why did Nacra set up the 5.2 with the block arrangement. It gets in the way and is a pain. Any suggestions?

--
Nacra 5.2
--

Run the jib 'travelers' under the tramp except for between the two slots.

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

I think it has its merits. For one it allows you to set the correct sheeting angle to match the mast rake you set for the wind, waves and crew weight. Of course, the angle can also be set reasonably well with a clew plate.

On the 5.2 I think money was also a big factor. Getting the sheeting location to the main beam means a bigger, lower jib. This means a bow foil is required and a jib with a window because you wouldn't be able to see under it otherwise. Just my opinion mind you, I have no info from anyone "in the know" to confirm this.

I leave my wires uncovered, over the tramp and wind the trim-line around the aft end of the wire so they move together. That at least "removes" one line from the skippers end, so I don't get caught up in it.

Some people move the wires' connection points to the under side of the beams and only have it appear above the tramp, through a couple of patches, for about a foot and a half. I chose not to do this for fear the wires and salt would chafe my tramp from the underside, where I wouldn't be able to see it.

terry it sounds as though this old thoroughbred is kicking you in the shins

ask around, some young fulla may want to swap it for an old nag that is happier to walk the kids round in circles than keep'em honest in the grand national

the 5.2 was designed as a full on race boat, a la 1975, (that's 35 years ago!) with every string to pull that they could think of at the time

it's mission?, to beat the all conquering hobie 16 around a race course

which it did and in doing so became the grandfather to the modern f18 and perhaps even the vx40

in 1975, big over lapping jibs were the hot performance ticket

that jib needs the blocks in that position, close to the boats centre. (the previous owner of mine moved the blocks to the hulls to free up some tramp space) but i soon moved them back over the tramp when the jib refused to trim when pointing. now on our little lake at least no one thinks cats can't point

hobies, prindles etc. were more aimed at the recreational market so that cut of jib was never chosen. hobie used a fully battened jib (which seems to hang on the mast every tack in light air)

trying to turn an old race machine into a recreational machine means making some changes or living with the old racing compromises

when i want to carry people on my 5.2 i don't rig the jib and take the blocks and sheets off. if people want to sit on the tramp i find they aren't looking for hull flying thrills anyway

when i'm racing the jib blocks aren't a worry solo. and the 5.2 really powers up solo which is why i try not to sail with crew

ideally to update the 5.2 you'd do what the tornado did from classic to modern and fit a taller? narrower self tacking jib and an assym spin

but that pretty much makes it a 2 person boat that costs about the same as an older f18, so what's the point?

the last 5.2 jib blocks were a bit further out and further back, just inboard of the daggers. a common mod was to sew reinforcement cloth to the tramp and then mount the blocks directly to the tramp. it gets rid of the wires but the sheets still get in the way of tramp lounging passengers





edited by: erice, Jun 16, 2010 - 09:33 PM

erice you are wise beyond your years

--
Nacra 5.2
--

Terry,
One option could be to move the jib blocks and barber hauler to the front beam (although you don't really need the barberhauler for a rec boat) using a couple of strap eyes and get a smaller jib or your existing jib recut (or buy a used jib and have it cut down). You could probably do it without needing a bow foil if you keep the luff the same length as the current jib. It will seriously reduce your total jib area but unless you are racing this isn't a problem. I would give Whirlwind a call and see what Chip says (or any other sail loft you care to use).

D.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Quote

that jib needs the blocks in that position, close to the boats centre. (the previous owner of mine moved the blocks to the hulls to free up some tramp space) but i soon moved them back over the tramp when the jib refused to trim when pointing. now on our little lake at least no one thinks cats can't point

Do you have a barberhauler?

On mine it seems like if I sheet the jib ALL the way it backwinds the main just a bit. I pull the barberhauler to get about an inch of tension (when I'm not lazy) and it seems to perform a touch better. Maybe its all mental, though.

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

i don't have a barberhauler system for the jib and you're right, pulling the jib right in starts back winding the main

i know this is heresy in the "cat. racing in the 90's" bible but my gps implies that backwinding the main a little isn't the performance killer that rick white says

BUT, it does allow me to point a degree or 2 higher which i need to tack up the narrow channels around our racemarker island, (between the tourists in row boats, peddle boats, a couple of ferries and loads of bass fishermen trolling around randomly and refusing to look up from the water

i have moved the jib blocks out a smidgen and might try a bit further out, (to reduce the backwinding) and forward (as the top tell tale still breaks first) but i'm trying to avoid the added sheets and cleats of a barber hauler system which seem of marginal benefit with the short length of our downwind gybe sections

you know i can't stop posting these videos hehe

solo and jibless, still reasonable performance in medium air
http://vimeo.com/5075989

tacking around fishermen in the channel at 0.46sec
trying to avoid collision with fisherman texting as he motors at 0.53sec
http://vimeo.com/5258062

crash tack at 2.55sec as wind shift means island clearance lost
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-kFg4cncnA



edited by: erice, Jun 17, 2010 - 08:39 AM

Quote

i have moved the jib blocks out a smidgen and might try a bit further out, (to reduce the backwinding) and forward (as the top tell tale still breaks first) but i'm trying to avoid the added sheets and cleats of a barber hauler system which seem of marginal benefit with the short length of our downwind gybe sections

Here's mine. The line has an SS ring tied to it that the jib sheet runs through. So really, there's about 2 feet of line and a ring on each side. Really clean way to do it on a 52:



--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

Yurdle please bear with me. I don't see ANYthing holding your jib line. I have an old Prindle 18, and my problem is the jib blocks cleat no matter what is going on. I cant get them at an angle where they can uncleat without a hand right by the block pulling the line away from the cleat. At any tack, jibe or beaching, the jib line has to be forced away from the cleat so slack can pay out. At times this has been a dangerous problem.

--
Repairable P18
--

Yeah, I think I know what you did with the barber hauler but if you could get a pic zoomed out a bit I would like to see how the whole system works. I like the idea of running one of the lines through the front beam!

Captainjon, I'm assuming you have the 4 way system with the wire that goes accross the tramp? With that system you need to adjust the cleat angle on the jib blocks all the way up to start off and then fiddle with the angle till you find the one that works best for you. Also they are usually setup with a shock cord between the two jib blocks to allow them to be barberhauled outboard. I may be better to just set the location of the blocks with line instead of shock cord and not adjust them on the fly. This would give you more positive tension on the blocks to uncleat them. Prindle guys, does that make sense or am I completely off base? I know I had to fiddle with the cleat angle on my 5.2 until I got it right.

D.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Wolf - The 18 has a different system than the 18-2, which is what has the 4-way. The 18 you set and forget with a single line going between the jib blocks. The line runs through some grommets in the tramp that can move the blocks forward and back a touch, depending on the grommets used. You can't reasonably adjust it on the water.

I'll try to find another pic. I was just looking through pics on my network for that one -- I don't have the opportunity to go take one before next week, as there's an event in Houston this week I think I'm going to have to attend. =)

Pirateboy - you might have to use some imagination, or else be more specific about how I can help. I don't think this setup is technically impossible on a P18, but its pretty impractical the way the main beam is set up, especially since most P18s already have a barberhauler.

As far as the cleating issue, if you've already tried adjusting the cleat position on the block, try using a larger line. 1/4" line on a jib sheet can be a total bitch to pop from the cleat if the jib backwinds. 3/8" practically jumps out.

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

Zoomed out, although not a great perspective:



--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

Guys what is the heck is a barberhauler? Exactly

--
Nacra 5.2
--

Erice what is covering your jib traveler wires? Great video, you have convinced me to go sail w/o a jib today. I hope I can tack w/o one

--
Nacra 5.2
--

Ah, a barberhauler is a line that attaches to your jib sheet (above the blocks) to move the jib clew towards the outward hull. It is used to make the gap between the jib and main larger for better airflow, usually when sailing downwind. Non-racing cats will often not have them and just set the blocks in an average position. On a hobie 16 the same thing is accomplished by putting the jib sheet cleat on a traveller car on the front beam.

Erice's traveler wires just run under the tramp except for about 1 foot. There are 2 slots in his tramp that allow the wire to come up above the tramp and attach to the blocks. My photo here: http://www.thebeachcats.com/index.php?module=pictures&g2_itemId=74166 shows someting similar except I used grommets and white sail patch to reinforce my tramp. The barberhauler is the yellow and red line and my jib wires are dyneema line with a plastic wire cover covering the part where the jib block runs.

D.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Captain Jon,
I think I understand your problem. Try this. I did it to to my jib block to eliminate the problem under certain sailing setups. Made all the difference in the world, and also made solo much more manageable. The cleat was remounted up-side-down and the fairlead removed.



Erice,
Interesting point regarding backwinding the the main. I believed the same thing, until I started racing and watched other boats walk away from me when backwinding. The difference was unnoticeable on the GPS but huge on the race coarse. A micro amount of speed made a big difference on the race course. The difference is less noticeable on the pintop older sails, but on a modern high aspect main, you can actually feel the difference in speed.



edited by: mummp, Jun 17, 2010 - 10:01 AM

--
Philip
--

Quote

Ah, a barberhauler is a line that attaches to your jib sheet (above the blocks) to move the jib clew towards the outward hull. It is used to make the gap between the jib and main larger for better airflow, usually when sailing downwin

to add to this:
the barberhauler moves the clew (bottom/aft) of the jib outward and forward (to the beam) to create more of a pocket (think parachute) with your jib. this is used exclusively downwind on a beam /broad reach when your sails are pushing you along downwind (apposed to upwind when they are a wing shape, creating lift to move you)

my system outlined in yellow ...



ps i now use plastic rings as this is a low friction use and they weightless (pictured here are my old blocks) and keep them on my jib sheets at all times... but remove the barberhauler line when i have crew... and not racing as its just another thing to get tangled in... has limited use (only on a reach), i fly a spinnaker when i can, and i already have 1000000 lines on my cat...



edited by: andrewscott, Jun 17, 2010 - 12:24 PM

Captain Jon, we all suffer with the sheeting angles. It requires (for me at least) either a good FLIP of the line to uncleat it, or as i tack and move to the other side, i grab it (at the cleat)and pull down on the line to uncleat it. i MIGHT try philip's idea

Philip. VERY NICE - Good idea

mummp

Captain Jon,
I think I understand your problem. Try this. I did it to to my jib block to eliminate the problem under certain sailing setups. Made all the difference in the world, and also made solo much more manageable. The cleat was remounted up-side-down and the fairlead removed.

edited by: andrewscott, Jun 17, 2010 - 12:29 PM

You guys are great.

--
Nacra 5.2
--

golfdad, my jib wires are on the tramp and covered in bits of blue hose. normal tacking without the jib is easy in light and medium winds but difficult in stronger winds. get some practise at backing the boat out of irons and be ready to blow the traveller in tacks as well as the main

mummp, you're probably right on backwinding the main slowing the boat, but pinching is KING on our short courses

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNAsxV1ltMU

i would have put the jib wires under the tramp now but i'm still trying to work out EXACTLY where i want the cuts. i'm already forward and outboard of everyone else it seems but still they seem to want to a bit further forward and outboard

no big rush for tiny performance gains yet as the hobie guys haven't mastered soloing with trap yet

ps on the jib blocks cam angle is everything for easy release. for solo use i have them set so i can easily cleat and uncleat from the back of the boat, when i have crew, as they are further forward, they have to reach right back into my lap to uncleat. so it looks like i need to have different crewed and solo cleat angles

as stated the adjust-ability is only about 45 degrees of movement, if you are outside that you generally need to take the cleat arms off and flip them over so the cleat releases in the opposite position. sometimes VERY hard to beat 25 years of corrosion on the threads though...



edited by: erice, Jun 18, 2010 - 07:54 AM

Quote

but pinching works in narrow channels

Absolutely.

--
Philip
--

Quote

he barberhauler moves the clew (bottom/aft) of the jib outward and forward (to the beam) to create more of a pocket (think parachute) with your jib. this is used exclusively downwind on a beam /broad reach when your sails are pushing you along downwind (apposed to upwind when they are a wing shape, creating lift to move you)

Andrew,
I wish that it was someone else that posted this so it does not seem like I'm picking on you, cause I'm not.
The sails are not being pushed downwind. It is always lift (low pressure on the leeward side of the sail) that drives the boat forward. Beachcats, due to their high speeds downwind, move the apparent wind forward a great deal. The barberhauler (on boats with overlapping jibs) is an effective tool to help prevent the jib from stalling on the leach and also choking the main. Thus, putting the jib in a more efficient trim and also providing additional power on the main, by creating a larger slot, provide more lift for the main sail. The barberhaulers intent is not to move the clew forward, but to move the clew outbound. The sheeting tension will be the effective tool to reach the desired shape (flat vs. full) for the jib.

Notice that your shroud telltales will always be flowing aft when sailing downwind (apparent wind due to speed). The most exciting point of sail is to find that point of magic when the jib, main, traveler and barberhauler, and especially heading all comes together and the boat just takes off. The real magic is to maintain this burst of speed and keep it in the groove. I find this point of magic more exciting that spinnaker sailing down wind. It is truly a rush.

--
Philip
--

OK, since everyone is talking about trimming the jib, I have question. On my 5.2, I have the cables above the tramp with the jib blocks attached to the cables. There is a line that runs aft from each block to a cleat on the aft cross member allows for a fore and aft adjustment of the block locations on the cables. I have no idea how to trim this adjustment. Since I sail with (and inevitably end up in a race with) a guy on a 5.7 I usually need all of the speed I can muster so if anyone can give me some tech. input as to what I should be looking for when I adjust the locations of the blocks, I would really appreciate it.

the line running from the block to the back beam allows you to balance the foot of the sail vs. the leech of the sail so the upper and lower telltales break at the same time, showing you have the best "shape" for that jib-sheet tension

i'm a bit furry on this as i don't have the jam cleats on my rear beam, i just knot the line through the saddle

basically if you are sailing upwind close-hauled and the upper and lower jib telltales are streaming back nicely if you let the jib sheet out slowly and the top leeward telltale stalls first, the jib leech is a little looser than the foot. to correct this adjust that jib block position line so the block goes forward a few inches and then tighten the jib sheet to get both telltales streaming again

continue repeating the process until both rear telltales stall at virtually the same time

i've set mine for close-hauled and left them as that's the point of sail i spend the most time.

it would be slightly different for reaching and a useful adjustment for 1 design racing with crew, it will give you a tiny bit more speed, 0.1%?, but in most cases will not be enough to keep up with a longer boat with a bigger sail, like the 5.7?