Dear All,
I have just joined the group and would be interested in sharing any experiences with the NACRA 450. I live in the Netherlands and sail on an inland lake. I have just bought the 450 and since the start of April I am learning to sail her. I have sailed mono hulls since 1998 and my first cat I built myself which was heavey and had no trapeze. Last week I was in the trapeze for the first time. WOW, what an experience. Wind 3bft gusting 4bft. Until now I have always sailed solo and I am a bit apprehensive to start using the jib under the same conditions. However, I am sure that using the jib will ease the tacking and will balance the boat better. Under main alone she is very sensitive on the rudder which makes climbing into the trapeze a little awkward.

Thanks and I hope to meet some other NACRA 450 sailors,
Martin

Martin,
Congrats on your new purchase and welcome to the fold (the dark side really since you do own a Nacra). :)

Trapezing off of my uncles Hobie 16 when I was a kid was actually the main reason I bought my Nacra 5.2 (some 20 years later). One of the coolest things you can do on the water. Soloing with a jib is always a bit of a juggling act, so starting off with just the main is a good idea. I learned the hard way this year that even with 2 people starting the season with one sail is a good idea until you get your sea legs back.

Enjoy!

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Hey Dave call me ignorant or naive but I always thought that sailing with a jib is much easier than without especially for beginners

--
Nacra 5.2
--

Yes and no. Tacking with a jib is easier when you are starting out because you can back wind it. This isn't the best or fastest way to tack though.

Once you learn how to do a roll tack though (see Rick White's book and/or videos) it isn't as big a deal. I was having problems earlier this season because my crew wasn't cooperating and and a few things were going wrond on me. Normally I don't have a problem sailing through a tack.

When soloing though I think that having to work the main and jib as well as steer is too much of a workload, especially for a beginner. You need to cleat one of the lines to work the other and that is a fast way to a capsize or pitchpole, especially in gusty winds. A lot of people do sail solo with 2 sails but when you are learning your boat I believe you are better off just concentrating on working the main and the helm.

You will also notice that most of the single handed boats are rigged Uni. Some examples are the Hobie 14, Hobie 17, Hobie FXone and all the F17s.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

i find sailing with the jib that air flowing from the 5.2's big overlapping jib around the back of the sail always streams the tell-tales even when i have the traveller in less than ideal position. generally centered even when reaching

sailing without the jib makes you work the traveller much more to keep the tell-tales streaming and so sail without jib occasionally just as a training exercise on traveller positioning

plus racing a h16 2-up we find soloing the 5.2 with both sails leads to too big an advantage for close racing

so either carry crew or soloing with only the jib is a way of handicapping the 5.2 back to about a h16 2up



edited by: erice, Jun 11, 2010 - 07:02 PM

Dear All,
Thanks for all your comments. With regard to tacking I do find it difficult to tack cleanly every time, and the boat does end up in irons quite often. After the tack, even if the bows have gone through the wind, the boat luffs up before she has a chance to gather way. I think this maybe due to the mast being raked too far aft. Also adjusting the traveller position may help. Note that the 450 is a boomless rig which may change the way it behaves compared to other rigs with booms. Any help/tips on tuning the rig using main alone are greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,

Martin.

if blowing the mainsheet as you go into the tack is not working for you

blow both mainsheet AND traveller as you go into the tack

this is especially important as the wind strengthens and if you don't know what "roll tack" means;o)

Hi Erice,
Thanks for the tip. Next time I'm out (comming weekend hopefully) I'll give it a go. I've just been reading up on roll tacks so plenty to try. Any thoughts on the mast rake? If the mast is raked too far aft could this also make things more difficult?

Thanks,

Martin

Martin,
It ain't mast rake, so quit worrying about it. Don't worry about roll tacking either, yet. Learn the basics on boat handling. Time on the water and you will get it. Concentrate on boat speed, a gentle turn of the tiller, and easing the main to get on the new tack. You are going to make this really hard on yourself if you try to learn this without your jib.


--
Philip
--

Philip,
Tacking with the jib is no problem. I am using the main only set-up in more windy conditions (3-4bft and in trapeze) but the tacking is more problematic. Main only means less to worry about and the set-up more forgiving when I make a mistake. Tacking with the main only should be possible with the correct tuning and a good technique but being used to dinghies it's just taking a bit of time to settle down on the cat.

Thanks,

Martin

Martin,
It's a skeg boat (boardless), is not really designed to sail uni. . . . but if you insist on trying to sail it uni, move your weight forward to get the leeward bow underwater.

Think about what you said. "I am using the main only set-up in more windy conditions (3-4bft and in trapeze) but the tacking is more problematic. Main only means less to worry about and the set-up more forgiving when I make a mistake."

As the wind pressure builds, tacking uni is much more difficult than sloop, ESPECIALLY on a boardless skeg boat. To politely disagree, main only is not more forgiving when you make a mistake, especially tacking. As the wind pressure builds, the jib is your friend.

How much do you weigh?

--
Philip
--

go the jib

it's a small enough jib on a small enough boat

beginner skiers don't want to wax their skis cause they don't want to go faster

but unwaxed they won't slide evenly and handling them in the turn becomes much harder

much the same with the jib, you need the extra control it gives until you become more familiar with the boat

if it's feeling over powered with the jib maybe try sailing earlier in the day when the winds are lighter

OK. My weight is 80Kg (176lb). The coming weekend I will have a crew with me so we will definately be using the jib. The forecast is 3-4bft again but with the two of us I have a lot more confidence. And there lies the crux of the issue. I just need to gain experience and with that will come confidence.
Thanks for taking the time

Martin.

small multi's really settle down with an extra adult on board, you should be fine this weekend

just make sure he moves to to the windward side of the boat each tack/gybe

you don't want him sinking the downwind ama

Thanks, really looking forward to this weekend. I'll let you know next week how we get on.

Quote

you don't want him sinking the downwind ama

(hull)

perhaps a good idea would be to learn how to max depower the cat with the jib .

on my cat this is achieved by:
1 limit the mast rotation
2 max the main outhaul (making the sail flat)
3 downhaul the main (making the sail flat) and allowing air to spill off the top
4. travel out a few inches

and there are a few other ways as well but people with your cat should detail this more than i. i don't know nacra's well

Andrew,
My rig is boomless so there is no out haul. This is why I was curious about the mast rake. Changing the mast rake will change the angle at which the main sheet makes with the sail. This in turn will affect how the main sheet determines the sail shape. I can also attach the mainsheet block along a series of holes along the horizontal also changing this angle. The further forward the more the sail will be depowered. I haven't found anyone yet who also sails the 450 and I think all of the people who have reacted so far sail with booms. Is this correct?

Martin

Those holes in your clew are your outhaul for your main. And yes forward is a flatter sail and depowers. The 5.5 and 6.0 had a harken travler car with a cam cleat so it was adjustable on the fly. About a $400 to $600 upgarde built on to the sail. I sailed a 5.5 SL for 12 years.

--
Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
--

No Martin,

I know and sail boomless rigs. You are overthinking this, and some of the advise is more appropriate for high performance boats and more advanced sail trim. The 450 simply does not fall into the high performance catagory where outhauls, downhauls, rake, tension, etc. come into play. It is really designed as a fun recreational boat.

Put the mainsheet on the center or just forward of center hole on the clew plate. If it's honking, before you go out, move it forward a hole or two, that's it. For now forget about the mast rake and spend some time on the water and learn the boat and how to control it. Focus on the mainsheet, traveler, and jib sheet.

--
Philip
--

i believe you are correct about depowering the main by moving your blocks forward on the clewplate (pulling on the foot of the main more acting like an outhaul).

Also, as the wind hits the water it is angled up at the sail. i BELIEVE raking the mast back is has more of a depowering effect due to a change in the angle of the sail in relation to the wind (if you hold your hand open and up, and then tilt it back, you can see this illustrated pretty well). this change in angle will also spill more off the top of the sail.

the combo of mast rake and sheeting angle (block position on the clewp plate) can help spill air off the entire leach as well.. but i have never owned a boomless cat and this is more theory than i have a working knowledge of.

for further reading try to nacra 16sq tuning guide

http://www.goosemarine.com.au/_content/documents/general/11%20mf%20nacra%2016sq%20tuning%20guide

but best is to get up early and sail it lots when the air is light

it'll all come together

andrewscott

Also, as the wind hits the water it is angled up at the sail. i BELIEVE raking the mast back is has more of a depowering effect due to a change in the angle of the sail in relation to the wind (if you hold your hand open and up, and then tilt it back, you can see this illustrated pretty well). this change in angle will also spill more off the top of the sail.

the combo of mast rake and sheeting angle (block position on the clewp plate) can help spill air off the entire leach as well..

Huh?

andrewscott

but i have never owned a boomless cat and this is more theory than i have a working knowledge of.

oh, OK.


--
Philip
--

OK. Thanks for the link. I'll have a read when I get home. I won't have time to sail before the weekend so I'm just trying to get as much info together as possible before my next outing. I know the 450 is a recreational boat that's why I chose it but it still has a lot more performance than I am used to. I just need to tame it a bit so I can get used to it a bit at a time before letting her rip. The mast is still at the factory setting and I will leave it so but I still like to understand how the adjustments affect performance/sail shape etc. There is a lot of good advice here for which I'm greatful and I'm getting a good idea of what and what not to do next time I sail.

So thanks to you all for all the effort.

Martin

mummp

andrewscott

Also, as the wind hits the water it is angled up at the sail. i BELIEVE raking the mast back is has more of a depowering effect due to a change in the angle of the sail in relation to the wind (if you hold your hand open and up, and then tilt it back, you can see this illustrated pretty well). this change in angle will also spill more off the top of the sail.

the combo of mast rake and sheeting angle (block position on the clewp plate) can help spill air off the entire leach as well..

Huh?

andrewscott

but i have never owned a boomless cat and this is more theory than i have a working knowledge of.

oh, OK.

this wind/angle theory is from Rick White's catamaran racing in the 90's.

Andrew,
I was just ribbing you for all the experienced advice/ theory you were giving having never owned a boomless rig.

Let's just confuse the shit out of the lad, will ya. . .

--
Philip
--

mummp

Andrew,
I was just ribbing you for all the experienced advice/ theory you were giving having never owned a boomless rig.

Let's just confuse the shit out of the lad, will ya. . .

Yes Philip, we know you LOVE to give me crap. and since i am a big boy now... i can handle it... (as i love to throw it right back atcha)....

He's been sailing since 1998. i THINK he can handle a little theory behind mast rake...

and i have sailed on, and skippered boomless cats, just not owned any
boomless. do i have to own one to explain how rake depowers?

and furthermore... bite me ;~p



edited by: andrewscott, Jun 15, 2010 - 12:09 PM

Hello to you all,
Been out a few times lately. We have only had light winds 2-3 bft recently but that is fine until now. I've been trying out a few things and can now tack the boat reliably using the main only. Also been doing some sailing with the jib and as predicted she tacks much easier. One question remains, when I'm in the trapeze the shroud hangs loose. Now seeing as the winds have been light this may be OK but I'm not sure whether to tighten the shrouds one hole or not. Any suggestions?
Thanks for all the advice so far, it has really helped.

Kind regards,

Martin

your lee stay will always have some slack in it.. as the mast is bending that way..

if your windward side-stay gets slack when you get on the wire... you got some issues.... it's almost impossible to have slack in your windward stay....

when rigging, you want tight stays and bridal. not so tight they inhibit mast rotation, but snug as a bug. lose rigging is not such a big deal in light air.. but not a good thing in heavy air..

Martin,
Your shrouds should be loose enough that you can rotate the mast just over 180 deg. from port to starboard. When sailing in light wind in the trap the windward shroud can have the slack that is normally in the lee shroud. If you weigh 176lb and the wind is exerting less than that on on the sail you will have slack. If the wind quits you can also pull the boat over, don't ask me how I know!



edited by: skarr1, Jul 03, 2010 - 11:15 AM