I was by West Marine today, & picked up Amsteel Dyneema line for re-lacing the tramp.
Yesterday I removed the old lines to measure them, & have a look at how it was done, especially the rear lacing. I noticed there were 9 slots in the tramp, where the line will go around the plastic tube. There are only 7 of the captive slugs in the rear beam. All 7 seven are contained between the two fixtures riveted to the beam,(don't know the technical name for those fixtures). You can see one of these fixtures to the left of the picture. There is also a rivet near each end,in the groove of the track that keeps the slugs from sliding out.
My question is, have I lost 2 of those captive slugs? When going through the assembly manual, & seeing the method they use to lace the rear tramp, I think I need 2 more of those slugs, one for each slot in the tramp. Am I missing something in my interpretation? Picture isn't great, but you get the idea.
The other question is: do you lace the line right around those slugs, or is there supposed to be some sort of "barrel" around the staple portion? The ends of the slugs that take the line seem quite narrow, it looks like that tiny diameter will put alot of stress on the line, if it were padded with some sort of "barrel" it would tend to cut the line much less. The smaller the radius you bend the line around,the more likely you are to cut the line.
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edited by: Edchris177, Dec 17, 2009 - 09:50 PM

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

EC,
I think I see an eyelet on the rear beam in your picture. On mine there are 2 eyelets on the rear beam, one on each outboard side of the tramp. Those substitute for the slugs for the outboard slits on the tramp (and are also used for the jib wires).

I can`t see the slugs in your picture but the plastic bit is supposed to go in the track and there should be a metal D ring the sticks out, that you attach the tramp line to. The D ring (is that the staple you are talking about?) is actually continuous through the slug with the plastic barrel on one side to make it fat enough to not pull out of the track. It should be about 16 ga stainless steel so you shouldn't be able to deform it no matter how much you reef on it. You could use a bit of plastic wire rope cover (like the ones you put on shrouds) on the D rings if you are worried about it cutting the line.

Hope some fo that helped, if you can get a closeup of the slugs that would help a bit more.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

i haven't heard of people using dynema for tramp lacing.

It may be fine, but that line is very slick and doesn't hold a knot (or rolling hitch) all that well (especially until its broken in). Its also pretty expensive for that purpose.. but i bet it can work.. but you may be tensioning it more frequently than some XLS.

Seems like the same setup, there is an eyelet at each end of the beam. The metal D ring appears to be 16 ga, & there are 7 of them captive in the track.
I looked at the old assembly manual, they call them strap eyes, pictures are not good, but it looks the same as my setup. You are correct, you use the eye that is riveted to the beam, to start/terminate the installation, so I'm good to go. I thought I read they were called slugs, that appears not to be the case. A wonderful thing getting old, I now suffer from C.R.S. Can't remember ...

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

andrewscott

i haven't heard of people using dynema for tramp lacing.

It may be fine, but that line is very slick and doesn't hold a knot (or rolling hitch) all that well (especially until its broken in). Its also pretty expensive for that purpose.. but i bet it can work.. but you may be tensioning it more frequently than some XLS.

I was told to use Dyneema or Vectran, West Marine didn't have Vectran, so I ended up with Dyneema, I'm pretty sure it is pure SK-75. Looking at the specs, it has the same stretch as the Vectran, .7% at 20% load, which equates about the same as the Vectrans .5% at 15% of breaking load. They both run around 5000lb breaking strength. Looking at the specs, the Vectran probably hold knots better.
Anyway, I have it now, so that's what I'll use, for season one at least.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Actually I think I recommended a dyneema or vectran "blend" like VPC meaning that there are other materials in the rope and a cover to make it easier to tie/cleat etc. I also recommended vectran because is doesn't creep like dyneema. Sorry that I wasn`t clearer on the reasons. That amsteel is overkill for strength and can be pretty slippery!

In the end it probably isn't a big deal as long as it isn't too stiff to tie, you should be able to use it. You won`t have to worry about over tightening it either. And you can brag that you have the strongest tramp line ever made. :)

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Ha Ha, maybe I should have read your post closer. The line is not stiff at all, but it is slippery. It's going on this spring. There was only a few $ difference between the different lines, & surprisingly West Marine had very little choice. Maybe I should have had them order the Vectran, but I was getting a bunch of stuff as Xmas presents, so it's a done deal now. I'll let you know how it works out next season.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

I'm sure it will work fine! You may need to try a couple of knots before you find one that holds really well withot slipping though. I have a couple of knot books and will see if I can find something that will work better than others (although multiple half hitches are my solution to most problems). :)

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Wolfman

I'm sure it will work fine! You may need to try a couple of knots before you find one that holds really well withot slipping though. I have a couple of knot books and will see if I can find something that will work better than others (although multiple half hitches are my solution to most problems). :)

Same here...I just daisy chain hitches when I have extra line quite often.

I've gotta replace my 5.2 tramp line as well, but I'm jsut planning to use 3/16 sta-set.


--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

I think I read a post by MUMMP that even multiple 1/2 hitches wouldn't hold in some lines, I've been working through the pages of old posts, as many of my questions have been asked before.
If a stopper knot will stay in I have a solution. I also intend to leave the tail long so as to have some free line for securing.
I also found some old post regarding tramps, that the stitching could wear, but the tramp still be OK. I got a second tramp with the boat, the actual fabric looks in very good shape, still supple, no tears. One side bolt rope seam has come undone though. I was going to use it for a weather shade, but I think I'll use a tarp & keep it for a spare.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Let me respond to several post/comments. First of all, HM line is outstanding for lacing tramps. I will never use anything else again, ever, period. Why? Very easy, extremely easy, stupiduously simple to get it tight, and it does not stretch, which means less re tightening which is a PITA. The slippery(ness) of the line is what makes it so easy to get it tight. Knots. It ain't complicated folks. Quit reading the psycho-babble about it and tie the damn knot. I have never had one come lose. I have said it before, tie the bowline. It is simple and it holds for almost all the applications that we need it for on our rigs, and there are several other knots that work just fine. Creep. Everyone here seems to be overly concerned about creep. It has been referenced here many times. Creep data was provided for comparison to SS wire and Dyform. Let me tell you about this stuff, compared to double braids and other high tech poly blends, the HM lines are DA BOMB. In comparison they don't stretch or creep.

So, buy it, lace it, tie it, and be done with it!

In response, I don't think it was me that said multiple half hitches won't hold. . .

--
Philip
--

Ah experience! That is always the ultimate test, thanks Mummp! I did some research (encyclopedia of knots and ropework), if you are worried about the knots coming undone, try the anchor hitch. It was made to be used on slippery lines and is similar to the round turn an two half hitches only more secure. Heres a link, just make sure to add an extra half hitch or two in addition to this tutorial:
http://www.apparent-wind.com/knots/anchor-hitch/

Sorry if I have a phobia about creep, I used sta set on my tramp last year and that stuff stretched and creeped (slow deformation under constant load) like crazy. I was retentioning the tramp every 2nd sail. Probably not an issue with HM line given its stretch resistance EXCEPT if you are going to use it for standing rigging. I just like the idea that vectran hardly creeps at all, but dyneema is stronger overall.

Anyway that seems to be good advice that I should probably take on occasion. :) Keep it simple and don't overthink it. Once you've got the boat together and out on the water the first time, everything seems to make more sense. And everybody rigs slightly differently depending on what works for them. Of course it's good to keep thinking about sailing in the winter and find out how other people do stuff too. :)

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

according to "the bluffers guide to sailing" you need to know just 1 knot, not even how to tie it, just the name of it

so the knot i recommend for slippery line is the double dragon

it's a lot easier to remember than to tie

http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#DoubleDragon

but it does actually hold slippery line very well...

Everyone seems to be concerned about the tramp lacing creeping or stretching, but not a mention of the tramp material stretching over time. When I install, reinstall or retighten a tramp I try and do it at HIGH NOON when the sun is hot. I tighten the tramp the best that I can and then I let it sit for a while then get up n the tramp and walk all over it for some time trying to stretch the material then tighten again. Then repeat the process again.

MUMMP, here is your post that I referred to, I may have misinterpreted what you were referring to.

"Ever try tying HMPE? It is much more common today and it is slick, very slick. Say you want to tie you spin pole bridle (which frequently needs adjusting for proper spin halyard tension) using HMPE. You could use a stack of 10 half hitches and tape the snot out of it, and it will still slip, or you could tie a . . . .
icon_smile single bowline! icon_smile


. . . examples of HMPE are Dyneema, Spectra, Amsteel "

I played around with the Dyneema I bought, once you have some tension on it, it seems to hold OK, & the tramp will certainly have tension.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Ed,
OK I'm with you. I just bought all new ropes for my Nacra 5.2 (Annapolis Performance Sailing has a sale for 15% off all their cordage). Part of that order is 18 feet of red Amsteel Blue to relace my tramp lacing (not to mention about another $250 worth of VPC and Flight Line). Let me know how it works for you and I will let you know how it works for me (in the spring). :)

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--