.

4) The bows were diving HARD when lifting a hull. I was trapped out right at the rear crossbeam and my partner was hiked out right there with me. Our best (or worst) moment was my first ever pitchpole. The bows dug in, which sent me sliding up the hull on the trap, which obviously caused a chain reaction pulling the mast down in front. It was exciting to say the least. What tricks are there to get the bows from digging so hard?

5) Once in the water (ehem, see above) I unhooked the jib and completely unhooked the mainsheet system, righting it was actually very easy (and I found out my mast is sealed well!) However, once righted, I found myself near the dolphin striker and my crew was on the outside of the hull. The boat, even with sails fully unhooked, was still trying to GO! Granted, not very fast, but fast enough that I was slightly being dragged and I was extremely worried about losing grip and the boat taking off without me. Anyone had this situation? I eventually made my way up to the bow and climbed up, but it was very difficult to do because there is nothing to grab onto to get up to the front, i was finally able to grab a bridle shackle on the bow to pull me towards the front of the boat. What tricks are there to A) Keeping the boat from taking off and B) getting back up on the boat. I thought of some sort of mini rope ladder off the stern crossbeam attached out of the way with a bungee, but...

Lastly, was this just too much wind for the 5.0? I felt like it was.

Other than the pitchpole, the boat performed flawlessly and I am amazed at just how this thing accelerates. Now I see why you guys like beach cats! Unlike single hulls, these boats remind me of the mechanical bulls. "Sit down, hold on, and shut up"



edited by: gordonjs, Sep 28, 2009 - 08:29 AM

I have never sailed Nacra 5.0, but I would guess the 380 crew is a little heavy for the boat. Which could have led to some of the bow diving problems you had. also yes in high wind typically you want to travel out and then sheet in hard, this makes the sail flatter which works better in high wind. You might want to try adjusting the rudders to help with the weather helm, maybe rake them further forward?

20 steady gusting to 30 can be a tricky wind condition, a stead 30 would actually be easier in my opinion, but the 50% gust increases make things hard to plan for. Glad you had fun and everyone and everything came home safe.

As for getting back on the boat I usually have one hand on the hull and one hand on the front cross beam. Can do similar in the rear but run into the tiller. If you right the boat with the mast and and bows pointed towards the wind, with the wind coming under the main as you raise the mast the boat will typically point into the wind after being righted.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

1) My dealer told me Rig tight and mast must be 90 Degrees. No rake to adjust for conditions like I used to do with my HT14.
3) Flat, out and tight but never cleat in.
5) High freeboard and light weight make this a tough boat to manage in a hard blow. I learned the hard way myself with my 5.8NA in year one being out in conditions like you describe. We needed a flotilla of helpers! I keep a 30'safety line tied to dolphin striker now. Pretty hard to make that climb when you are exhausted. I've considerered tying some rope to the sides for foot loops. Reality is we don't venture out above 15 usually. 15 is more than enough for Nacra.

Agree with Scotts points.

Thanks for the tips guys.

Im still just worried about the bow diving. I mean, I was as far back as I could get and so was my crewmate and it still was diving enough to get to the tops of the windward hull.

Did you have the traveler in fairly tight and the main sheet let out a lot? That would give the sail a cupped shape and induce more dive in your bows. In those conditions I might have my traveler half way out. Makes tacking more difficult, but keeps your boat under control better. I will also cheap and try to point further up wind to take some of the forward force off the sail and not do a broad reach unless needed.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

I was traveled out probably around 1/2 way with the mainsheet as tight as I could get it from the angle I was at. I only have a 5:1 on this thing at the moment (am thinking about an 8:1 for overkill)

I am also looking at 8:1 (Harken rachomatic blocks) for my H18, remember the extra ratios add that much more line to pull in when you need to adjust something. Hopefully can pull the trigger on the cash this winter to do it.

You can always point up wind to allow for sheeting in. My concern is the smoothness for sheeting out when you need it done NOW. I have discovered it difficult to push a rope Even though I try everytime.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

Dunno..I'm not sure I'd even worry about it. The conditions you were in were pretty rugged and the 5.0 is a small boat but pretty good at avoiding pitch pole. A H16 in those conditions would have had you swimming a LOT more.

Add another chainplate (or extension of some sort) to your forestay and rake the mast back a little further. That will make a HUGE difference with the bows burying in the water as soon as you get up to speed.

I had the same problem w/ my 5.2 when I first got it. It had two chainplates linked together on the forestay, so I took one off and used the top hole, and the boat would essentially power stall...any power in the sails at all would force the bows down and stop the boat. I added the chainplate back and dropped the mast back a couple of holes. This made the boat FLY until it come to an abrupt halt and send skipper and crew flying. It actually beat us up really good. I then dropped the mast back 1 more hole and now when it really powers up Crew and I both trap out as far aft as possible, but the bows stay above water and the boat moves quickly.

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

2) If this means you had excessive weather helm, I had that problem earlier this summer and found I had switched my rudders. Beached her on a sandy shore, and while I was switching out the owner came down to see what was up. Turns out he was a retired professor, used to sail cats in California, and brought me a soda. Discussed beachcats for a while and I sailed off. Nice helm after that.

--
eddiecat

Nacra 5.0 (destroyed in storm)
Hobie 16 (restored)
Nacra 5.5- amalgam "Franken Cat"
--

yurdle

Add another chainplate (or extension of some sort) to your forestay and rake the mast back a little further. That will make a HUGE difference with the bows burying in the water as soon as you get up to speed.

I had the same problem w/ my 5.2 when I first got it. It had two chainplates linked together on the forestay, so I took one off and used the top hole, and the boat would essentially power stall...any power in the sails at all would force the bows down and stop the boat. I added the chainplate back and dropped the mast back a couple of holes. This made the boat FLY until it come to an abrupt halt and send skipper and crew flying. It actually beat us up really good. I then dropped the mast back 1 more hole and now when it really powers up Crew and I both trap out as far aft as possible, but the bows stay above water and the boat moves quickly.

See that's why there is so much experience on this site! Classic moving center of effort back through mast rake. I however am still told that ANY rake on my 5.8na is a no no.

eddie, yes, weather helm. The odd thing is that it almost seemed like I was getting lee helm when tacked to the other side. (New development!) I believe that one of the tiller arms is slightly bent, which would give me a bit of toe (it's bent so that the back end of the tillers would both be pointing slightly inward. I don't know why this would effect it differently depending on the tack, but I'm sure this has something to do with it. Ordering a new arm!!

As for digging in the bows, I'll look at getting an extender, but why, lawrencer, do you think that rake is a bad thing on the nacras? I'm trying to figure out why it could be a no-no.

And yes, I figured that we were out in a little too much wind when I realized that we were able almost fly a hull with JUST the jib. (we dropped the main before coming up to the ramp, no beaches around and I'd rather not beach on concrete)

and eddie, rudders can't be reversed on a nacra because of how the crossbar is hooked up for the tiller, so at least I know it wasn't that.

Really, we had a great time, even though there were moments where I felt that I was quite under-experienced for the conditions and the boat.

Any cat sailors in the michigan area that need a crewman or want to crew on the nacra to help me gain some experience this next season? :)

gordonjs

And yes, I figured that we were out in a little too much wind when I realized that we were able almost fly a hull with JUST the jib. (we dropped the main before coming up to the ramp, no beaches around and I'd rather not beach on concrete)

One way to depower in those wind conditions is to go out without the jib. The last really big wind I was out in on Lake Michigan I was out with just the main. Made a huge difference in controlling the boat, made tacking more difficult, but I am sure I would have been swimming if I had my full sail plan in use.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

Scott, I thought of about 50 feet out in the water. :) It's a good point though, it would also probably help move the force towards the stern a bit to keep the bows out of the water more. However, with this wind, I think sailing with ONLY the jib might have worked too! (there were a few monohulls out yesterday with just the jib)

Sometimes I think the jib helps lift the front and other times feel like it helps drive the front down. Not sure if I am going crazy or if that is true. But it does change the balance of the board, no question.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

However, if I was getting MASSIVE weather helm WITH the jib, I can only imagine what it would have been like without.

Gordonas,
Don't go out with jib only in a blow. You will not be able to tack, and at best will have a difficult time, and the loads on the rudders will be enormous. Beachcats and monos with keels are completely different animals. You can do it on a mono but thats no reason to try it on a 400# beachcat . . .

--
Philip
--

I think you should be able to exchange the rudders on your nacra. They don't come in a left/right version. That being said, the weather helm was probably caused by the toe in problem you described and you may not have had the rudders tight enough to the transom. Any angle at all to the rear on the rudders makes my 5.2 have huge weather helm, and getting them up tight in a big blow is tough.

The Nacra hulls with the knife edge bow can take quite a bit of diving without pitchpoling. I regularly run my 5.2 to the top of the leeward hull and above without problems. Obviously though you found out where the limit is. Was the mast raked forward a bit? That would explain some of the diving tendancy, generally the 5.0 isn't that bad for diving forward (compared to the hobies).

As for raking the mast, it actually depends on the year of your Nacra a bit. If you have a newer (post 1985), the diamond wire spreaders are raked back and you can get quite a bit of rake just with a downhaul. Pre 1985 the masts and sails really won't take that type of stress. And you are unlikely to ever get the severe rakes you sometimes see on Hobie 14 and 16s without a carbon mast or breaking something. You can rake it back a little bit (couple of notches) and that probably will help a lot with pitchpoling.

D.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Quote

As for digging in the bows, I'll look at getting an extender, but why, lawrencer, do you think that rake is a bad thing on the nacras? I'm trying to figure out why it could be a no-no.

Dealer says as I recall it is a matter of balancing power fore and aft and maintaining ability to tack and go upwind.

My Nacra has a huge jib which could be a factor.

If your rudders are not all the way down you will have weather helm. I have had problems getting my rudders to stay all the way down when it is real windy. They don't have to be up very much to cause a problem. If just one was part way up this could explain the different feel on opposite tacks. Also the dagger boards will have an effect on helm. Raking the mast back will cause more weather helm. The rig should be loose enough for the mast to rotate just past 90deg.
Your tiller bars from the rudders to the cross bar should be straight or have about a 5deg. bend on each toward the center of the boat. The bend corrects the ackerman angle "inner rudder has to turn sharper than the outer"



edited by: skarr1, Sep 28, 2009 - 09:44 PM

things i have learned:
20 - 25 is wild and hairy.. bows go under the water fast ... mistakes are more dangerous, rigging is much more stressed (I de-masted in 20 knots yesterday. My halyard/turnbuckle snapped), any more air than that is survival mode

sheet in, travel out... all the way if you need to.. every degree you travel out is a degree less you can point so adjust the traveler ass needed during tacks...

if you are very overpowered.. remove the jib.. if you aren't overpowered.. keep the jib if you can.. you will steer/tack better (hopefully)

the bigger air... the more extreme the weather helm will feel, all the more reason to work out the adjustments in normal or medium air



edited by: andrewscott, Sep 28, 2009 - 10:44 PM

Andrew,
Wow, that is scarey. Sounds like good advice!!

I was out by myself yesterday in 15+ knots with big gusts. I found that I ended up travelling out about 3/4 of the way and spilling a ton of wind off the top of the sail. Even then I had problems keeping the hull down to a reasonable level. May have been better if I could have gotten on the wire but then I would have had to steer, travel, main and jib all at the same time on the wire. I couldn't handle all that yet, and probably should have left the jib at home. I should have a furler setup for next season which should help.

D.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

another depowering option is to stop mast rotation

in those conditions i would sail my 5.2 without the jib and blow the traveller in tacks to stop weather vanning into irons

the traveller is a big big step forward in boat design that mono have now borrowed from cats, try to to use it more and the mainsheet less. esp. in big winds

without the jib feeding the back of thje main you will need tomake many more traveller adjustments for each point of sail, which is a very good way of learning about sail settings etc.

Wolfman

May have been better if I could have gotten on the wire but then I would have had to steer, travel, main and jib all at the same time on the wire. I couldn't handle all that yet, and probably should have left the jib at home.
D.

Typically if I am solo and on the wire all I worry about is the main sheet and tiller. I will set the jib and traveller and if I need to adjust them I will come in off the wire. I just recreational sail, but trying to manage 3 lines and the tiller will only get you into trouble. When I had a H16 I would try to leave the jib sheet near my feet, but it would often slide away from me, on my H18M I can't keep it near me while trapping off the wings.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

smfinley

Wolfman

May have been better if I could have gotten on the wire but then I would have had to steer, travel, main and jib all at the same time on the wire. I couldn't handle all that yet, and probably should have left the jib at home.
D.

Typically if I am solo and on the wire all I worry about is the main sheet and tiller. I will set the jib and traveller and if I need to adjust them I will come in off the wire. I just recreational sail, but trying to manage 3 lines and the tiller will only get you into trouble. When I had a H16 I would try to leave the jib sheet near my feet, but it would often slide away from me, on my H18M I can't keep it near me while trapping off the wings.

If the traveler line (bitter end) is tied to mainsheet bitter end.. you can pull in the extra line and get to your traveler line.. i also try to keep my jib sheet at my feet but often have to swing my feet in to get it..

I also like to practice my juggling, make a mixed drink, and maybe play some guitar while on the wire...

Wow, this is all great advice.

Mummp, noted. I'll keep that in mind as 'shit not to do on a cat that I've done on a single'

Wolfman, it wasn't raked forward, I was on the top adjuster on the forestay. Then again, it wasn't raked back that much either. And the 5.0 is, I believe, an 87, and yes the diamonds lines are raked back.

I think my issue, from all that have posted, is rudder rake for the weather helm and heavy crew/heavy wind/new cat sailor for the diving bows.

I'm going to try and fiddle with my rudders to see what I can get out of them, I seem to remember one being slightly aft and I couldn't get it to pull in further, so that would probably explain some of it.

Gordonjs,

Take a look at this thread:
http://www.thebeachcats.com/module-forum-viewtopic-topic-11208.html

About halfway down is a picture of TurboCat's 2:1 setup for his rudders. I did this on my cat and have no problems cinching up the rudders even in the highest winds. Apparently it doesn't affect the pivmatic (pop up) rudder system to any great degree but I haven't actually used them.

Regards,
Dave

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

rudder adjustments are a matter of mm's. i recently adjusted about 15 times before it was correct. i take some tools out for a sail and adjust on the fly or when i pull up somewhere and make a 1 slight adjustment..1adjustment at a time!)

I also use a sharpie to mark the adjustments (screw or ring or whatever) position. its a good reference point if need be later..

Excellent Thread!

On Topic (until this post), multiple contributions, and well phrased questions without any bickering or name calling.

I'm hoping this is what the forums here at TheBeachcats.com will become known for.

Thanks Eeveryone!

Now, back to your discussion.

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

How To Create Your Signature

How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar

How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
--

Agreed with above. I'm new to cat sailing and this forum, and was worried a bit about being 'flamed' as the 'new guy who doesn't know what's up', but so far, my few topics I've posted about have been met with great response and help. I really appreciate it guys!

The sharpie idea is a good one. I don't mind having marked up rudders/adjustment points if they are functional marks!

I'm a newbie to catsailing myself and have had nothing but positive experiences here!! The people are friendly and respond very quickly. There are a few people who have been doing this for a long time and seem to be very committed to helping us new people out and growing the sport. That's an awesome thing!

A place like this makes getting into the sport sooo much easier and less intimidating than it was when I started about 20 years ago. Back then you had to guess if something would work and pray it did. :)

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

I concur. Not a newbie but I've learned more about sailing on this site and since I went from an HT14 to a 5.8na this site has given me the knowledge and confidence to really enjoy my cat. Great for technical assistance also. I talk this site up on my beach all the time. Its more than an Craigs list for cat sailors.