I know the topic of mast rake / weather helm has been beat to death but I have a specific question, and nothing to compare it to. My previous dinghy was set up wrong and I didn't have the knowledge to know it or fix it.

Right now I'm not running a ton of rake (maybe 3-4 holes down from the top) and I have the rudders set up as the manual calls for (1/2 inch aft of the transom i think). when I'm sailing to weather there is hardly any load on the tiller until the wind gets above 10knts or so. So she will turn into the wind if I fall off. When I tack I can throw the tiller over and then "gracefully" switch sides and the ruder holds it course for a second or to while I switch hands. Same goes for if I need to go hand over to hand pull in the main I can let go of the tiller for a sec and maintain course.

Is this normal or should I be sailing with a bit more rake/weather helm or did I stumble into a really balanced set up?

--
Bob Miller
1983 P16 Sail # 7312
"Miller Time" A work in progress; out of the water for 16 years
Barnegat Bay NJ
Beach Cat Lesson #1 - A free cat isn't
Find more Prindles on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/173120656090532/
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I can just hope mine works as well as yours does once I get finished with it.

bobcatnj

when I'm sailing to weather there is hardly any load on the tiller until the wind gets above 10knts or so. So she will turn into the wind if I fall off. When I tack I can throw the tiller over and then "gracefully" switch sides and the ruder holds it course for a second or to while I switch hands. Same goes for if I need to go hand over to hand pull in the main I can let go of the tiller for a sec and maintain course.

Is this normal or should I be sailing with a bit more rake/weather helm or did I stumble into a really balanced set up?

What you describe sounds perfect to me. You should be able to let go of the tiller momentarily without the boat suddenly rounding up into the wind. But if you continue to leave it on it's own it should slowly turn into the wind as apposed to sailing on forever or (worse) falling off onto a reach.

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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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BobCatNJ

Is this normal or should I be sailing with a bit more rake/weather helm or did I stumble into a really balanced set up?

Strong work- and go buy a lottery ticket. Luck is strong with you.



Edited by klozhald on Jun 18, 2012 - 10:40 AM.

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Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

One of the things I love about owning a cat is the attention to detail when it comes to trimming the boat. Very small changes to sail, helm, etc, can make a difference that ban be appreciated on a lightweight cat, whereas similar tweaking, even if it makes a difference in the performance of a larger monohull is usually harder to perceive. As an old monohuller who eventually plans to circumnavigate in a big monohull, I figure that all of the knowledge gained with my cat will pay dividends in the future.

With that in mind, how does one typically measure rake? For the most part, I get very light winds on the lakes in N GA and SC. Do I want almost no rake? If so, how do I know what I have?



Edited by hyperope on Jun 18, 2012 - 12:04 PM.

--
Eric C

Force 5 project boat
Unnamed

Previous boat
1980 Nacra 5.2
"Double Vision"
--

Quote

Is this normal or should I be sailing with a bit more rake/weather helm or did I stumble into a really balanced set up?

sounds good to me, but you really want some weather helm as Damon mentioned... one extremely good reason for this is... if you fall overboard... .you don't want your boat sailing away.. with some w/helm it will slowly go into irons.. .(hopefully)



Edited by MN3 on Jun 18, 2012 - 12:14 PM.

Quote

With that in mind, how does one typically measure rake? For the most part, I get very light winds on the lakes in N GA and SC. Do I want almost no rake? If so, how do I know what I have?

In light winds you want your mast upright with lots of draft forward.

To measure you can either level the hulls, put a weight on the main halyard and measure distance from the mast...
OR
Adjust one of your trapeze lines so that the hook just touches the bridle attachment up front and then walk it to the back to see how far it stretches. Remember this as a reference point when you change your rake so see if you gain anything.

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Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

Quote

Adjust one of your trapeze lines so that the hook just touches the bridle attachment up front and then walk it to the back to see how far it stretches. Remember this as a reference point when you change your rake so see if you gain anything.

we do something like this to check our mast rake (it's NOT the same on all boats, as the "beam position can be different on different cats) ... but its just a good starting point

we use a line (or end of the trap dog bone) on the trap line (skipper), touch the bridal. if the mast is straight.. it should touch the rear beam (or close).

but this is just a ref point... so really.. .dropping down or going up one hole on your side stay... is gonna tell you what the results are more than the % of angle.

If you really want to know what adjusting does... go sailing for an hour (on a day with very steady wind) and come in.. and adjust it, then go back out and feel the difference.

Also, there are reactions (and possibly unintended ones) by making these adjustments... you change your CE (center of effort) and your rudders may (will) have some different helm (at some speed) more than likely.. but they may help

i personally found the balance on my cat and haven't changed it since. I used to rake back in heavy air.. now i jusrt take out fat friends instead :)

bobcatnj

I know the topic of mast rake / weather helm has been beat to death but I have a specific question, and nothing to compare it to. My previous dinghy was set up wrong and I didn't have the knowledge to know it or fix it.

Right now I'm not running a ton of rake (maybe 3-4 holes down from the top) and I have the rudders set up as the manual calls for (1/2 inch aft of the transom i think). when I'm sailing to weather there is hardly any load on the tiller until the wind gets above 10knts or so. So she will turn into the wind if I fall off. When I tack I can throw the tiller over and then "gracefully" switch sides and the ruder holds it course for a second or to while I switch hands. Same goes for if I need to go hand over to hand pull in the main I can let go of the tiller for a sec and maintain course.

Is this normal or should I be sailing with a bit more rake/weather helm or did I stumble into a really balanced set up?

It's weird but all the prindles I sailed with and we own are extremely neutral on the helm. Could it be the rudders? The 16 we have behaves completely the same with and without the jib actually.

--
Stefan, Denmark.
H14,H16,P16,P18,SC17,N5.8
Team StaySail
http://www.staysail.eu
--

Hi dichtbijzee,
I agree.
The Prindle 15, 16 and original 18 all had really big rudders, and it is actually kinda hard to set lee helm, happily.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

I'm going to bump an old thread....

I rigged up last night for the first time in 2 years and was trying to remember how I set up the rig. I did leave the pins in the shroud adjusters (4th hole from the top) and for the life of me I can't remember why or where I read to use that as the starting point. Most of the posts I've read had the 18's and with a tighter rig than the 16. Guys running a lot of rake have it tighter as well.

My setup is per the manual except ( rake 6-10 inches measured from the black line on the mast, rudders set to the manual - just aft of the transom) I can't remember where I got the idea to set it to the 4th hole, anyone else running that loose? or am I running a dangerously lose rig.

--
Bob Miller
1983 P16 Sail # 7312
"Miller Time" A work in progress; out of the water for 16 years
Barnegat Bay NJ
Beach Cat Lesson #1 - A free cat isn't
Find more Prindles on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/173120656090532/
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You did find an oldy..

To answer your last question, the only way I would think the rig would be "dangerously loose" is if it is so loose that you are in danger of losing it. In other words so loose that the mast could pop off the ball.

I'll let the P16 guys comment on how tight the rig should be.

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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bobcatnj

My setup is per the manual except ( rake 6-10 inches measured from the black line on the mast, rudders set to the manual - just aft of the transom) I can't remember where I got the idea to set it to the 4th hole, anyone else running that loose? or am I running a dangerously lose rig.

Hey Bob,
Here's a place to start:
Take the turnbuckle on the forestay apart, and before you drink a beer (this is that important!), rethread the the ends in so that 12 sets of threads are inside the turnbuckle. Now lock down the nuts, raise the mast and set the two sidestays equally, using someone else to hang on the trapeze on the side you are adjusting to get the tightness you want. I know it sounds low tech, but it works. Never have less than 11 threads in your turnbuckles. Now about that beer...

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

I have a prindle 18. I set the stays as tight as I can get them. I pull as hard as I can on a trapeze line, and my wife set the sidestay in the lowest hole possible. Pete

--
New Prindle 18-2 Owner
Former Prindle 18 Owner
Multiple Hobie 16s
Boylston Massachusetts
Webster Lake Indian Lake Narragnsett Bay in Rhode Island
--

So a turnbuckle on the forestay?

--
1975 P16 "Spring Rain"Sail # 642
Home Built 2004 Optimist-Delta "Unity"
So old it has Dino hide for a sail Chrysler "Pirateer"
Steve
Oyama BC
Lat 50.1167 N
Long 119.3667 W
1700 ft
--

The barrel adjuster thingy that threads the forestay to the bridle.

--
Bob Miller
1983 P16 Sail # 7312
"Miller Time" A work in progress; out of the water for 16 years
Barnegat Bay NJ
Beach Cat Lesson #1 - A free cat isn't
Find more Prindles on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/173120656090532/
--

kernunnos

So a turnbuckle on the forestay?

You're 1975 Prindle 16 has a different style forestay arrangement.
It resembles an early Hobie 16 setup.
No worries- still good.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

bobcatnj

I can't remember where I got the idea to set it to the 4th hole, anyone else running that loose?

Hi Bob,
The reason we can't tell you about the specific hole to be used is that all shrouds vary a little, and they stretch over time. I replaced mine two years ago and the new ones came a "hole" longer on the adjuster than the old ones. It's no biggie, just get it tight while you are on shore, and you will notice the leeward shroud go slack while you are sailing anyway.



Edited by klozhald on May 14, 2014 - 02:29 PM.

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Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

Like Klozhald says, they will go slack under sail. I don't think you can get them too tight, unless you have adjustable stays that use some sort of mechanics to set tightness. I was eyeballing my diamond wires this weekend and was shocked at how much slack will get into those as well when there is a a bit of wind in the sails. Ya, them masts, they bend :)

--
New Prindle 18-2 Owner
Former Prindle 18 Owner
Multiple Hobie 16s
Boylston Massachusetts
Webster Lake Indian Lake Narragnsett Bay in Rhode Island
--

Quote

The barrel adjuster thingy that threads the forestay to the bridle

I was asking if the P16 should have one... thanks man

--
1975 P16 "Spring Rain"Sail # 642
Home Built 2004 Optimist-Delta "Unity"
So old it has Dino hide for a sail Chrysler "Pirateer"
Steve
Oyama BC
Lat 50.1167 N
Long 119.3667 W
1700 ft
--