well I plan on trying to do alot of singlehanded sailing on my Prindle..already attached a block system to step the mast myself but it doesn't really work to hot any suggestions out there for a rigg to raise and lower the mast by myself.. which I had more trouble lowering it than raising it.I was thinking of buying a cord operated(battery 12v hook up)winch and hook to the mast to raise and lower...anybody come up with a way to do this??Glenn A.

e-z step systems work well (once dialed in)
seach murray.com

there are many tricks to self step.. but i would suggest you don't try them until you have stepped a few dozen times at the least.

use the mast step hinge provided by performance cats, I think murrays sells it to.

--
Stefan, Denmark.
H14,H16,P16,P18,SC17,N5.8
Team StaySail
http://www.staysail.eu
--

Do you have trouble getting the mast physically up and down or is it the connection at the forestay that is the issue? I never fully single handed raised my H16 mast, and assuming a P16 is similar. I would always use someone to connect the forestay, but would often do all the other work myself, I found that easier then showing new crew how to help. I would just stand near the back of the tramp and rotate the mast up around the mast base hinge, kind of heavy until you can get under it and push with your legs. The only block I would have needed was something to hold the mast up while connecting the forestay.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

smfinley

Do you have trouble getting the mast physically up and down or is it the connection at the forestay that is the issue? I never fully single handed raised my H16 mast, and assuming a P16 is similar. I would always use someone to connect the forestay, but would often do all the other work myself, I found that easier then showing new crew how to help. I would just stand near the back of the tramp and rotate the mast up around the mast base hinge, kind of heavy until you can get under it and push with your legs. The only block I would have needed was something to hold the mast up while connecting the forestay.

no it not that heavy just awkward ..I use the mast step hinge...connected a block and tackle running thru a block I attached to the trailer which has a support in the front of it lift the mast on the tramp and pulled the block and tackle and up she goes...I lock the block and attach the for stay...I've done it a couple of times it's just a pain sometimes..the easy step for Murray's is too expensive..I'm thinking I can just tie off the tailing end of the jib halyard.. cleat on the mast and run a line thru the shackel tie a loop and use an electric winch to lift the mast while I guide it from behind the tramp..the winches come with a 20ft control cable and just winch it up...unclip the halyard and do the same to lower it..

do you raise it attached to the forestay or to a trap line. if you use a winch electrical or otherwise and attach it to a forestay it can be a pain to release from the winch and attach to your bridles. If you attach to trap line then you can leave it whiched until you lock in the forestay.

The easy-step just make sit easier to control the side to side sway as it goes up once it gets up high enough that problem goes away some. You can add support for side sway by taking a trap line on each side and tying taught to the front crossbeam on the outside edges. This will help the side sway more when the mast in not very high as it is tied into the fulcrum, with your side stays a ways back from the fulcrum they offer no support until the mast is pretty much up.

If you are gonna use an electric motor winch and guide from back at the same time you have to have one that has a wireless remote otherwise you have to have someone to run the winch.



edited by: Quarath, Mar 10, 2010 - 11:51 AM

--
Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
--

Quote

'm thinking I can just tie off the tailing end of the jib halyard..

Please dont step your mast by the jib halyard near my car/cat/ or head

For years I stepped my hobie 16 using a winch attached to the forestay. I attached it so that the angle lined up perfect when the boat was on the trailer. It is very easy to get anyone to crank a winch. You can then get on the tramp and assist it up. With the mast up and the winch locked you can get off the boat and attach the bridal wires. Only 30 seconds of help with no experience and it is done without any danger.

Please check out Technical Help Gallery for this subject

http://www.thebeachcats.c…ee942ad9b028601f3fca480c

--
TurboHobo
H14T
H16
P18
G-Cat 5.0
P16
--

yes, you can "find" steel tubing, weld a parts to your trailer, Jerry-rig BUNGEES to prevent side to side sway (I WOULD NEVER USE BUNGEE, what happens in a gust?) and make your own system...

or

you can spend 200 and get a proven system that once dialed in... works perfectly, and only takes about 15 minutes to set up and use.


just like beach wheels.. you can improvise your own set, but in the end... most people will end up getting the real deal, cause they work best and last.

OR

you can tie a line to your forestay and ask ANYONE on the beach to help you for 30 seconds pulling the line.

To help stabalize while raising the mast, on our SC20 we would pass the jib sheet under the front cross beam and then tie it to a trapeze line on each side of the boat. Using the jib blocks to hold tension, while hand winching the mast up. This helped with windage or uneven parking lots. We later discovered it is easier to use 2 or 3 guys to manually raise the mast instead of winching and haven't winched it since. I would not recommend bungee cords to aid in stabalizing anything unless there is a rope backing it up.

In the first 30 degrees or so of raising the mast there is a lot of tension and force on the winch system which I was never really comfortable with.

I agree with Andrew, stick with the forestay or trap lines for raising the mast by winch, never use the jib halyard.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

WOW! Andrew, did not realize it irks you that bad that I came up with a cheap, proven reliable system of raising the mast solo, I apologize.

--
TurboHobo
H14T
H16
P18
G-Cat 5.0
P16
--

hahah... doesnt bother me at all... and i thin its great that you did...

BUT if you didn't find the metal, and didnt have access to weld on your own... and didnt mind lugging around all that steel... what do you think all that would cost? probably about $200?

thanks guys..I hadn't thought about the trap wires..stabilzing the mast ..thanks Andrew I'll use the forstay...turbo's rig is real cheap to build..but the trailer that I bought with the boat already has a support there behind the winch..I assumed it was some type of mast support for trailering..so I had already drilled a hole thru it and ran an eye hook thru and bolted and it's on this eye hook I run the block and tackle..Andrew your advise is sound..just trying to save the 200.sometimes it's just better to bite the bullet and buy something that's proven..thanks...there no way the jib halyard would fail..5/16 yatch braid has an enormous break strength..the mast isn't that heavy..but wire sure is alot stronger and has no stretch!

Make sure you get the block or winch or a pivot point, as high as possible when you raise and lower the mast. If you are pulling basically horizontal on the mast at first when you are raising it the tension in the line will be very high. The larger the angle you get between the mast and the winch line, while first raising the mast will greatly reduce the force needed to raise the mast. Our SC20 had a pole with a pulley on top that was probably 7' tall and went right in front of the front crossbeam, to reduce the force needed to raise the mast.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

In other words, the pivot point (head of gin pole) must be higher than mast head when it is in the horizontal position by at least 3 feet, more if possible. On my solo mast step setup I reduce stress on the system by using a painters extension stick to prop up mast at an angle before I begin to winch mast vertical.

The whole point of posting the solo mast step setup on thebeachcats.com was to give other sailors some ideas on "how to", if you don't like the idea of solid rubber bungees, then use something else, maybe ratchet straps for example.

The gin pole is another example, you could use 3" galvanized pipe stepped into 3.5" footer welded onto trailer tongue......

To brace the mast holder, put 2 eyebolts on either side of mast holder and using ratchet straps connect eyebolts to trailer hitch. This will prevent your mast holder from being bent.....

I do not have a patent on my idea or it would not be freely available, I would be selling my idea. I just took what I saw with the EZ Step Mast Raiser on Murrays and used my noodle to build my own with what I had on hand.

You can use my idea, tweak it, make it better, just run with it, it can be done, or as they say here in the MidWest....................Git-R-Done

--
TurboHobo
H14T
H16
P18
G-Cat 5.0
P16
--

Quote

if you don't like the idea of solid rubber bungees, then use something else, maybe ratchet straps for example.

on my H18, i placed 2 eyestraps on my front beam and i so i could tie my crew trapwires (at the thimble) with regular xls line.

... in the end, i never used them for the intended purpose (or any purpose) but they would have worked (if it was real windy and i wanted extra insurance i wouldn't drop the mast due to swaying in a gust (should have used them the day i dropped the mast in a gust, when the step hinge broke and i almost killed my gf at the time).. in hind-sight, i should have let the mast fall on her.. oh well hind sight is 20/20 :)



edited by: andrewscott, Mar 11, 2010 - 12:54 PM

Quote

In other words, the pivot point (head of gin pole) must be higher than mast head when it is in the horizontal position by at least 3 feet, more if possible. On my solo mast step setup I reduce stress on the system by using a painters extension stick to prop up mast at an angle before I begin to winch mast vertical.

Turbo,
I like you idea just want to make sure people understand the force they are putting on the winch and line, it isn't just the weight of the mast for example. You mentioned you broke the rope you initially used, and now also use a pole to get the mast up off the tramp before starting to raise it. These are the ways you have found to overcome the loads put on the system by the flat angle between mast and winch line, and want to make sure other people understand their importance to a safe mast stepping system. Don't want a mast coming down or a winch mount breaking loose.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

Thanks Scott, I hear what you're saying, there are tremendous forces at work when raising the mast and we're using the principals of leverage when we pin the mast base and then raise the mast. The rope that broke was old nylon 1/4", brittle from age and I should have seen it coming, but you know what Andrew says about hindsight......

Quote

.. oh well hind sight is 20/20

--
TurboHobo
H14T
H16
P18
G-Cat 5.0
P16
--

Turbo like the idea too..definitly have to get the mast up some way in the back before canking her up....just a question..because I'm not too familar with the loads on a small cat..really the only"backstay"or rigging is the down haul on the boom/mainsheet traveler...when I used to race one designs we had running backstay's..if for any reason you are on a broad reach or runnng and you loose the main sheet..my only guess is the mast is is going too..any body ever use the trap wires as back up?/

Correct! the main sheeting line attaches the boom to the traveler car for control purposes, there is a camcleat on the mainblock....

but it is hardly used as a gust couild have you over in a jiffy, so when trapped out, the main sheeting line is held in one hand, the tiller in the other and you rely on your trap wire to carry your weight. If you loose your grip on the main sheeting line the cat depowers instantly dunking you into the water. On gentle breeze days, mainsheet is cleated off, body is stretched out on tramp soaking up the rays, or sweltering, whatever the case may be. There is no backup, perhaps one of the other more experienced sailors could explain why......

--
TurboHobo
H14T
H16
P18
G-Cat 5.0
P16
--

The side stays are connected fairly far aft of the mast base. I think this provides the rear stability for the mast in the event your main sheet comes loose. If I recall correctly on some monohulls the side stays are fairly even with the mast base. With the boom extending past the stern of the boat there really isn't a place to attached a "backstay". Even if you used the trap lines, you would need to relocate them often.

I have hearde if you are running a spin, you need to keep your main sheeted tight or you will have major problems with mast strength. But for basic sail configurations I have not heard of a backstay being needed.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
--

check out how to thread your mainsheet through the blocks at.... http://www.thebeachcats.c…pictures&g2_itemId=63029

--
TurboHobo
H14T
H16
P18
G-Cat 5.0
P16
--

I think i am missing something here, but let me answer as far as i understand the questions: (meaning sorry if i am off)

Quote

Turbo like the idea too..definitly have to get the mast up some way in the back before canking her up

many people keep a ladder with them and prop it up under the mast after it is attached at the base to provide an angle. Also people try to build a tripod (or similar) out of pvc for the same reason (i did at 1 time) typically they only work a little but with the right engineering could work fine (mine didnt).

where i sail almost all the regulars trailer backwards (including me). this allows you to prop your mast on the mast trailer yoke and have your angle. there are many tricks to self stepping this way... i use my spinnaker halyard, tied to my jib furler ring. when i get my mast up.. i sheet and cleat my spin halyard to secure the mast as i move forward, hop off and tie up the forestay. others run a line from the forestay through their jib furler ring.

this requires a leap of faith that it will work and not come crashing down on your car. I was not able to have this faith with my h18.. but gained it with my mystere. i have never had any problems.

Quote

....just a question..because I'm not too familar with the loads on a small cat..really the only"backstay"or rigging is the down haul on the boom/mainsheet traveler..

well the "downhaul is on the mast, not the travler so thats not the correct term, but i think you have the correct idea, that the leach of the main is your backstay.

almost no cats have an actual backstay of any kind (some people do modify one in rare occasions, like putting a huge symmetrical spin on a cat),

backstays are typically not needed except when you have a huge spinnaker out pulling your mast in unintended ways.

Quote

if for any reason you are on a broad reach or runnng and you loose the main sheet..my only guess is the mast is is going too..any body ever use the trap wires as back up?/

no, you wont lose your mast or break it (in normal sailing conditions, above 30knots all bets are off) if you drop your main sheet when on a reach or going downwind... as mentioned above you will simply decelerate very quickly... if you were out on the wire, you will take a very wet plunge (called t-bagging)

however if you have a spin out.. and accidentally uncleat your main and it pays out quickly.. you risk your mast (in med to heavy air).. but depends on the cat and mast and if it has spreaders and many other factors.

you really don't want your trap wires hooked up to your rear beam as a back up (backstay).. these would probably rub/shred your sails up pretty quickly, possibly effect/prevent rotation in a gybe and possibly behead you in a capsize..



edited by: andrewscott, Mar 11, 2010 - 03:35 PM

Ahh! I see what you mean, there is a tripod setup to the mast, forestay and 2 sidestays, what stops the mast from falling forward? The 2 sidestays are set far enough back to create a stable tripod, the 2 sidestays exert enough rear force that when you haul on the forestay and raise the mast vertical you have to overcome the force of the 2 sidestays pulling the mast sternwards. The sidestays have chainplates with 7 holes for adjustment so that one can rake the mast more sternward, the forestay has a 10 hole chainplate adjuster to help with this process.

I have lost the mainsheet many times and have been dunked dramatically but have never lost the mast because of loosing the main sheeting line. This setup was carefully planned by catamaran designers to create a most stable tripod which will resist most forces placed on it. The only time one is demasted is if any of the stays break, I hope I have explained this in such a way as to allay your concern

ALLAY
1.to put (fear, doubt, suspicion, anger, etc.) to rest; calm; quiet.
2.to lessen or relieve; mitigate; alleviate: to allay pain.




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TurboHobo
H14T
H16
P18
G-Cat 5.0
P16
--

allay no fears mate just curious..I assumed it had everything to do with design..thanks for details...being a monohull sailor I just kept looking at it wondering under what circumstances the mast could pitch forward and avoid that paricular manuever