Hey Everyone
Sorry for starting so many topics lately but I`m planning hard for next year and looking at replacing most of my rigging.

Does anyone run non-wire trap lines? I was looking up line and one of the recommended applications for Amsteel Blue 12 strand line is for trap lines but I can't find any information on how one would replace the actualy trap lines (or even if this is a potentially bad idea). I'm assuming you would have to do a couple of eye splices to make the new lines. I would probably hesitate to use a non-wire trap line due to the risk of abrasion but it would be a good opportunity to learn splicing and get some cool trap lines. Anyone have any experience/opinions?

I have seen some references to even replacing the running rigging on a boat with this or other, high strength low stretch line. Again I can't see this being a good idea without a really good cover material. But it is an intriguing thought considering the strength of some of these high tech ropes is higher than wire rope.

Regards,
Dave

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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Good question and I'm interested in hearing other opinions on it. Not that I have an answer, but more of a concern with the Amsteel having the ability to wrap appendages such as fingers or worse more easily than even the smaller dia. trap wires. hmmm....

Don't be sorry for asking questions. Answers to everyones questions led me to a lot of learning on this site. Keep it up! Btw how do you like your 5.2? My 6.0 is a BEAST!

Yeah, I don't know if there are any good answers though.
Being an engineer I've seen a lot of composites replace traditional steel so this would make some sense to me. There is always a downside though (abrasion damage, potential stiffness issues, etc).

That's true, but I can definitely be too enthusiastic. I know I've answered a few questions that I thought I had covered but was completly off base. A real danger when one has a technical background, but is pretty much a noob in the actual sailing experience department.

I LOVE my 5.2! Everyone I talked to (except on here) told me to go with a smaller, simpler boat because it was too much for me. I picked up a couple of books and retaught myself how to sail (after a 15 year absence) and just love it! Late in the season I got up the courage to really let the boat go. It really surprised me how far I could push the boat before I got into trouble!! Now I'm dreaming about spinnakers, F17s and F18s. :)

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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Wolfman

Now I'm dreaming about spinnakers, F17s and F18s. :)

Funny how our sport does this huh? Dave, I went from an H14T to a N6.0, just because of the flotation in the hulls...and the need for speed. I love her. I am currently looking to upgrade that little boat that I like to solo. Hence the 5.2 q. And just a side note, I used to "hedge sail" my big boat as a novice trying to keep all the loads bearable to the novice sailor. As I got more comfortable I quickly understood that she is a horse that needs to run. She has more balance, helm, and better behavior when she is sheeted in and powered up!



edited by: turtlecat, Dec 14, 2009 - 11:10 PM

turtlecat

Good question and I'm interested in hearing other opinions on it. Not that I have an answer, but more of a concern with the Amsteel having the ability to wrap appendages such as fingers or worse more easily than even the smaller dia. trap wires. hmmm....

This is my concern with using textile standing rigging, too...flying into a taught fishing line sounds horrible. I tried to pay attention this summer when flying around on the trapeze, and it seemed to me like the odds of a trap line getting wrapped around anything was really low. My jib halyard is about to go and the n52 jib halyard seems to be a perfect place to use HM line, so I'll start with that and go from there.

If I were to replace the trap lines w/ HM lines I'd most likely shorten them about a foot.

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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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YES you can replace *ALL your steel rigging (more standing vs running rigging) with HM line (amsteel, spectra, vectran, etc,). You can't really use pure HM line as running rigging as it doesn't cleat without a jacket or blended materials.

12 strand is VERY easy to splice and a great place to start

A trap line is a good place for HM line... IF your setup will permit it. I know several Tornado sailors who use spectra (dynema) for trapwires. they are light, cheap, easy to do and look cool... BUT on my mystere my set up causes chafe up top (the mast) and i was advised against it. I THINK i may still try next time i need to replace. Perhaps i will make small pig-tails for up top .. but that may remove any benefit of going to HM line.

you CAN use HM line for your shrouds but its just to easy for ANYONE with a knife to walk by and demast you... to big an Arsehole factor for me... plus i hear (from those who have done it) you spend more time re-tightening your rig (most HM lines have some creep/stretch) than its worth (every time).

If you wish to try it (trap lines)... i say go for it
You need to use thimbles on both ends (easy to do) as HM line does / can chafe and pull apart semi-quickly if you dont.

As per your fingers / arms getting wrapped up.... well i guess it is possible, but you would really have to try to get something wrapped up in a trap wire.. but its possible. I know someone who lost a digit using very very thin dynema as a dog leash..and when the dog took off after a cat.. and it was wrapped around the persons finger.... POP!

That sounds good, I've been looking at the Brummel Eye Splice and technically it looks fairly simple. In practicality I'm sure that wrestling through the line and getting everything correct will be a challange.

I think I will redo my trap lines using amsteel blue, come sailors thimbles and some of those donut thingees to prevent chafing. Flying the hull in my Canadian Flag themed boat hanging off of bright red trap lines sounds like a neat picture! If things go well I may even consider doing the shrouds with a one of the prestretched (low creep)dyneemas or a vectran wire rope replacement. **Note to self, let the crew trapeze using the rope trap lines until I'm convinced they wont abrade and snap.**

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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Quote

come sailors thimbles and some of those donut thingees to prevent chafing

I am sorry, i guess i don't speak Canadian well enough... what the heck are you saying here? hahah

the new prestretch stuff is called Dynex Duh (actually spelled Dynex Dux :)) that is heated stretched and held overnight under load. this is supposed to remove almost all the creep BUT . . .

good data at this thread about all this - http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=170108&page=1

Oh, they sell plastic donuts that attach to the line space them away from the mast (and other wires). Being Canadian I prefer to buy my donuts from Tim Horton's of course. :)

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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Quote

As per your fingers / arms getting wrapped up.... well i guess it is possible, but you would really have to try to get something wrapped up in a trap wire.. but its possible

I have gotten wrapped up in a trap wire once. Pitchpole a SC20 with two of us on the wire (another 2 on the hull). Two of us did the peter pan out to the front. They other guy grabbed the trap line that was floating infront of him and started to pull to get him back to the boat. Ended up that wire was wrapped around my neck, so as he pulled I couldn't breath . Once he let go we discovered how fast that boat slides across the water when tipped over. Had a motor boat stop by to pick him up

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Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
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Hey there's a pretty good 3 part tutorial on doing a Brummel eye splice on 12 strand Dynex Dux line. It doesn't look that hard really. I would probably put whipping (or shrink cover) over the actual splice though. Here's a link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCH2aR3wGVM

I believe that Annapolis Performance Sailing will be getting an order for a splicing kit some thimbles and 10 feet or so of practice line for the winter. When it's -40 out there's not much else to keep you busy if you don't like ice fishing. :)



edited by: Wolfman, Dec 15, 2009 - 08:41 PM

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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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get more than 10 feet. The 12 strand really is easy. I can take a picture of my first and only brummel, in which I didn't really know what I was doing anyway, and it looks just fine.

Eye splices in traditional double braids look really nice IMO and I found them exceptionally labor intensive considering I was working with a few feet of rope. I think the two took me 2 hours each to get final bury. Anyway, if you plan to try those you should grab a decent chunk of line. don't wanna make them and not be able to use them.

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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

Quote

I believe that Annapolis Performance Sailing will be getting an order for a splicing kit some thimbles and 10 feet or so of practice line for the winter.

I agree with Yurdle.. get alot more than 10'.
Splice kit? I would NOT use Sampson style fids ever again... they stink! i personally like the Selma style fid (it allows you to feed and secure the line inside the fid, unlike the Sampson which you tape it to the fid).

Even better is the Splice Wand from Bryon Toss (google it). His tool works differently than regular fids, but it works very well. It is about $60 or so.. but i love it. I also got a video from him and it convinced me that i DONT want to splice regular, double braid.. it looks crazy and time consuming.

Hmm, I will probably just get some cheaper 12 strand (is there such a thing) to practice on then. Make some dog leashes or something. :)

Thanks for the advice on tools! I was looking at the different kits and couldn't figure out what would be best. I was going to get the Samson Fids but from your description likely the Swedish style ones would be better.


Yes, wouldn't want to do a tuck splice where you unravel all the strands! That looks crazy and is actually what i thought you had to do when splicing. Glad the Brummel looks much easier than that!


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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Brummel's are good, but so is a simple bury eye splice (or the kind i do with 3 passes through itself)

1 hint on doing the brummel.. .have pliers handy and draw a stripe down 1 side of the line... after you invert and then un-invert.. it can be hard to find/pull the right part and the line can help find it.. pliers (needle nose) to grab and pull...

if ANYONE wants a set of Sampson Fids.. you can have mine for the cost of shipping.



edited by: andrewscott, Dec 16, 2009 - 11:31 AM

Let me chime in. This is really simple stuff and is being over thought. Once you do it you will realize how simple it really is. I use homemade fids most of the time. They are made out of brass rod and aluminum rod. The aluminum fids I made are different size knitting needles I bought at Wally World. I cut them to my desired length and done. Brass rod can be bought at the home stores, cut to length and shape a blunt tip on one end. I have all the fids mentioned and I hardly use them. I use boxing tape to connect the butt end of each the line and fid. I keep all this stuff in my sail bag and use it regularly on the beach when needed. So simple a cave man . . .

Definitely do the trap lines. It helps to put a sacrificial cover on the top end where it connects to the hound.

P.S. The hardest part about the HM lines is getting a clean cut. Everybody has their own method. I do it two ways. Drop or two of super glue where the cut is before you cut and then cut it on the diagonal with a razerblade/boxcutter, or cut it with quality sissors after glueing. The reason for the glue is lighters don't work very good with this stuff and a hot knife is not practical on the beach.

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Philip
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Yep, I mangled my vectran the first time I tried to cut it...not HM for nothin I spose.

Would a hot knife work on vectran or dyneema? I'll try the super glue idea.

I just have a few fids, a couple small Swedish fids and a larger Sampson fid. I cut up a bunch of hangars and labeled them for my fid lengths. I suppose a printed chart and a tape measure would have worked just fine for that, too.



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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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Yeah, I tend to overthink things, take a look at the thread I started on mast floats, then found out that I didn't need one. :)

I've done the homemade tool thing with some of my goldsmithing work (yes man of many hobbies) and found that it usually works best to actually use the purpose built tool first until you know what your doing and what you like/would change. So I will probably end up doing that for one size anyway and make the rest myself.

I have a pile of really good knives and would suggest one of those little ceramic pairing knives for cutting the line. They aren't overly expensive but they are lightsaber sharp and almost never need sharpening. The person in the youtube link above used one. Just don't drop one on your foot. I also have a rigging knife from Myerchin with a marlinspike and shackle key that would do the trick. I must say that if you are going to buy a special purpose knife for your boat those are the ones to get! The knife came super sharp out of the box and the marlinspike is actually useable both are locking too!

I thought that dyneema and vectran couldn't be hot knifed because thier melting temp is pretty high. THat was the explanation I was given for there still being all types of whipping available.



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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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a sharp razor blade works very well..
really no need to purchase special knives for this.

Not sure about the melting temp but if you try to use a flame to "cauterize" the end.. it just mushrooms up.

When I bought the dyneema for tramp lacing the gal just put one tight wrap of electrical tape around the line, then cut it with one clean stroke of a razor knife. I asked her about if heat sealing the ends was OK, she said, "yes, do want me to do them"
I thought I might as well...she had a setup that electrically heated a flat strip of thin steel. She just barely touched the line to the hot plate, by not applying any pressure, it prevented that mushrooming effect. By "barely touching", I mean little pressure, contact was established for probably 4-5 seconds.
Another thing I have done to prevent the mushroom end is to grab the dripping end,(leather gloves of course)between thumb & forefinger, the twist the rope with the other hand, simultaneously pulling it from between your thumb & finger. This results in a pointed end to the line, that you can now cut back a bit if desired.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
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Good to know, my understanding was that some of the high tech lines don't melt, they just burn.

D.

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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Coming in late on the thread... I used spectron line on my traps... it is an extremely strong fiber and easy to tie. While this is true... pay attention to the language concerning the sheath covering the spectron strands. The sheath prevents rubbing of the strand... a very important role. While you can pick up a truck with 3/8th inch spec.... it does not like to be rubbed. I did not pay much attention to the sheath despite seeing it going bad. Long story short... I took a dip very suddenly one day, broke my tiller. Had I not held tight to my main sheet line... my 5.7 would have left me stranded.

When I redux my traps I will go to stainless steel set to length... it sucks seeing your boat leaving you.





edited by: Deepsees, Dec 23, 2009 - 02:58 AM

andrew

A trap line is a good place for HM line... IF your setup will permit it. I know several Tornado sailors who use spectra (dynema) for trapwires. they are light, cheap, easy to do and look cool... BUT on my mystere my set up causes chafe up top (the mast) and i was advised against it. I THINK i may still try next time i need to replace. Perhaps i will make small pig-tails for up top .. but that may remove any benefit of going to HM line.

Does the side of the eye chafe against the mast?

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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

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Does the side of the eye chafe against the mast

so i am told.. of course you need to use a thimble too

I'm thinking of using stainless sailmaker thimbles (no sharp ends). Andrew, I really like the idea of using a stainless steel wire pigtail at the top. It would only have to be a couple of feet long so I don't think it would defeat the advantage of reducing weight aloft but it wold reduce chafing! A couple of donut spacers on the line or even one of those split plastic covers would probably help also.

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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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but if it doesnt save weight, and you make a steel tail with 2 eyes (thimbles) on each trap wire... what is to be gained? looks cool? thats whats stopped me..

Hmm, why wouldn't it save weight? My trap lines are 18 feet long 3/32" stainless wire. Total wire weight for 4 trap lines is approximatly 1.2 lbs.

Replace that with 4 - 2' wire pigtails side plus 5/32" amsteel should be approximatley 0.6 lbs.

OK that is pretty marginal. So the only real reason to do it is that it will look cool... and maybe be a little less harsh on the hands and body. Wonder if I can find some red wire covers. :)

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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Watching TV last night, making this:



I noticed that two 2.75mm dyneema lines fit really well inside of a 1/4" thimble. It's too cold to go test fit it with the shackle but it still looks like it would work. I think the thimble itself would protect the lines from chafe, as long as they didn't rub themselves to death. Either way, an oversized thimble may make this work.





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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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Yurdle, the chafe does not come from the turn or where it connects to the hound. It comes from the repeated rubbing against the mast and hound from repeated mast rotations and also from the trap lines and strouds abrasion against each other.

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Philip
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lol, nice avatar pic.

My hound (my guess is all 5.2's, although I've only checked a couple) has two holes, and the trap lines mount to the top, while the shrouds mount to the bottom. b/c of the few inches of separation the shrouds and trap lines never touch.

I see how there could be an issue with the leeward trap lines rubbing on the edge of the hound as the mast rotates, although they don't move in relation to it, and have no tension on them.

Thanks for the heads-up. I'll try to test it thoroughly.


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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

Quote

/c of the few inches of separation the shrouds and trap lines never touch.

oh, they do indeed. Another problem area is where the trap line swag near the thimble hangs up on the clevis pin to the 5/16" shroud shackle. It is the first 6" that you should provide for a sacrificial cover.

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Philip
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mummp

The reason for the glue is lighters don't work very good with this stuff and a hot knife is not practical on the beach.

I use a butane powered soldering iron with a hot knife fitting. friend of mine put me onto them. definitely in the favorite toy category!!

That won't work with a pure dyneema or vectran line. They don't melt, they burn. You have to use some type of whipping. My current favorite is electrical shrink tube, works like a charm!

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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Wolfman

That won't work with a pure dyneema or vectran line. They don't melt, they burn. You have to use some type of whipping.

Not true, dyneema melts at 144 degrees Celcius and Vectran at 330 degrees Celcius. Hot knifes do work on these fibers and is the common tool in the shop, it just that a hot knife is not very convenient on the beach. Hood's system provides for a portable way to hot knife the fibers on the beach. We've also used the portable butane torches for various uses, usually 'cause sometimes the wind is blowing hard and lighters and such don't work.
Dave, just curious, have you tried the super glue and a box cutter? It's simple and the glue makes the line much easier to get that clean cut.

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Philip
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Interesting, I couldn't get my Vectran to melt with a torch. It just burned and charred. I have a butane torch with a hot knife and I couldn't get it hot enough at my cabin.

Actually no, I haven't used the super glue technique, I've just been using electrical shrink tube (also sold as 'shrink whipping' at some sailing stores for about 3 times the cost). I take about 2 inches of 3/8" tube (for 3/8" line) and slide it to the spot I want to cut, heat it to shrink (it can shrink 1/2 it original diameter so it puts really good pressure on the rope end) and then cut through the tube. I now have two line ends that are securely whipped and the whipping won't come undone!

Also I cut my lines using one of those ceramic paring knives they sell for kitchen use (don't tell my wife I'm using her good knife). The thing is sharp like crazy and goes through the toughest rope super clean. I'm thinking of getting one just for my gear box it works so good!

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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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http://shop.ebay.com.au/i…ion+Hands+free&_osacat=0

Mine does 480 degrees C. seriously like a hot knife through butter!

hood

http://shop.ebay.com.au/i…ion+Hands+free&_osacat=0

Mine does 480 degrees C. seriously like a hot knife through butter!

. . . don't see a name associated with hood. Is this Darren?

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Philip
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mummp

hood

http://shop.ebay.com.au/i…ion+Hands+free&_osacat=0

Mine does 480 degrees C. seriously like a hot knife through butter!

. . . don't see a name associated with hood. Is this Darren?

Certainly is Philip!

registered 2003, only took about 7 years to get around to posting.. must be some kind of record :)

yurdle

My hound (my guess is all 5.2's, although I've only checked a couple) has two holes, and the trap lines mount to the top, while the shrouds mount to the bottom. b/c of the few inches of separation the shrouds and trap lines never touch.
Thanks for the heads-up. I'll try to test it thoroughly.

i'm guessing you have swept spreaders on your 5.2? my 1982 5.2 has straight spreaders and just the 1 mast hound hole for a D-ring shackle that originally carried just 3 eyelets, as each sidestay swage also carried the single crew trap line that was standard back in the day, however about 1983 helm trapping became common it and as extra trap lines were added to the hound it got crowded up there and nacra enlarged the mast hound to accept another hole specifically for trap lines

here's a pic of the single hole mast hound on my 1982 nacra 5.2

Nope, straight spreaders, double holes. 1982.

An owner before the guy I bought it from did some fixes and upgrades. He may have changed the hound.

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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

That's interesting, my 1981 has a hound with 3 holes in it and it looks original.

It also has the shrouds with a trap line swaged in. That confirms my suspician that they are original. Hmm 29 year old shrouds, time for new shrouds.

D.

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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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