An individual on the internet informed me that backwinding the jib is the only efficient way to tack an H16.

Unless the H16 is significantly different that any other boat that I have ever sailed, backwinding actually slows the tack and is not really a technique that is used during competition.

Does anyone have any opinions on this?

in most cats/ cases you shouldn't release the jib until the main has passed overhead, so even if for just a second.. your still backwinding it a little...


I owned a H16 but never raced it (or on one).
I would think that backwinding is needed in some condition (like big waves) when you need a "little more" to get the bows through the tack... but if its not needed.. it isn't used to much...

I don't have a jib and still manage to tack in waves. It's not always enjoyable, but it is possible.

Quite a few years ago (early 90s) I crewed on a Tornado and we didn't need to backwind. I expect that a 16 foot boat that weighs and has less beam would be easier to tack. Is it something to do with the huge amount of mast rake that the H16 seems to use?

Nope with the H16 its the asymmetric hulls and no centerboards. Basically you have to turn the whole boat around the rudders (actually a point between the rudders and the deepest part of the hulls). The skeg shaped hulls tack a little better and centerboard boats (tornado, nacra 5.5, 5.2, etc) tack the best.

That severe mast rake you can set the H16 up with probably also doesn't help.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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I don't have a jib and still manage to tack in waves. It's not always enjoyable, but it is possible.

Dont forget your question was about "a technique that is used during competition"

Why dont you have/use a jib on an h16?

I have a Nacra 5.5 Uni.

Actually I asked whether backwinding was the best and only efficient way to tack a H16.

I ask this because I haven't sailed a Hobie 16 and wondered if the H16 was somehow fundamentally different from other boats.

If my understanding of the theory is correct, a H16 should be one of the easier boats to tack (even in wave) due to:
- The 320 lb weight (a good amount for a 16.5 foot boat)
- Low volume hulls
- Relatively narrow beam
- 2up boat provides more momentum.

I know that backwinding will make tacking easier, but it does slow the tack and I am skeptical that it is required to tack a boat of this size. There is the possibility that I am wrong (according to my wife, this happens all the time).

Wolfman: The hull shape may be the reason. I guess I need to try out one of the H16s. I have sailed a uni rig skeg boat and didn't find it hard to tack, but each boat is a little different.

I looked up the H14. It has a similar hull design to the H16, but does not carry a jib.

Your 5.5 is much easier to tack than an H16, I also know my 5.2 (with daggerboards) is a freaking DREAM to tack compared to our old H16. The H14s do have the same hull shape as the H16s and are notoriosly tough to tack without a jib. That being said, once you get good at it you can tack an H16 about as well as any other boat. The learning curve is just steeper that's all and smoooooth tacking technique is a must.

Oh and one of the main reasons for the mast rake on an H16 is to keep the hulls from diving in. You will often see the crew on an H16 trapezing almost off the back of the boat just to get the weight back and avoid pitchpoling in higher winds.



edited by: Wolfman, Oct 13, 2009 - 11:24 AM

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Quote

You will often see the crew on an H16 trapezing almost off the back of the boat just to get the weight back and avoid pitchpoling in higher winds.

also critical to get the bows out of the water for tacking

So what exactly is the advantage that the H16 has that makes it so popular?

CHEAP and simple!! There are so many out there that you can get a decent one for on the order of $2000, less for a crappy one.

Also there isn't much to rigging it. There are less parts and they are really easy to figure out compared to many other designs.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Wolfman

Your 5.5 is much easier to tack than an H16, I also know my 5.2 (with daggerboards) is a freaking DREAM to tack compared to our old H16.

Aye, tacking my 5.2 is similarly much easier than my P18.

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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Wolfman

The learning curve is just steeper that's all and smoooooth tacking technique is a must.

agree with Wolfman about the learning curve! and previous comments-my first full summer with my boat in all conditions showed me the "pivot point" you are tacking around in H16 is the entire assymetric hull, so weight distribution at the right time is crucial-smoooth helm over, I now stay on leeward side thru eye of wind, smoooth wt transfer,and the backing jib definitely helps finish tack

--
eddiecat

Nacra 5.0 (destroyed in storm)
Hobie 16 (restored)
Nacra 5.5- amalgam "Franken Cat"
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So what exactly is the advantage that the H16 has that makes it so popular?

Hobie was the first to market... lots of market share because of that..

Hobie 16's are good solid boats in most conditions, from flat and light air to large waves and heavy air. They can easily be reefed (or at least the early models came with reef points) and are relatively easy to sail...

I had one and loved it. I still miss it (esp when i am in my 2nd hour of rigging my beast)

rpiper138

An individual on the internet informed me that backwinding the jib is the only efficient way to tack an H16.

Those guys on the Interweb don't know nothing!

Now the Hobie 16 IS different to sail than a lot of other beachcats (or should be, others are different from the Hobie 16)

Couple of articles

Roll tacking the Hobie 16
http://www.thebeachcats.com/Article73.html

Hobie 16 tips and tacking at the bottom
http://www.thebeachcats.com/Article111.html


--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

How To Create Your Signature

How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar

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Lernin' more than I ever did in skule!

I'll tell ya, tacking in 20-25 knots winds is difficult no matter what brand and model cat you are on. You tend to pinch to keep from flippin' and the boat just wants to weather vane and drift back when it is blowin' that hard. What is the easiest boat to tack, . . . those with self tacking jibs (and almost all of them have high aspect boards).

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Philip
--

back-winding the jib basically stops any cat dead in the water as all the speeds gets bled off as the bows go sideways through the water, so it is very slow. but as no special techniques are used, (you basically just pull the rudder from pretty much any heading angle), it is probably the most widely used catamaran tacking technique

however if you've got crew and are racing then you shouldn't have to back-wind the jib, even on a h16. but the helm needs to get the heading, speed and waves all right for the wind and the crew needs to release, pull through and reset the jib at just the right time. can be extra hard with that battened jib on the h16 too

even though my nacra5.2 has big centerboards to tack around, as i usually sail solo i've got to much to do already without timing the jib release and reset. the older nacras have big overlapping jibs too which are harder to get around the mast cleanly than the smaller, more modern blade jibs

i think of the h16 as the vw, mini or 911 porsche of the sailing world, it is an old, wildly successful design that somehow really caught people's imagination but the engineering involved was such a compromise in so many ways that it's basic design ended up being an evolutionary dead end

like the 911, the h16 is one of the easiest performance boats to sail but one of the hardest to sail really well. which makes it incredibly rewarding too

body positioning is very important on the h16 and a fast h16crew is constantly moving forward and back, in and out to keep the boat in it's constantly moving sweet spot

the h14 didn't have a jib for simplicity/cost reasons, neither does the wave, but for both boats the factory provides expensive jib upgrades as the continual complaint from owners is that the damn things keep getting stuck into wind



edited by: erice, Oct 13, 2009 - 06:41 PM

The jib battens on the H-16 have a tendency to get stuck on the mast/halyard as you are coming about, a pain when you are solo. I felt backwinding helped me get the jib past the sticking point.

Backwinding the jib is used in competition in many scenarios. It is also a technique you should make yourself familiar with as it can be useful in many situations. The most common usefullness of backwinding is to expedite the process of powering up on the new tack, to simply assist in taking the boat through the eye of the wind. To state that it stops the boat is a stretch, and misses the point. It's not like you are leaving it there on the new tack and stopping the boat, but finesse it with timing to execute speed. As Andrew stated, it's timing, a brief backwind only, and the technique becomes increasingly useful as velocity increases. As the wind velocities increase, the technique of backwinding will actually make the tack faster. This becomes even more important when combining light weight with high aspect sails.

Backwinding is used by the best of teams, and for many reasons. On the race course it can be very useful, and is an important part of boat control and management.

--
Philip
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Had to learn how to sail my H16, no sailclubs, no Hobie fleets, in fact no other sailors period, my 1st boat was a H14T which came with the jib and made tacking a whole lot easier but perhaps that was because as a novice I never ventured out in winds over 10 mph. But the H16 was different and as wind velocity increases so does the chance of blowing a tack. Did a lot of that at 1st and learned how to steer in reverse, to swing the bows through the wind (reverse rudder). Then on a blown tack where my jib sheets hung up coming about, I learned how to use my jib to bring the bows around, release mainsheet leave jib cleated in and release jib slowly as bows come about, this I think is what you term "back winding" the jib. I have a roller-furling jib which is a bit smaller than my battened jib and does not hang up on the mast, a bonus. I still have not yet felt the sweet-spot, the center of balance on a tack which would increase the speed of a tack but have minimized the incidents of blown tacks. Reading all/many suggestions on this forum has helped, for instance, gradually/smoothly turning into the wind instead of a hard turn, as the H16 goes into the eye of the wind, release main and use jib to pull bows through the eye and onto new tack, sheet in main and blast off on new tack.

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TurboHobo
H14T
H16
P18
G-Cat 5.0
P16
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rpiper138

So what exactly is the advantage that the H16 has that makes it so popular?

There's another thread on here showing pictures of a cat with a torn up hull that happend when their daggerboard hit the bottom. H16 has no daggerboard... Makes it difficult to tack, but sure is nice when you're sailing in shallow water!

I got an H16 this summer, and I've been experimenting with tacking technique. I'm no racer, by any means, but I think I'm starting to get the hang of it...

First, start the tack gradually. Head up more and more into the wind, making good to windward while you're at it, until the sails are totally luffing and you're starting to lose way, THEN shove the tiller over hard. At that point, the jib will fill on the back side. Leave it that way, just for a moment. It will help to push the bows around. The instant the main fills and the battens "pop" over to the other side, pop the jib sheet free on the upwind side, and sheet in on the lee side. The jib fills, and you're off and running.

So, yes, as I've described it you are backwinding the jib, but hopefully only for an instant, and it's not really slowing you down so much as helping push the bow around so you can get the main filled and pick up speed again on the new tack.

Another trick I've tried in light air is, as the bow comes around, right after I duck under the boom I grab it and give it a hard yank to "pop" the battens over the other way manually. (That's a trick I used to use on an old windsurfer with a floppy battened sail.)

Going into the tack gradually seems to help, because if you try to shove the tiller over hard right away you just lose a bunch of speed.

When the wind is blowing hard it's tricky, because, if you're like me you've got the sail out a bit to de-power before you start the tack. The trick is to keep pulling in the main sheet as you smooothly go closer and closer hauled, "pinching" the wind as needed to prevent from being overpowered. Then, as the bow comes around, and the jib fills and backwinds, you have to be really quick to unsheet it, otherwise in a stiff wind you risk getting brought to a stop and flipped over backwards. If the main is sheeted in tight it should fill and gain power quickly on the new tack, and the instant it starts to fill, you can pop the jib free and sheet it in on the other side.

In big wind, especially when sailing solo, it can be difficult to get it right, especially when you factor in coming in from the trapeze, unhooking, then getting hooked back in and out on the other side. But if it was easy it wouldn't be fun!

Loosen the main as you pass through the wind. If the mainsheet is in hard, it will tend to pull you into the wind. This makes it easier to get caught in irons. In fact, on a uni rig boat, it pretty much guarantees it since you don't have the backwinded jib to pull you out of it. The jib will pull the bow out of the wind (backwinded or not, but more so and earlier backwinded), the main pulls it into the wind. It is very similar to the windsurfer. Tip the mast backward and the center of force is behind the rotation point of the boat, the aft is pushed leward and the bow windward.

I understand the advantage of the backwind for ease of tacking, but it doesn't seem to be required on any other boat the way that, I am told, it is required on the H16.

The H14 has similar hulls and no jib. How do people successfully tack the H14?

I will admit that the N5.5Uni can be horrible to tack in heavy wind and wave and it would be nice to be able to backwind a jib (none rigged) to pull the nose around.

Quote

understand the advantage of the backwind for ease of tacking, but it doesn't seem to be required on any other boat the way that, I am told, it is required on the H16.

The H14 has similar hulls and no jib. How do people successfully tack the H14?

I believe a H14 hull is not as deep. So for a H16 in addition to being 2 feet longer the hulls are further down in the water creating a bigger area to rotate through the water. I think the biggest problem with tacking a H16 is that it takes some technique and practice, just like almost everything. And many H16 sailors are not highly experienced so that makes it even more of an issue. I learned to sail on a H16. Mast rake and other boat setup things might also play a factor.


--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
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rpiper138

Loosen the main as you pass through the wind. If the mainsheet is in hard, it will tend to pull you into the wind. ... It is very similar to the windsurfer. Tip the mast backward and the center of force is behind the rotation point of the boat, the aft is pushed leward and the bow windward.

Except when your main fills you immediately pick up speed, and then, unlike a windsurfer, you have a rudder to steer with!

But yeah, I see your point. I'll keep experimenting...

I don't believe the jib option on the Hobie Bravo & Hobie Wave have been a big hit. I rented a Bravo, on recommendation from the Hobie dealer in my area. Didn't like it at all, slower than my 25 yr old invitation, tended to bury the bows, to narrow to be stable, & to small to carry 2 adults. It was also very sensitive to tacking. The main selling points seemed to be that a couple of kids could rig them, & you could furl the sail. I asked about the jib, to aid tacking...he told me they hadn't been a real success, in fact he had only sold two with that option, & the buyers wanted to return them.
I am new to cats, so my difficulties with the Bravo were probably lack of skill/experience.
In November I sailed a Hobie Wave in Barbados, with no jib. While not nearly as quick around as my centerboard Invitation, I never missed a tack. We went a mile offshore one day to get into clear air, & wind was 15-20 kts. I tried a bunch of short legs, just to experiment with different techniques. As long as you gradually/smoothly used rudder, it came around every time, & we were bashing through waves that came over the front beam a few times, stopping the boat dead in its tracks.
The Wave is symmetrical keel hulls, 11" draft, but only 13' long, that fact alone may make the tacks easier. I was pleasantly surprised at the speeds we obtained,(I realize it isn't considered a performance boat)& how easy it was for a newbie to tack. You would really have to be ham fisted to need a jib to make those boats come around.
I asked the guy running the watersports about there durability, as I was considering buying one. He claimed they were very tough, left on the beach all day, used everyday by people who didn't really care about them, & the only replacement item was the sails, mostly because tourists "go through them, right through them."
If my 5.7 tacks anywhere near the same, I will be happy.



edited by: Edchris177, Dec 12, 2009 - 10:10 AM

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He claimed they were very tough, left on the beach all day, used everyday by people who didn't really care about them, & the only replacement item was the sails, mostly because tourists "go through them, right through them."
If my 5.7 tacks anywhere near the same, I will be happy

I am one of those tourists that have gone through a rental sail. I was in Jamaica with my wife at a Sandals resort. I had been out each day on a Wave solo most of the week and was able to fly a hull on the rental, they even set up a couple small regattas so I could race against the employees. Then I went out with my wife and in a big gust the extra weight plowed the bows, stopped the boat, and I went straight through the sail. The watersports guys came out picked us up and towed the boat back in, only asked if we were ok, said they see it all the time. The next day they gave me another boat to take out again.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

On most days on the H14T, I'd say the only purpose for that little jib is to help tack.



edited by: turtlecat, Dec 15, 2009 - 11:14 PM

I've only been sailing my h16 for four years.. but I've found that leaving the jib cleated until you have completed the tack works wonders! Keeping you from getting stuck in irons is one factor, the other is the stupid battens getting stuck on the mast or on the halyards. If you have any amount of decent wind, once you've come through and pulled in the main sheet, you uncleat the jib and it will pop over very easily and you will be off and running like a rocket ship!

From what I've seen on the h16.. it's either going or it's not. There isn't much in between.

I was in Jamaica last month and played on a Hobie Wave one day when it was blowing hard... we crushed everyone else who was out there.. mostly because I'm experienced, but I bet having my sailing gloves came into play as none of the cleats worked very well, so you had to hold the main. I think I scared my girlfriend though after we rocketed out of the bay and plowed through the surf.. it looks a bit daunting there in comparison to our little lakes here in Wisconsin.

Funny how 2 cats always constitutes a race!

awesome to hear your stories. I just started sailing this past summer and I found that timing is the one key factor that needs to be mastered. meaning turn the boat in an s shape fashion. note if your going fast than your tack should be fast. ie sailing closed-reach come into the wind fairly hard and your momentum will carry you threw. I agree with the above in regards to sailing with the main. To tack faster, I found that timing and tack primarily with the jib. but know I almost always sail with the main tack 4inch give room.