So, thinking about the day I most recently broke my boat..

We decided to sheet the jib ALL the way in to stall it and close the slot, to try to depower the main, while we double trapped.

I have an older 5.2 without swept spreaders, so downhaul past wrinkles is counterproductive.

I'm wondering if we'd opened the jib all the way up with the barberhauler, but sheeted tight, would have lessened the heeling force enough to counteract the extra power in the main. What do you guys do? Jib all the way in or all the way out?

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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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Do I understand the question correctly, you are concerned about to much heel & tipping?
I always set the main first, then trim the jib to match.
If the heeling force is such that you are going swimming, the easiest way to reduce it is travel out. I have soloed my 5.7 in 20 kts (an accurate 20, data from the marine buoy)by travelling 1/2 way, then trim jib to match.
Loose diamond wires also give less power,(mast bends more), but I don't bother changing them, I leave them at "medium" setting.


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Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
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Rob,
Barberhauler pulls jib clew down, loading the leach and making jib shape more round. You should use it downwind. You may try a bit of it upwind looking for MORE power. In double trapping conditions you always go close hauled or close reaching unless true wind is behind you. It happens because with cat's speed the apparent wind moves forward a lot. Wind is very gusty and shifts are often huge in my area, so I go for maximum speed, which helps me to diminish the effect of those shifts. The boat feels stable going fast. If I close the slot, I lose speed and stability. It is recommended to open the leach in high wind and "spill" the wind. I did not feel much difference on my boat, so I don't do it. I just sheet the jib almost all the way in and aim for speed. In your case I believe you should get substantial depowering controlling your mast rotation. Then combined effect of tight main sheet and downhaul should bend your mast and make the main flat.
What kind of spreaders do you have? You mean they are not adjustable?

a lot will depend on how the boat broke...

personally i thinking flogging these 30yo warhorses 2-up in a blow is just asking for trouble

would you be surprised if you took a shelby cobra, with new paint, tyres and seats, to a drag strip to try and match the times it recorded new

and ended up snapping drive-shafts, stripping ring-gears and blowing holes in pistons?

everything ages4

and gets weaker as it does

just ask granddad

Ed: Thanks, but I'm not talking about winds where 'trimming' is an issue. All sails flat, period. When we finally did go swimming, the boat was gone within seconds.

Andre: Most 5.2's (pre '84) don't have swept spreaders, they're more akin to the type on mono's. As such, when using a modern sq. top sail that's made for prebend, any downhaul beyond removing wrinkles actually fattens the sail.

Eric: Even though I was lucky enough to play with a DB9 yesterday, the most surprising part of your post would be someone letting me take their cobra to the track. Certainly nothing about smashing up the hull was surprising..I was there. I was glad we weren't hurt. I was a bit surprised that we bent the 9/16 SS bolt 80 degrees and didn't lose the mast, but I'm sure not bitching about it.


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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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Rob, I must miss something. What did actually happen?

Rob did you total out a hull or is it an easy fix?

fa1321

Rob did you total out a hull or is it an easy fix?

I'd say it's somewhere in between. I'm going to have a pile of port hulls at this rate, though.
@Andre: Just another day of sailing. I was really just curious if anyone had experience with high winds and how they set their sails, but I don't think I've done a good job of explaining it. If I've got time tonight I'll try to clarify it. Thanks



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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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interesting...

i have tried to de-power a 6.0 by choking off the jib slot, if it had any effect, i couldn't tell.. my "sail theory" tells me it couldn't have been good, or helped. What i would think it did was back wind the main and actually make it less stable (gusts have more sudden heeling)

I think Andre makes a good point that at certain speed.. you are more stable than at less speed with more heeling action. i feel that in my boat (to a degree).

Also interesting that EC sheets to his main first, and then sets his jib. i do the opposite, i set my jib (even if my telltales are 100%.. i get it snug first) so its doing its job, then set my main. If i attend to the main first, i a may fall into irons (of course i somehow have to maintain my tiller control)

BUT in high winds, if i am overpowered (regardless of 1 or 2 up) i would furl if i could. If not, i would make all my sails flat as possible.

BUT (again) This is for my sail/mast/prebend. you may not be able to get a 20 year old pin top on a fixed mast (non adjustable spreaders) to play right (flatten out to depower) and then all this "theory" is not right.

I heard an old sailor say the big stick is suppose to go up.

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Nacra 5.2
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i have tried to de-power a 6.0 by choking off the jib slot, if it had any effect, i couldn't tell.. my "sail theory" tells me it couldn't have been good, or helped. What i would think it did was back wind the main and actually make it less stable (gusts have more sudden heeling)

I agree that it makes it less stable due to extra heeling, which is why I posted. However, the alternative, a fully powered main, is no less daunting. I should also specify here that my main is a sqauretop cut for prebend, on an old style nacra mast, which makes the pocket HUGE.

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I think Andre makes a good point that at certain speed.. you are more stable than at less speed with more heeling action. i feel that in my boat (to a degree).

Again, I totally agree. Slowing down is how I snapped my boom earlier this year. These boats are meant to be sailed.. However, we didn't lack for speed at all. Actually, when we finally did go over it was because we pitched it going slightly to weather. The sails were constantly outrunning the hulls.

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Also interesting that EC sheets to his main first, and then sets his jib. i do the opposite, i set my jib (even if my telltales are 100%.. i get it snug first) so its doing its job, then set my main. If i attend to the main first, i a may fall into irons (of course i somehow have to maintain my tiller control)

Yea that's not an option in high wind. Even in moderate winds, I have a pretty standard sequence, with crew or without -- sheet jib to 85% (actually with a little barberhauler first, even upwind), set main, set jib. In high winds, though, nothing's more important than getting the jib and weight distribution right when coming about, and getting it done fast.

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BUT in high winds, if i am overpowered (regardless of 1 or 2 up) i would furl if i could. If not, i would make all my sails flat as possible.

Unfortunately not an option for me (however I WAS looking at the furler you were selling until this happened..). So, yep, sails sheeted as far as possible, main traveled..just not sure if I want the jib all the way out so that it's almost luffed, or all the way in to kill the slot.

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BUT (again) This is for my sail/mast/prebend. you may not be able to get a 20 year old pin top on a fixed mast (non adjustable spreaders) to play right (flatten out to depower) and then all this "theory" is not right.

Yea, like I said up top, it's not the original sail. The pintop is much easier to control, even though its a bit blown out, but I didn't have it that day. The difference in helm and sheeting force is remarkable.
I have trouble describing how the mast and sail don't work together...its much easier to see. But if you can imagine grabbing a batten, representing the mast, at the height that the stays would attach, and pushing it against the ground from that spot you'd have an arch, like a pre-bent mast. Then push the center of the batten inward to straighten the lower part of the batten, so it looks more like a hockey stick...if you imagine a sail in there you can see how it just fattens up its belly.

I can fly a hull in very low winds for a 5.2, but can't depower to save my life. (hence my WTB new mast ad)

Thanks

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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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The more I read on this forum the less I know. But those of you who set the jib first in high winds I believe are fooling yourselves.

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Nacra 5.2
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i've thought of pulling my jib right in to stall it as a way of de-powering

but that's really only going to work if you can keep the wind head on and the jib flogging

otherwise, like trying to carry a large sheet of plywood across a windy yard, a tight jib on a cat in strong winds will try and turn the boat around and then over....

Everyone is talking about sail setting, mast position etc., but are failing to mention the most important thing, BOAT HANDLING SKILLS, spend more time on the water in higher winds and you will be a better high wind sailor. Learning you own method of depowering will make you feel more comfortable in higher winds.

golfdad75

The more I read on this forum the less I know. But those of you who set the jib first in high winds I believe are fooling yourselves.

in what way?

erice

i've thought of pulling my jib right in to stall it as a way of de-powering

but that's really only going to work if you can keep the wind head on and the jib flogging

otherwise, like trying to carry a large sheet of plywood across a windy yard, a tight jib on a cat in strong winds will try and turn the boat around and then over....

The apparent wind will always be in your face in this situation, and while it certainly pushes on the jib, and therefore the bows, you DO have control of the tiller.

Basically, the amount of heel I had wasn't too much, it was just too much FOR ME to consistently hold the windward bow barely over the water. It was either skimming, and getting beat to hell, or we'd go up to almost 45 degrees fairly quickly, which is just too high to think that the tramp won't catch wind and push you over, so I'd have to round up and lose speed, which is also all bad.

My crew, who is a better sailor than me, took the helm for a while due to a trap line/harness issue, and he had less trouble keeping it where it needed to be, but we'd also incurred all the damage at that point and were just trying to get home however we could.

This was at a point most people would consider it survival sailing due to the chop, but we WERE out there for fun (and i wanted practice).. So again just wondering which method any of you would use in similar conditions.

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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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Rob,
In my first post in this thread I had one more point

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... In your case I believe you should get substantial depowering controlling your mast rotation. Then combined effect of tight main sheet and downhaul should bend your mast and make the main flat.

Square top offers you not only power in light wind, but good depowering in high winds as well. You have to bend the mast and have tight main sheet. Yes, it is harder to do without prebend, but if you bring mast rotation arm as close to boom as possible, tight main sheet will bend you mast. Also it will release the top of the square top sail, spilling that upper wind. With limited rotation you are not fighting diamonds, but bending you mast in frontal plane. And yes, limiting rotation is depowering feature by itself.
Anything wrong here? BTW, I do have swept spreaders, but no prebend. I think prebend theory is younger than my boat.

for the whole "downhaul the main to depower" thing to work you need;

- pre-bend in the mast, which means swept spreaders and massive loads on the diamonds
- 20? to 1 downhaul that can be operated from the both hulls
- a sail designed for big down haul with a reinforced downhaul grommet etc.

pretty radical and expensive changes to a 30yr old boat if you currently have straight spreaders....

which is why most people would be better off selling an old 5.2 for $1500 and buying a old hobie tiger for $5000

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Square top offers you not only power in light wind, but good depowering in high winds as well. You have to bend the mast and have tight main sheet. Yes, it is harder to do without prebend, but if you bring mast rotation arm as close to boom as possible, tight main sheet will bend you mast. Also it will release the top of the square top sail, spilling that upper wind. With limited rotation you are not fighting diamonds, but bending you mast in frontal plane. And yes, limiting rotation is depowering feature by itself.
Anything wrong here? BTW, I do have swept spreaders, but no prebend. I think prebend theory is younger than my boat.

I agree, that is the best way for me to flatten the main, and unfortunately I haven't used it much. I needed to loosen my diamonds a touch. TBH, I really don't remember how I set it that day, but usually I set it for the best entry to the wind thinking I'll rotate it farther if I need and forget all about it. WAIT...totally misread your post. No I think that it would depower more if I let it rotate all the way, and bend on its minor axis (straight from Rick White's book..) Limiting all rotation would make for some ugly entry into the wind, but I don't see it flattening the sail. Maybe it would spill the top a touch more, but that doesn't really affect the total power generated like flattening the sail.

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pretty radical and expensive changes to a 30yr old boat if you currently have straight spreaders....

which is why most people would be better off selling an old 5.2 for $1500 and buying a old hobie tiger for $5000

I actually disagree with you here, but I think it's pretty subjective. In my situation, if I fix the hull, I'll report back the consequences of adding swept spreaders and new diamonds if I can't find another mast.

As for the 20:1 and controls to the wire, I don't think that's a necessity. It would be nice just to be able to set it and forget it flattened compared to the current set up.

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Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
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With 20 to 1, a child could pull the head out.

16 to 1 and my wife can pull the head out. That's what we used on our 91 5.5SL, 97 sails, 420lbs on the diamonds and 1.75in of spreader rake, sailing at 295lbs crew weight. The downhaul would bend the snot out of the mast.

Only use 8 to 1 on the F18.

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Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
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Rob,

I'm coming into this pretty late. As you know I have almost exactly the same boat and sail as you (Chip made both our sails from the same design I think). I am putting some swept spreaders on the boat but in the mean time I have had to figure out how to depower this monster sail! I took the advice in Rick White's book and have slightly loose diamond wires so the mast bends on the minor axis and overrotate the mast. Then I rigged a 6:1 downhaul using a hobie 3:1 and running and extra line through the cringle to double it. So I reef on the downhaul and bend the upper 1/3 to 1/2 of the mast (very noticable). All you need is 6:1 because the mast bends easily on the minor axis.

I went out a couple of times this year double trapped. I downhauled the jib as tight as I could without detensionng the forestay completely and sheeted it tight. I sheeted the main hard to flatten it and twist the top off just adjusted the traveller. I was really surprised how smooth and quiet the ride got when we were flying with everything so tight. But the waves on my lake are never very large.

Your right the boat is meant to have the snot sailed out of it! Sounds like one weak link may have got you.

What exactly did you break? I saw the main beam and dolphin striker. If you need any bits and pieces like beam straps let me know, I have a few things laying around that I could donate to the cause.

D.

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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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16 to 1 and my wife can pull the head out. That's what we used on our 91 5.5SL, 97 sails, 420lbs on the diamonds and 1.75in of spreader rake, sailing at 295lbs crew weight. The downhaul would bend the snot out of the mast.

Ron,
Were you using standard Nacra5.5SL mast and sail? I always wanted some prebend like on F18, but was not sure the standard mast and the sail can handle it. Can you share more of your experience with that?

ADixon

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16 to 1 and my wife can pull the head out. That's what we used on our 91 5.5SL, 97 sails, 420lbs on the diamonds and 1.75in of spreader rake, sailing at 295lbs crew weight. The downhaul would bend the snot out of the mast.

Ron,
Were you using standard Nacra5.5SL mast and sail? I always wanted some prebend like on F18, but was not sure the standard mast and the sail can handle it. Can you share more of your experience with that?

Andre,
Did we not meet at Juana's about 5 or 6 years ago? You were staying with Mike C. . . .anyway . . .allow me to chime in.

I had the same extrusion on the 5.8NA (the 5.8 and 5.5 share the same extrusion). I purchased a new high aspect ratio main, very much like the F18 or N20 mains. I upgraded the downhaul and basically had the same set up that is on the f18, N20. The performance was phenomenal. The extrusion held up fine and worked as designed. It took a little bit of time to get the diamonds, rake, tension dialed in because there was no one else with the set up for reference.

So, the short answer is yes, the mast extrusion will work and perform well with a wide range of prebend and trim induced bend.



edited by: mummp, Sep 29, 2010 - 01:42 PM

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Philip
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The mast should take it. The amount of bend isn't extreme so the aluminum has enough give to handle it. Masts have to bend a bit under regular loads without prebend, you aren't introducing anything new to it.

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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Philip and Dave,
Thanks for the responses. I won't hesitate to prebend my mast now. I am crewing on Nacra F-18 tonight and seems it's time to take a closer look at her mast setup and reread the tuning manual with an idea of applying it to my boat. Gosh I miss that boom...
Philip, I don't recall the meeting you mention. I might have partial memory loss :)

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Philip, I don't recall the meeting you mention. I might have partial memory loss :)

you would defiantly remember him... he has hairy knuckles that drag on the ground



so easy.. a cave man can do it!

Andre,
Have you been to Navarre Beach? You wouldn't forget that. . .

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Philip
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No, I have not. Not a partial memory loss!
Sigh... May be full memory loss? :)

MN3, I drag my knuckles on the ground too... after a couple of hours of good wihd. Good picture though.

There was an sailor named Andre who came down for a couple of years for Juana's. He sailed on Dillion Reservoir, CO.

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Philip
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Yes, stock sails and mast. Sailed the boat for 12 years. The first year we had it, it was great in light air, anything below 10. Hard to control in anything above that. Talked with guys all over the country, dealers and hot shot sailors, and averaged them to come up with those numbers. Thightend the diamonds and raked the spreaders and was great in 10 to 15 but suffered in the light stuff.

Lost my book with the light air settings.


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Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
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Ron,
I got a little different impression about my boat. I feel she definitely likes 10+kts and going solo in 20+ is not a problem. I sail her solo mostly. Can handle at least 12kts with jib, then I furl it, cause she easily flies hull with main only. I believe the boomless rig should benefit from prebend a lot, because it's going to help bending the mast with less effort. Do you remember your settings for clew traveler? Did you move it all the way in in high winds? Hint: it makes main sheet awfully tight and that's the only drawback with her. Other than that, she takes heavy weather very well.
Anyways, seems I can use Nacra F-18 Tuning Guide for starters. Just need a loose gauge to begin.

Philip, I do sail on Dillon about once a year... but on a keel boat, cause it is COLD and cats seems to be exterminated over there. But I believe I am not that Andre, although I'd love to come to Navarre Beach some day...

Upwind, clew in the middle as wind increases 3/4 forward.

The boat realy like a lot of sheet tension.

I am not a solo sailor, almost always have the same crew.

Yes, the early f18 numbers are very close except the mast rake.

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Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
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