i am looking for rudders for my cat to have a second pair, do any of you know where i can look for this at? if you have any links? My boat wants to dive down away from the wind when things get moving fast...that is LEE helm...and the fastest way to fix lee helm is to rake the mast BACK right? Moving a notch or two. and leave the rudders right as they are.. ....Moving the tip of the mast back moves the entire center of effort of the whole sail plan back and thus tends to drive the stern away from the wind and the bow of the boat up into the wind, which should then make the boat want to round up in puffs instead of diving. So what do you guys think of this?

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

Sounds right, although not related to new rudders?

The helm is completely tied to the COE vs CO...something else...sigh. It's like you said above, coe back and stern moves with wind, coe forward and bows move. The rake of the rudders just determines how hard they are to move, or how twitchy they are. Rudders back can feel like weather helm, though.

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

i would try the mast first
i would look at your rudders (and boards if you have any) and see if they have wear on them that could be effecting helm

soulofasailor

Moving a notch or two. and leave the rudders right as they are

This sounds like a good plan.
Does your R21 have the ability in the forestay and side stays to adjust mast rake?
It has been decades since I sailed one but I seem to remember the ability to...

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

yes it is the Forestay , mine was to tight i lessened it like a loose tooth and went out sailing for a moment to see if it changed! It did now the boat was rounding up! so now i have to find the happy meduim. I do have 2 stays on each side towards stern. it seems my other stays are all the way down so i have to re look at this again.

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

Slight rounding up is a good thing. You don't want it to wear you out over a day of sailing but a little weather helm is reassuring.

--
Rob V.
Panama City, FL
--

I use to have serious weather helm on my P-18 and then I trued the rudders with a straight edge like it talks about in the manual. The next time I took it out it was totally different. The difference was amazing. I didnt think that rudders being out of alignment that slight was a a big deal. I guess you learn something everyday.

--
Is a bad day sailing better than a good days work?
--

Hey traneguy do you have that manual maybe u could take a pic of it so I can see if anything on,my boat is similar. I still had helm Issues , I dont know how im gonna fix this for next year. So any help is cool with me..



Edited by soulofasailor on Dec 01, 2012 - 03:27 PM.

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

soulofasailor

Hey traneguy do you have that manual

The manual he is talking about is the Prindle assembly manual. It says to put a meter stick along the transom and make the forward tip of the rudder close to the forward edge of the meter stick- like within 1/2". Don't hold me to the details, the manual is avail in the tech section:

This is the specific page:

http://www.thebeachcats.c…ictures/?g2_itemId=75862

This technique is probably not applicable to your Reynolds.



Edited by klozhald on Dec 04, 2012 - 02:41 PM.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

on our Iroquois mkII 30' cat the rudders are adjustable. too far foreward and we have lee helm. too far aft and we have weather helm.
marc

More things than mast rake involved. Mast rake will load the rudders, without dagger boards that will make a difference.
Toe in or out makes a difference. Not familiar with the boat you have too much but with board slight toe in front to rear is common. Neutral is also common.

Last and most likely the largest factor for lee or weather helm is rudder rake. Moving the rudders further under the boat makes more lee helm, pulling the bottom of the rudder aft gives more lee helm.

If you can adjust the rudders to be not raked under as much it should help. HTH, Ricardo.

--
Lake Perry KS
H-18
N-5.5 UNI +spin
--

The rudder design on the Reynolds was always a weakness. The blades are too thick, and cavitate easily when loaded up. And they have no provisions for raking them fore and aft to regulate helm effort. When sailing in 15 kts plus with a modest weather helm, the rudders would suddenly cavitate, and violent lee helm would set in. Long term, you're gonna want to find boards with a better profile(SC20/22 blades?) and adapt them to your castings. You won't find any beachcat rudder assemblies that will fit your taller transoms.

Another thought, pay attention to your rudder hold down lines/cleats. With greater boatspeed, the pressure on the rudders tends to pivot them aft, which affects both helm and tiller load.

Dave

What if I sand the shit our of them make them thinner in width. Is this what u are saying? I do notice. When rudders pop up I have no stearing. And when the boat goes faster it get stronger to stear.

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

Quote

What if I sand the **** our of them make them thinner in width.

unless you understand how/where your modifications are going to affect the hydro-dynamics, drag and friction, i wouldn't touch them.

I have seen very sailors completely ruin rudders by trying to modify their profile / characteristics, when they didn't really know what they were doing

Well i have no idea what i am doing but if they are to thick then why cant i thin them down? And i have no idea what you just said! hahhha :) explain to me how will i figure this out? do i need a big aquarium with water movement as the blades are looked at?

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

what about the type of wood to use for making a set of rudders? Have any of you tried this, i was going to trace my originals ok a piece of cardboard and then cut it out. So i am thinking to make them thinner then the original ones? What do you guys think of this?

Winter project :)

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

I wonder if i could buy a small sheet of Fiberglass all ready to go, Does anyone know of such a thing?

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

Quote

Well i have no idea what i am doing but if they are to thick then why cant i thin them down?

the answer is in your own statement... you just have to reverse it...
Q: why cant i thin them down?
A: Well i have no idea what i am doing ..... :)

Quote

And i have no idea what you just said! hahhha :)

if you try to modify your own rudders and you are not an experienced marine fabricator, and hydro-dynamist (made-up word).... you are more likely to end up with worse rudder problems than you have now.

Rudders have lots of curve, shape, edging etc.
If you start to shave-off / modify the shape of the current rudders, and don't recreate the correct shape (or develop a new shape that works better...) you will be worse off and now need to find/purchase new rudders to replace

I sail 140+ days a year and hit bottom enough to require touch up work on my rudders and center-boards. I have been working on my rudders (tips) a lot this year (3 different times) by adding gelcoat putty to extend the length back to original size and shape. The amount of time, energy, and skills needed (to fair) are much higher than i expected.

It took me many applications of gelcoat, and sanding back down with multiple levels of sandpaper.... just to develop a semi decent grasp on how to properly fair the rudder edges into ALMOST the right shape, angle, edge, etc. and this was only after i had 2 friends (who were both in the fabricating industry) sit with me for an hour + and show me some technique. It is not impossible, but it is a skill for sure.

Quote

explain to me how will i figure this out? do i need a big aquarium with water movement as the blades are looked at?

Yes, don't forget to get a degree in hydro-dynamics, or find out how others succesfully overcame your helm issues (there has to be others who experienced this).

personally, I would mess with my mast rake, and every other possible adjustment before i touched any part of my boat with sandpaper or drill

Quote

what about the type of wood to use for making a set of rudders?

some great data in here
http://www.boatdesign.net…wooden-rudder-35976.html

Quote

What do you guys think of this?

If you are good with wood... sounds great



Edited by MN3 on Dec 10, 2012 - 08:41 AM.

Well my plan is to not modify the originals, just copy them maybe just make them thinner the first try, and use wood, maybe hardwood first. get a feel for the designing of it. the Oval shape is all i see and issue in trying to copy that! (the profile)

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

Here is what my rudder looks like!

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

im neither a rocket scientist or a hydrodynamics engineer and can only base my suggestion on my education at hobie 101 thru 440 check the rudders angle and attitude. I had too much weather helm and a 1/4 inch adjustment on tiller made me a beliver in "there is a right way to do everying".

well mine will not go anymore in towards stern, once i have time i might see if i can make new ones if not i will just deal with it.

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

Have you tried contacting Reynolds? They may have some ideas.

http://xscats.com/contact-us/

yes this is what i am told from Randy..

The reason is because of the raked angle of the transoms. You have to figure out a way to make your blades be at a 90-degreee angle - straight up and down. Randy suggested making a wedge piece that you could afix to the transom, that the rudders would attach to. The other thing you could do is straighten out the transoms, if you're handy with fiberglass.

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

Easy enuff - re drill the pivot hole. Set the boat on the trailer and get it so the water line is level Drop the boards and see where they are in relation to the hull. A level will get you to perpendicular. If you can not get to perpendicular remove the bolt holding the rudder Keep the lower part of the blade against the casting and move the top until perpendicular is achieved. Mark the blade thru bolt hole in the casting with a sharpie and drill. Go sailing to check progress If it works for you then fill old hole with epoxy and your done.

--
Lee - On the BIG Lake in MS

Harstil Kaulua 31 - Current Project Boat
Cal 25 - What ? Time to freshen it up again??
MC Scow 16 (1 in the water and 1 parts/project) SOLD
Capri 22 - What do you mean you wont deliver it??
Chrysler Pirateer 13 - new addition to the fleet
--

Why isnt there a place online to buy blades (rudders), i cant find any places to even look at them. I cant believe there has to be a market for this.

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

http://www.dotan.com/

--
Tornado (80's Reg White)
Prindle 18-2 (sold)
Dart 16 (hired and hooked)
13 mtr steel cutter (sold)
Etap 22, unsinkable sailing pocket cruiser.

Amsterdam, the Netherlands
--

soulofasailor

Why isnt there a place online to buy blades (rudders), i cant find any places to even look at them. I cant believe there has to be a market for this.

soulofasailor

Why isnt there a place online to buy blades (rudders), i cant find any places to even look at them. I cant believe there has to be a market for this.

Is there just one pivot point on the rudder, it is hard to tell without seeing the whole rudder casting, the rudder almost looks like a Prindle rudder. Can you post a picture of the casting and how it attaches to the transom showing the gugdens

try a block under the top gudegon to move it away from the transom therefore moving the rudder blade foreward .

I wonder if Dotan.com can make me a set of rudders? here is what mine look like!



--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

Hey guys, is it just me bad eyes or does it seem to you that rudder is on backwards? the thick edge of the rudder is supposed to be the leading edge and the thin edge is the trailing edge, in those pics it looks the other way around, might just be a bad angle ....

soulsailor?

well i only had the boat since Nov.2011 so i put it back the way it was in summer , and the rudders do kick up if i hit something so if it is then backwards then the guy i bought it from had them backwards too!

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

I think its a poor desgin rudder from 1980 ! i would like to make some but i never did before i was going to trace these ones, then make it a little thinner! I have no idea what i am gonna do right now its cold here and i cant function! :) I wish i had a huge garage to work in i wanted to have the boat all put together and back it into a nice warm garage! But that is just a Dream.

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

Do a quick check and see if the leading edge is thicker than the trailing edge, could be that is your whole problem, the rudders work just like the wing on an airplane, thick edge points in the direction of motion.

Oh OK that makes total SENSE! I will do that well i have a picture up top with measurements... hmmm im gonna look

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

looking at damienb's pic of rudders above, the cat would be moving to the left

i don't know if i understand those numbers and this rudder is leaning to further stern it seems, i need it to go toward the front under boat i think a little?

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

the-renovator

Hey guys, is it just me bad eyes or does it seem to you that rudder is on backwards? the thick edge of the rudder is supposed to be the leading edge and the thin edge is the trailing edge, in those pics it looks the other way around, might just be a bad angle ....

Is a lock down mechanism not interglacial in the upper portion of the leading edge? Is so it would be awful hard to put them on backwards. Also looking at the pic linked below they look to be the same.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/…5o/s1600/Reynolds006.JPG



Edited by Rider_55 on Jan 16, 2013 - 12:04 PM.

Don't look at the numbers, just picked the diagram to show the elliptical shape of the rudder to show the thicker edge pointing in the direction of motion. Is your Reynolds close at hand? if so, brave the cold and check to see how the rudders are mounted. The other thing I wanted to ask you, how do your rudders lock down?

good pic Rider, shows the Reynolds rudder quite clearly, quite thick front to back and shows the pivmatic type lock-down system. SoulSailor, it seems it's me poor eyesight that faulty, not your rudders, so have a look at robpatt's suggestion on your rudders above



or you can use marcs2 suggestion of mounting a spacer under the top gudgeon. You are quite correct in your reasoning that the rudders need to move more under the boat, the easier method would be marc2's suggestion to insert a spacer. When the weather warms up a tad.....



Edited by the-renovator on Jan 16, 2013 - 12:50 PM.

This is what i added to both rudders for keeping it down.

http://www.clamcleat.com/…ds/cleat_images/77_a.gif



Edited by soulofasailor on Jan 16, 2013 - 02:18 PM.

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

soulofasailor,
have you tried contacting the designer of your cat, randy reynolds?
he might have some suggestions.

http://xs35cat.com/r33/en/designers/index.asp

http://xs35cat.com/r33/en/team/index.asp

http://xs35cat.com/r33/en/owners/rs21.asp

Mailing address:
Reynolds Design
16033 Bolsa Chica Street, # 104 - 216,
Huntington Beach Ca 92649
Tel: (714)-377-7454 Fax: (714)-377-7485
Toll Free: 800-DO MULTI (366-8584)

Email the designer: RR714@R33.com
Email: info714@R33.com

Boat Assembly Shop address
15611 Product lane B-15
Huntington Beach Ca. 92649

--
Aquacat 12 (sold)...'87 Nacra 5.8 (sold)...'03 Nacra Inter18 (sold)
Venture 15 (sold)....'89 Nacra 5.8 (sold)...'91 Nacra 5.8NA (sold)
'99 Nacra Inter20 (sold)
--

This is what Rob is illustrating. This is a really simple solution and I have done it more often than you can imagine. If you don' like it just build it back up.


--
Philip
--

@Arch

i have tried emailing Randy, he has never returned any of my emails. so this is why i am here, i found a guy that is suppose to be close to RANDY he has a R21 in California he says Randy doesn't want to be bothered with his old designs! I find that SUCKY to say the least! I think the boat has potential just need some tweaks I emailed WINGZ i know they are no longer if i could just purchase some items that would solve some issues i have! I wish i had the Money the Room to rebuild this boat. With a little mods this could be a little rocket! Which it is already Plus with new sails coming to her who knows what she will be like?

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

[quote=soulofasailor]I wonder if Dotan.com can make me a set of rudders? here is what mine look like!

You can ask....

--
Tornado (80's Reg White)
Prindle 18-2 (sold)
Dart 16 (hired and hooked)
13 mtr steel cutter (sold)
Etap 22, unsinkable sailing pocket cruiser.

Amsterdam, the Netherlands
--

The other quick solution:-
1) take the rudders off
2) take the rudder castings off
3) unbolt the top gudgeon pins from each transom
4) insert SS spacer (1/4"?)
5) apply silicone

re-assemble, go sailing, quick & easy.

In his original post he indicated that he had a lee helm, spacing the top gudgeons will increase the lee helm.

the-renovator

The other quick solution:-
1) take the rudders off
2) take the rudder castings off
3) unbolt the top gudgeon pins from each transom
4) insert SS spacer (1/4"?)
5) apply silicone

re-assemble, go sailing, quick & easy.

Just so you all KNOW, i have contacted Dotan Maritime Industries Ltd we are talking now, i am gonna find out if they have something that will work for my boat and how much! I am sure it will be a ARM and a LEG!

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

You might try putting a spacer of some sort on the inside of the lower portion of the rudder casting to prevent the rudder from going to far forward. Maybe gluing or using 5200 to adhere a thick piece of rubber. If it did not help it would be easy to remove.

I think now that i have talked to all of you and heard all of your ideas and things, and i have noticed too that the rudders have no shape they are almost the same looking from front to back and sides i need a rudder more like a WING of a Airplane shape, and more forward i think, it needs to be more under the boat! I intend to keep this boat for a long while, and maybe add a Hobie cat to my Driveway later, so i had something to take quicker if i was going somewhere. so I am just looking around but i do like those 20 footers I like BIG cats! Something that i have less likely to FLIP! BUT FAST :)

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

Reading this thread makes me dizzy!

--
Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
--

Hey I found another one! http://www.thebeachcats.c…/p12488-reynolds-21.html

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

its near me i saw it on cl

Optikid. where are you exactly and how do you have those flags on your cat ? what type of pulley systems did you use your cleats or something ?

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

man that R21 is in bad shape, such a pity........

im in sarasota and it shows in the sarasota cl. the bottom of the flags are tied to a reefing point, then tied together, then to the end if a batten

http://sarasota.craigslist.org/boa/3542539910.html
i think he is using a video of your boat in his ad

Wow that guy on Craigslist used my video! hahahaa

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--

Check with Stiletto, maybe rudders from a 23 will work.

http://www.stilettocatamarans.com/

That is a good idea Jack108136 i didnt think of that

--
1980 Reynolds 21 Catamaran #38
1988 Farrier 27 # 31
2002 Hobie Getaway
Pennsylvania, PA.
--