I have recently retired and need a hobby that will get me out of the house. I used to sail and crew, mostly Flying Scots & Lightnings in the 1960's (and wished they were Flying Dutchmen.) There were not many catamarans around then, although I did sail a cat several times in Sydney, Australia in the late 1970's. I thought I might try sailing again here in southern California.

With some variation, you have seen this question dozens (perhaps 100’s) of time before. Nevertheless, here it is: I am looking for a Big, Fast Daysailer & Racer that meets three (3) conditions. The boat will be used on the coastal and inland waters of southern California, between Long Beach and San Diego, and will have to be trailed some.

1. Big - The boat must be big enough and buoyant enough to carry 3 or 4 adults in good weather conditions.
2. Fast * - I hope to race it with a crew of 1 or 2 (not all 3 or 4)
3. Last but not least - The boat must sail reasonably well single-handed - when NOT racing or carrying the family.

I have read many of the post on this site and am thinking a 17' - 20' cat is probably the size range. But, there are many boats in that range with wide variations in performance and single-handed friendliness. As noted above, a two man crew for racing (sloop rig) is OK - as long as there is not too much clutter and it sails well single-handed.

What do you suggestions?

Thanks,
Richard

* Do you remember the Flying Dutchman class? They are old now but still fast for a 19' dinghy. As a former jet fighter pilot, I really like Fast. I can, however, wait a season or two to "trade up."

with a cheap beachcat you can have any 2 of your 3

with a $25,000? f24 trimaran you can have all 3



Edited by erice on Jul 12, 2012 - 06:33 PM.

Except it's not fast! My neighbor is selling his F-24 after a couple of rides on a Tornado here in Big Bear Lake, Ca. You would have to get the 25C to have a reasonably fast boat. Pete

Depends on what class you want to race and what you are looking for in racing. No cat is going to be able to do all those things.

If it is primarily for racing and cruising with several people a hobie 18 might serve yoru purposes. It's a little big to single hand but it can be done. Other boats to consider would be a Nacra 5.8 or a Prindle 18.

If you are primarily going to be sailing single handed then you want to try and get a boardless/boomless rig like a Nacra 5.7. A Nacra 5.2 or 5.5 would probably also work.

I would probably stay away from most modern speed rigs like the F18s or F17s. The F18s really need 2 experienced sailors on them, don't handle excess weight and basically can't be single handed (without balls of steel). The F17s are great single handed but not much else.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Thank you for the comments so far.

As for my 3 conditions, they are probably in reverse order of priority. Single-handed cruising will consume most of the boat's time. Local sail club racing will be next and family cruising will happen only occasionally. I have no aspirations for highly competitive racing at this point in time.

With 4 of us aboard, the "crew" weight would exceed 600lbs. 3 of us would be about 500 lbs. How much weight will a 17' - 20' cat carry? (It does NOT have to go fast with such a load. That is needed only when racing with an appropriate crew of 1 or 2.) However, if it does not sail reasonably well single-handed then it is not the right boat.

Richard

G-Cat 5.7. Roomy. Dry. Fast enough, but not a racer. Handles well solo.

--
Hobie 16
Hobie 18
G-Cat 5.7
--

Hobie 18 would carry your 600#'s; plenty of local fleet races; and easy to single hand in MDR, Dana Point, Mission Bay, San Diego. Pete

you could have the wings

in, for friends and family

out, for racing

It sounds like the best, and only solution, in my opinion is to get 2 boats. I can not think of any one boat that will do all that you are asking.

mystere 6.0

1. can handle 3 adults, 4 adults with wings (and wind)
2. Mike (catman) wins plenty of races on his 6.0 , even beating out the I20 (corrected)
3. i sail my mystere 5.5. solo most of the time, the 6.0 is only 1.5' longer, and 1' taller (mast), and i see them solo'd all the time

RSabast

G-Cat 5.7. Roomy. Dry. Fast enough, but not a racer. Handles well solo.

we have 72 year old Hans (designer of the g-cat) win races all the time here in the non-spin class (on 5.0's and 5.7's) and Rey J, win frequently here on a 5.7 w/spin (both using Portsmith / corrected)

See the low Portsmith race - Glen is a pretty big boy and won on a stock / old gcat with old sails and Hans came in second - http://timlah.files.wordp…angover-2012-results.pdf



Edited by MN3 on Jul 13, 2012 - 08:35 AM.

check out either a Reynolds 21, or a Stiletto 23, just do a google search

--
TurboHobo
H14T
H16
P18
G-Cat 5.0
P16
--

I would suggest a hobie 18, also. I've seen a group of 4 people sailing one in Dana Point and they were skipping along pretty well, it had wing seats on it which everyone was sitting on. I would recommend buying one with wings to keep the trampoline less cluttered with crew and lines. Also you see a ton of H18's around in southern CA so being able to race with clubs should be easy.

Here is a link to another topic on this site comparing the P18, H18, and other similar boats:
http://www.thebeachcats.com/forums/viewtopic/topic/1969

I'm always browsing LA, OC, and SD craigslists for boats so if I see something that fits your needs I'll link it to this topic.

I've read a lot about the Mystere's, they also sound like a good fit, unfortunately I don't think I've ever seen one in socal, so if you set your sights on a mystere 6.0 I hope you have good luck finding one for sale.



Edited by philzy on Jul 13, 2012 - 07:48 AM.

--
Redondo Beach, CA
'80 Prindle 16.
(Got it for free!)
--

Quote

I've read a lot about the Mystere's, they also sound like a good fit, unfortunately I don't think I've ever seen one in socal, so if you set your sights on a mystere 6.0 I hope you have good luck finding one for sale.

I know there were some over on the west coast, but not sure how many.

There are lots still around though...

Recent pics from École de voile Sansoucy's Facebook page:

Nacra 20.....

and an A Cat!


--
Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
--

Thank you for all your suggestions!

Quote

If you are primarily going to be sailing single handed then you want to try and get a boardless/boomless rig like a Nacra 5.7. A Nacra 5.2 or 5.5 would probably also work.

Wolfman;

Why do you suggest a "boardless" cat? Is that just for the ease of beaching it, or is there another reason? (I am new to catamarans.) From reading other posts, it sounds like boardless boats do not point as well in a tack and are a little slower.

Richard



Edited by rlltrash on Jul 13, 2012 - 11:45 AM.

Don't know, but at a guess I'd say it's because there's one fewer thing to have to fiddle with.

I used to solo a Prindle 16. No biggie, even with a jib. I tended to set the jib and sail to it, keeping the tiller and main in hand with the jib sheet just kinda looped there in my fist in case I had to dump in a hurry.

But you always take a hit somewhere. Want to adjust the traveler? Something's gotta give. (And yeah, I'm one of those guys who tweaks the traveler more than the main sheet.) Add in barberhaulers, that's one more thing to keep track of. Boards? One more. Eventually you wind up with a boat where you have to scuttle around tweaking things constantly. Soloing gets to be a chore instead of being fun.

For soloing, it's nice if you can lose a couple of things. Boards are an easy one because asymmetric hulls have been around for decades and work fine. A self-tacking jib would be terrific, in my book, but most rigs are expensive and tend to be reserved for high-end racers like the F18. (This is not universally true, though.)

Years ago I sailed on a friend's NACRA uni of some sort (sorry, don't remember the size of the hull). It was boomless as well. That thing was dead nuts simple to solo. I wound up flying a hull all over the lake without ever feeling like I was two arms short of being prepared to dump wind in a gust. It was the epitome of what solo sailing should've been: fun.

For the sheer pleasure of soloing, I'd go boomless and boardless, too. But I'd prefer a self-tacking jib to a uni rig, if such a beast exists. I'm just used to a sloop rigged boat when it comes to tacking. I never did get the hang of tacking that guy's uni.

When looking at a boat for racing, keep in mind what kind of racing you'll wind up doing. If you're doing fleet racing, you'll race against other people with similar boats. Things like symmetric vs. asymmetric hulls goes out the window because everyone will be racing the same hull. If you're doing handicap racing, that should be taken into account with your handicap number. Any speed hit you might take by using a slightly slower hull will be addressed with a more favorable handicap. And if you're just planning to just cruise around blowing the registration numbers off of slower boats, the slight performance dip you might get from something like asymmetric hulls will be more than made up for by the reduction in crew weight, sailing it solo.

It's easy to get wrapped 'round the axle, looking at things that make boats go faster. Bottom line is that catamarans are faster than a comparable monohull, regardless of the design details. To someone sitting in a Laser, a Hobie 18 and an F18 are both blisteringly fast. It isn't until the two are sailing side-by-side that the difference in performance becomes really apparent.

If racing is a key component of what you want to do with your boat, a more important question than the ultimate speed of the boat is what kind of racing community you have around you. If everyone sails Hobies and the only races are fleet races, buying something faster from another manufacturer means you can't race. If there's a big fleet of mixed boats that does handicap races, that's another question entirely. (And if the only racing community near you is monohulls and big keel boats, you're stuck like me!)

I like your idea of maybe trading up in a couple of years. Get something that'll get you on the water and get you close to what you think you'd like to have, sail it for a few years, and then you'll have a much better idea of what you really need.

Sorry I couldn't give you better advice.

Tom

--
Tom Benedict
Island of Hawaii
P-Cat 18 / Sail# 361 / HA 7633 H / "Smilodon"
--

Boomless and boardless just cuts down the workload while you are soloing with a jib. Getting the boards up while coming in for beaching is sometimes a trick, just because you pretty much have to let go of the tiller to do it. Boarded boats do point better and can be a little faster depending on the design, but it really isn't that big a difference.

In my opinion managing workload on a cat is extremely important. The big tramp means that you can and should move around quite a bit to balance the boat. You will also find that when tacking and jibing that 8 ft beam is a long ways to go on your knees when trying to manage the tiller, mainsheet, traveler and jib sheet. So not having a boom to bash you or boards to worry about is a help.

Finally the daggerboard wells make fitting 3 or 4 people on the boat more difficult. You have to remember that you have to fit everyone basically on the windward hull. Putting someone on the lee unless they are a kid doesn't work so well. Losing 2-3 ft of that hull to a daggerboard makes it very cozy even on an 18 ft boat.

All that being said, having them isn't the end of the world. You just have to learn the boat and how to manage it all. I do it all the time on my Nacra 5.2. Just wish that people would stop sitting on my jib sheet.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Tom and Dave;

Thank you for the information on booms and daggerboards. I can see your point, especially after seeing some pictures of catamarans with their daggerboards up. They are really in the way. It is not that bad with a single daggerboard dinghy.

Looking though the "SailboatData.com" website, it looks like there are NOT a lot of boardless catamarans in the 17’ – 20’ range. How about centerboard cats? There are a few of them. Is a centerboard any better?

Now, let’s try to bring this all together:
* Most importantly, I need a boat that can be satisfactorily sailed (not raced) single-handed – boardless & boomless if possible.
* Secondly, it needs to be big enough to carry at least 2 of us (backing off from the 3-4 adults I would like to carry.)
* As for Fast, I can wait and trade-up to that in a year or two. All of the boats we are talking about are faster than most monohull dinghies (except for A Scows, 49ers, etc.)

While good solo boats, the 16’ - 17’ cats sound like they will not easily carry 2 + people, especially if I ever want to go outside the breakwater into the Pacific. Of the larger boats, the N 5.5SL is said to be good single-handed. The Dart 18, G-Cat 5.7, NACRA 5.7, and Prindle 18 are boardless, I think. The Prindle 18-2 and Prindle 19 apparently have centerboards. The rest, I believe, all have double daggerboards. I can’t find much about A-class cats or Mystere’s.

So, the question now is: which of these are the best single-handed sailers? (Are there any that I missed?) Of course, Hobie Cats and Prindles are the most available at reasonable prices.

Thanks,
Richard

I can see going boomless, but I don't think the reasons for going boardless make a lot of sense. You put the boards down after you leave the beach, and you leave them down. They aren't any extra work while sailing and if they are flush with the deck when down, they aren't in the way when you have a bunch of people on board.

The real problem I see with his requirements is that he wants something that can haul a lot of people (Caravan,) and something that is fun for one person to race (Miata,) all in the same vehicle.

Here's how I solved the problem... I got a membership at the local sailing center ($400 per year for unlimited use of Hobie Waves and Getaways,) for when I want to satisfy item (1) on his list, and I bought myself a 1/2 person racer (F-16) to satisfy items (2) and (3.)

Something to think about.

--
Daniel T.
Taipan F16 - USA 213
Clearwater, FL
--

usually the most important rule for buying a USED beachcat is

the best condition, affordable boat that is close

you say hobies and prindles are common where you are

then take some cash and go and look at a hobie18 with wings and a prindle18

if you get a good condition boat at the right price and after it a season it doesn't work out, you will be able to sell it at only minimal loss and buy something else

there are just too many variables, like your skillset and the amount of effort you are prepared to put in to answer the "best boat for me" question now

while both the hobie and prindle18 appear to best suit your stated purposes so far, i think you will find them too big most of the time

a nacra5.0 and a copy of "catamaran racing for the 90's" would be a much better start imho
　



Edited by erice on Jul 14, 2012 - 06:18 PM.

Quote

a nacra5.0 and a copy of "catamaran racing for the 90's" would be a much better start imho

Thanks for the suggestion. I bought the book, "catamaran racing for the 90's" but I am not sure about the NACRA 5.0. When the time comes I will see what is available.

Thanks,
Richard

like a motorbike, most people eventually get their beachcat lying on it's side

how much do you weigh? at 175lbs? i'm not heavy enough to solo right my 17' nacra

so heavier would be better for a bigger boat, but not so heavy you can't do a few chin-ups or the climb back on the boat may be too much......righting systems like water bags or righting poles can help here but that's extra cost and mucking around that 90% of beachcat sailors don't do



Edited by erice on Jul 15, 2012 - 01:35 AM.

I was out soloing my Nacra Inter-18 yesterday. I have video, I'll try to get posted. The issue with single handing a big boat is if you dump. I have a 50/50 chance right now based on this years statistics, I need a gust to get the mast moving. The last time I bone-headed dump'd in light winds I needed a wind surfer to give me a mast flip. Yes, I need a righting bag.

here is a still from the video ...


The other thing is you need to be reasonably quick on a big touchie boat. Getting on the wire fast, tacking fast. My boat is as touchie as they come, but even a H16 will go over if you are sleeping at the helm with the the main cleated after a tack in 15 kts. A H16 is simple to solo, but you can't take all that weight. A H18 is great and you can bring 20 friends, but you need 20+ kts of wind to make it move.

Are you sailing off a catamaran beach? Get down there and meet the locals, find out what boats they have, partner up with someone, share swap trade. Different crew/wind conditions need different boats. Borrow your buddy's H18 when the family arrives and go soloing on your H16/Nacra 5.2/F-17 whatever.



Edited by nhanson on Jul 15, 2012 - 03:40 PM.

--
nacra inter-18
CNBP
--

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/ant/boa/3143045174.html

That's a H16 for $500. Looks very nice from the photo and you can solo it and race it, so satisfies 2/3 requirements.

Here's your H18, looks like it needs a good cleaning but hell it's $850.

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/ant/boa/3142403421.html

Both very inexpensive, and I think both are worth taking a look at (The H18 especiall)

Hope you see this in time !

--
Redondo Beach, CA
'80 Prindle 16.
(Got it for free!)
--

Find the righting weight of the boat you want to buy, you need to be close to it or you are or will be screwed. It will end up on its side and then on the shore somewhere with or without you on it. I have a Hobie 18 and I can not right it by myself and I am over 250, I need help. My 5.5 Nacra can take two people and I can right is solo (or should be able too, have not dumped it yet).

A hobie 17 is a great boat for solo but not for two unless the total weight is under 250, the boat is just not made for any weight. I have a buddy with a Inter (nacra) 17 with spinnaker and it does double duty, he sails it 95 percent alone but when someone wants a ride he can take them. The kite does not have to be rigged or flown but it is a blast once you get use to the other aspects of the boat. His 17 is why I have my 5.5, they are similar in race trim.

I have righted a Hobie 16 solo and it will be by far the most available, our local club have been given 3 of them for our teen program so they are out there and usually not a lot of money. HTH, Richard.

--
Lake Perry KS
H-18
N-5.5 UNI +spin
--