Went to pick up a P16 advertised on CL, only it turned out to be a Prindle 15, so I picked it up anyway. I now have 2 options, renovate the P15, add a jib, and sell it as a complete boat, or part it out.

Hulls - solid
Rudders - very good
Castings - same
Mast - straight, has some gouges
Sail - excellent
Tiller Connector -
Hiking Stick -

Need some feed-back

p 15 is a fun single hander...doesn't like heavy weight- with or without jib... my buddy had one but ended up with a p 16, the 16 can carry so much more. but if your solo, it's cool!

--
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook!
bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
--

Sell it, unless you plan on sailing solo all the time. Or sell it, unless you weigh 150 lb or less. Disliked the P15, bought a P16, as Capt. Coastrat describes above, loved the P16. 2 cents.

--
Hank, Hattiesburg, Mississippi, P16 - "Sideways"
--

Thanks sailors, I don't plan to keep this P15, I have a P16, I just wanted to know if there is a market for a complete boat, if not, dump the hulls and part out rest of boat.

I have parted out a lot of boats in the past ten years, but I have never owned a P15--I don't think I could sleep at night if I parted one out! I really wanted one as a step-up form my Hobie 14, until I found a Supercat 15. End of story.

I finally saw one this summer and it is a pretty cool boat! They are not made for a lot of weight, but they look like really fun single handers. Prindles in general are great boats.

I think most people would like to see it sold to someone who would finish it and enjoy it.

The Round Texel race in Holland usually has around 400 entries (had 600 years ago) and they race the 52 miles on Texel rating handicap. Prindle 15 came in 2nd about 5 years ago. Pete

Would be a shame to part it out, there are not a lot parts that are desirable for other boats. I always thought it was a cool boat, but never owned one. Tried to buy one once but the owner preferred to let it sit unused. It would make a fine boat for a couple beginner kids.

--
Daniel Evans
N I20 Miami FL
N I20, N 6.0NA, H 20, H 16 Chesapeake bay
I have a hard time passing up a good deal on a big cat.
--

The P15 cleaned up really good, have an extra P16 forestay which I will cut down to fit the P15, plan to add a jib using the same ring and "S" hook setup, have both the Hobie beam mounted jib blocks as well as the Prindle tramp jib blocks, still undecided which way to go, am leaning towards the beam blocks with a small jib that sits forward of the mast just to keep the tramp clean, but there again, a larger jib will give me more sail area. The jib will have the hobie style hanks attaching it to the forestay instead of a zipper pocket, gonna make this P15 into a little rocket.......

The boat was designed to be a Cat Rig boat and will perform best if left alone. Do you see the A Cat sailors putting a jib on thier boats. If left as is the boat will scream to weather. I was looking for one a few years ago and I turned down 3 that I came across because they all were converted. Yes I could have reversed the process but they had drilled holes in the crossbars for jib blocks etc. and I wanted a true P15, one had even put a P16 mast on it. In my opinion if you want a P16 just find a P16. All you end up with is a P15 1/2

If I had an A Cat, I would put a jib on it, they look silly with just a single sail, all that design and technology, and only 1 sail...

more sail area = more speed......

OK, OK, slow down, everyone. You're missing the point on a few things.

First, A cats are dead sexy with just one sail. We can't add a jib because of the class rule about sail size. Randy Smythe tried to add a jib to his A cat and it didn't work out well. It was like 8 feet tall and about had about a 12" foot. He had to take some area out of the main to meet the rules, but he just couldn't get it to work, at least, yet. Randy is a sharp guy and will make it happen, I'm sure.

The A cats do extremely well both up wind and off. The masts are about 30 feet tall and with a very narrow sail, they are very fast. Adding a jib would change the geometry and it just wouldn't help. Being a single handed boat, it would be tough to adjust the jib properly from the wire. Just leave them alone!

OK, on the other hand, boats like the Prindle 15, Hobie 14 and Supercat 15 are all unis, but actually do pretty well with jibs. I'm using these three as examples because I have experience with them (not so much with a Prindle). The Hobie 14 uni is faster than a Turbo on a race course. The Turbo can't sail as close to the wind and jibes downwind. The uni is a pointing mf'er and sails almost dead down wind the fastest. The Turbo is REALLY fast on a reach. Adding the jib does give more power, but tends to make the boat even more nose-heavy.

The Supercats carve up wind like no other. I added a self-tacking jib to my 15 because a)it was a pretty cool thing to do and b)I single hand, so a self tacker makes it easier. Since it is a small, non overlapping jib, I do get performance both up wind and down, but I lose performance down wind in the light stuff due to the nature of the jib sail. If you have ever seen me race the thing, I have the leeward bow almost under water when going upwind. It looks funny, but I can out point a Hobie 16 easily. Hey, it aint bragging if it's true (Mohamad Ali said that..)

I could only compare the Prindle to the Supercat 15 and Hobie 14. Adding the jib would make it faster on a beam reach, but taking the portsmouth hit on an A-C course wouldn't be worth it. It adds another string to pull, too. If you are pleasure sailing, it would make it more fun.

Quote

We can't add a jib because of the class rule about sail size.

......and that, my friend, is why I dont race, too many rules and regulations.

But you do make some good points Dan, as a recreational sailor with a need for speed, I agree, throw a "hanky" jib on the front of a H14, P15 or SC15 and you increase performance, with both speed and tacking ability. But Elias also has a point, and I will not drill holes in the front cross-beam to mount the Hobie style jib blocks, I saw some pics of a G-Cat and will install pigtails using the anchor bar and tang method and go with the tramp style jib blocks.





That way, I stay with the Prindle design, but can remove the jib and blocks if needed, keeping it authentic and maintaining the integrity of the crossbeam.

Does anyone know if the P15 had a boom, and if it did were the dimensions the same as the boom on the P16 but just a little shorter, and if it was shorter does anyone know the length of the boom? Might have to source a P16 boom and cut it down.......

Rigged the P15 for the 1st time today, new shrouds arrived and were quickly attached. Have the boat on the trailer backwards and attached mast step link pin to mast base, man-handled the mast up pretty easily. Just waiting on new tramp, will have that installed soon, can then work on dimensions for the custom jib.





http://www.thebeachcats.c…ctures/?g2_itemId=100876

Yes the P-15 has a boom, it is listed as different from the P16 boom. More than likely just the location of the bale is different. Ask the forum for a P15 sailor to measure for you. I have a few extra P16 booms if you can not locate one close to you.

the-renovator

Does anyone know if the P15 had a boom, and if it did were the dimensions the same as the boom on the P16 but just a little shorter, and if it was shorter does anyone know the length of the boom? Might have to source a P16 boom and cut it down.......

I have used a P15 boom on a P16 and it worked well; I'm assuming the reverse would render similar results.

--
Hank, Hattiesburg, Mississippi, P16 - "Sideways"
--

Thanks HullFlyer, will contact you as soon as I figure out if the previous owner still has the original boom lying around at his lakefront cottage. Hank, would you happen to have the original measurements on the boom from your P15?

renovator

I'll try to remember to take measurements this weekend, but I recall the following:
I had the P15 first, didn't care for it, bought a P16. The boom that came with the P16 had a main sheet system that I'd never seen before. the main sheet connected to the boom in two seperate places. Because of this, the first time we took the P16 out, I brought both the P15 and the P16 boom. When I layed them down side-by-side, they were the same length, had the same tear-drop cross-sectional shape, looked alike in every way, except for that dang-ole weird (to me)main, so I simply put the P15 boom on the P16, along with the main sheet I'd been using on the P15 and everything worked as expected.

In summary, if the boom that came with the P16 was indeed "stock", and the boom that came with the P15 was also "stock", they are interchangable with "no worries man".

--
Hank, Hattiesburg, Mississippi, P16 - "Sideways"
--

Hank, thanks for the info, I measured the foot of my P16 sail -
7' 7.5"
then I measured the foot of my P15 sail -
7' 7"
so there is only 1/2" difference.

Have a P16 boom on order from HULLFLYER.

Strange about that main-sheet setup, both my P15 and my P16 have the same loose-foot sail setup, luff of sail is fixed to the mast in the sail track, insert tack of sail into track at opening and then crank on the downhaul. Fix clew of sail in out-haul car on the boom, crank on out-haul, attach 6:1 blocks to boom hanger and traveler car, go sail.

I will say this, I have a set of 6:1 Harken old-style blocks that are different to the low-profile blocks in that they have the 3 upper blocks separate, 1 double block, 1 single block, hanging off of 2 separate hangers on the boom, works, but weird.

excellent. http://www.thebeachcats.c…713&g2_imageViewsIndex=1

--
Hank, Hattiesburg, Mississippi, P16 - "Sideways"
--

the-renovator

Quote

We can't add a jib because of the class rule about sail size.

......and that, my friend, is why I dont race, too many rules and regulations.

Also, A-cats have lots of power to weight ratio compared to most beachcats. There is little need to add more sail area/horse power

165 lbs rigged.
I have taken an A-cat out in 15mph and it was full-on, powered up

Ronald

Waar woon jy?

Wow dude! asked you where you live, I apologize if that "exceeds the limits of your privacy"........

northseajunkie

By chance my eye fell on this forum triggered by the subject Prindle-15.

So, as a new member I would like to add my devotion to the P15 design. I owned several ones and I'm now sailing on a one-off homebuilt version of the P15.

Ronald,

Welcome to TheBeachcats.com, glad to have some insight into your favorite Prindle and always good to hear from The Netherlands. I like hearing about your area because catamaran sailing is treated like a popular sport instead of a fringe activity.

You have to be tough to sail all the time in the North Sea, yet there are a number of nice catamaran clubs on the beach there.

Don't worry about any translation mis-understandings, you English is much better than my Dutch.

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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Backasswards

The boom that came with the P16 had a main sheet system that I'd never seen before. the main sheet connected to the boom in two seperate places.

Hank,
I made the same mod to my P16 after sailing in the ocean in 15-20 kts. Adding a second boom bail allowed me to increase purchase on the mainsheet, and so be able to sheet the main with one hand in bigger wind. It did take some fiddling to get the lines to run smoothly through the blocks.

This past summer I did the same thing to my P18-2. With 8:1 there, I can now sheet with one hand, but I have to pull in eight feet to move the blocks a foot. Mostly this happens only when I come up to close hauled from a broad reach.



Edited by klozhald on Dec 13, 2012 - 11:49 AM.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

"Waar woon jy" translates to "where do you live", don't want your home address, we're not that intimate yet.......... ....... And it's Afrikaans not Dutch

Just wanted to know what part of the world you sail as we all know it takes a tough individual to sail the North Sea.

So stop being such a "Richard", and we'll all get along just fine

Quote

Adding a second boom bale......

Bob, when you say boom bale are you referring to what some call a "block hanger"? The old H16 had 2 block hangers on the boom, and I've seen old H18 with 3 block hangers, but I'm not sure how you would acquire "more purchase", can you explain please.

Boom bail, look on page 27 of the current Hobie parts and accessories book and it will explain how to convert a 6/1 to a 7/1 and a 7/1 to an 8/1

the-renovator

I'm not sure how you would acquire "more purchase", can you explain please.

My mainsheet rig had a triple block and one ratchet block on the traveler and a triple block with becket on the boom bail.
I added a matching single block on the new boom bail and re-routed the sheet to include it, increasing the purchase.



Edited by klozhald on Dec 13, 2012 - 11:45 AM.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

the-renovator

The old H16 had 2 block hangers on the boom, and I've seen old H18 with 3 block hangers

Yeah. Hobie only put a single block on each bail.
Possibly they had problems with the boom, rivets or bails, or maybe it was a lower cost solution.
It was definately cost for me- the bail was $7 and the block $20. New low profile blocks would have been over $500.
The modern cats have 10:1 blocks on a single bail without issues.



Edited by klozhald on Dec 13, 2012 - 12:18 PM.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

Please everyone remember that the forums at TheBeachcats.com are supposed to be a friendly place. Be especially careful when there might be language differences in play. A casual comment or "inside joke" sometimes translates quite a bit stronger than you intend.

In real life, tone of voice or a smile can filter what would be a rude comment, but in writing you just have the words.

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
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DamonLinkous

Please everyone remember that the forums at TheBeachcats.com are supposed to be a friendly place. Be especially careful when there might be language differences in play. A casual comment or "inside joke" sometimes translates quite a bit stronger than you intend.

In real life, tone of voice or a smile can filter what would be a rude comment, but in writing you just have the words.

I agree completely with this. I do not post very often, but find myself reading this forum weekly to gather sailing information and further my understanding of catamarans in general. It really is a friendly place that seems very inviting to all different levels of sailing experience. -- However, I see this common miss communication on many other forums I frequent as well...

I watched the video that "Ronald" posted yesterday (maybe the day before?), and came back today to find it again (all his posts are gone).... He seemed like a very dedicated and experienced sailor that more than likely could of brought a thing or two to this forum with his posts. His custom made cat was impressive (material/construction speaking - I have no basis on design) and seemed like the kind of rig that could help someone improve on their own ideas if he were to explain it.

I'm not pointing any fingers or really wanting to start a discussion of any kind on this subject. I just hope that "we" can keep as many willing and knowledgeable people on this forum as possible. Being somewhat "young" I hope to see more growth in this sport/hobby than anything else.

Back on subject ---

Glad to see that you decided to fix up the boat. I hate seeing "rare" boats get parted out or left in the field that are in good condition.

--
83' - Prindle 16
--

A Public Apology To Members Of This Forum

The incident mentioned by BigMace above gives new meaning to the expression "lost in translation". When I read his post and watched his video, I realized he was either from the Netherlands or Holland, in my enthusiasm to reach out to a fellow sailor, I simply asked him where he lived in Afrikaans, which is very similar to the Dutch language. In English, it is common to ask "where you from", and get an indirect answer like "East Coast". It seems that something was lost in translation, he was obviously offended. But I thought his public scolding was more akin to "tearing me a new one", invading his privacy he said, impertinent and irrelevant were some of his stronger words.

Anyway, I guess he thought it necessary to retract his membership here and delete all his posts, as a strong protest to his treatment, I for one, am sorry to see him go, as mentioned above, he seems to have immense experience that could benefit us all. I will try and track him down and write him a letter of apology, explaining to him that no offense was intended, and ask him to re-join as his experience could help many. I will keep you posted.

Renovator

Quote

Be especially careful when there might be language differences in play. A casual comment or "inside joke" sometimes translates quite a bit stronger than you intend.

I learned this the hard way. Being from the West, where Canada's other official language,(French) is rarely spoken I managed to put both feet into my mouth, up to the knee. Despite high school & 1st year university french, I really didn't understand the subtleties beyond basic conversations.
One day, while heading for Houston on the Microbus (Airbus 319) I received a message from crew sked via the datalink. C Sked is in Montreal, & french is generally their first language. I nonchalantly typed out a reply indicating my displeasure at what they wanted me to do. Unfortunately I used the word "tabernac", which I took to mean the equivalent of "you gotta be kidding".
My bad, big time. It actually is probably the worst profanity you can use in the French language...sort of like "you're mothers & sisters are ugly----s (insert the C word here).
After that I try to shut up & think before I type. I have seen many posts on various forums where at first you think, "is he retarded, or just illiterate"
Then you see a name, or location, or reference, & realize he is working in a second language. I don't slag anyone for grammar or spelling anymore. My replies in either Spanish or French would make native speakers cringe.

Quote

I will try and track him down and write him a letter of apology, explaining to him that no offence was intended,

That is the best you can do. It is to bad that so many cannot swallow their pride & do this. It could have prevented much grief, & a few wars

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

I'm just weighing in as Dutchman here. the-renovator literally asked: "Where do you live?" and this is actually a normal question in Dutch. So in my opinion Ronald is overreacting.

But this being a international forum does mean that you should watch out what you say.

--
Stefan, Denmark.
H14,H16,P16,P18,SC17,N5.8
Team StaySail
http://www.staysail.eu
--

I'm just weighing in as Dutchman here. the-renovator literally asked: "Where do you live?" and this is actually a normal question in Dutch. So in my opinion Ronald is overreacting.

i agree.

--
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook!
bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
--

klozhald

I added a matching single block on the new boom bail and re-routed the sheet to include it, increasing the purchase.

If you enlarge the pic (click on it) you can just see the extra bail on the boom with the single block, just forward of the original triple block.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

Hi guys, back to the subject of this string; I picked up a P15 last spring and have been learning the ropes on Chesapeake Bay over the past 8 months - having a great time and I am really happy with the boat!! All the best.

--
Virginiasailor
Prindle 15
--

Have a quick question for the Hobie Guru's, as mentioned before, am planning to rig my P15 with a jib using the Hobie style hanks:- are these hanks designed to clamp around the forestay that runs through the jib luff pocket on most H16's? My jib just came back from the sail loft and on closer examination the hanks are attached through the sail material on the jib luff, my concern is that the material will tear when wind-force acts on the jib. If there was a stay running through the luff pocket, the hanks could clamp around the stay thus distributing the load.

Thanks
renovator

If you look at the above hank, you see where the screw inserts, allowing the hank to be tightened onto the luff, the tear-drop shape of the opening behind the attachment point suggests that the hank clamps around a circular stay.

Renovator: The Hobie 16 has both a luff wire in the jib and a separate forestay. The luff wire is the "running" forestay once the jib is up and rig is taught (then the forestay is loose). The forestay is really only there to hold the mast up when the jib isn't rigged. The plastic hank pictured is attached to the jib luff wire on the screw side, then the other side hooks on the forestay when raising the sail. Only one hank is used.....at the top.....to help keep the jib under control while raising. Bottom line......That hank does nothing when the rig is fully taught, and it would not withstand the loads of a "real" jib hank. All that said, I'm sure suitable hanks are available for you. I've seen one custom set of Smyth H-16 sails in my lifetime, and that jib was rigged with hanks rather than the stock arrangement.

Hope this helps!

--
Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
--

So for the 1st time this year, temps were warm enough here in the Mid-West to work outside, so I did some work on the P15, removed the old registration numbers off the bows, Poli-prepped the hulls and managed to finish applying 6 coats of Poliglow to 1 hull. Will finish the other hull tomorrow, and install tramp. Once tramp is installed I can then step the mast and see how the jib fits, will be posting some new pics of the reno pretty soon.

I pulled the hub assemblies off my P15's Highlander trailer today to replace the bearings only to find that they are both worn elliptically for whatever reason. But I cannot source a hub that is 5 x 4.5 for a 3/4 inch spindle, seems that no one carries hubs for 3/4" spindles any longer, not even the Highlander Trailer Company. I will have to convert to a 1" spindle, what a schlep, quite the indaba........

Any suggestions ???

the-renovator

I will have to convert to a 1" spindle,
Any suggestions ???

I think you could take the hubs to a automotive machine shop for bearing replacement. They should be able to get the old ones out, order a couple sets with matching dimensions, and put the new ones in, for say $10 or 15 a set over the price of the bearings

--
Repairable P18
--

Not that simple, I took the old bearings and races out, replaced with new, re-installed hubs and the same problem, the hubs are worn irregular and spin but in an elliptical orbit causing the tires to wobble, need new hubs. The bearings fit a 3/4 inch spindle, no problem in obtaining the bearings, but to locate a hub that the bearings fit into, major problem. Ran around for 2 days trying to piece together enough parts to build a new axle, Tyree hardware had the 1 inch spindles, $22 each, also have the hub assembly with bearings $43 each, then run around to locate an axle, Ahrens Steel have 1 1/4inch 80 gauge round that the spindles fit into perfect, $20 for 4' 2" length, now all I need is 1 3/4 inch spring saddles for the 1 1/4 inch round, $10 each, but no one has saddles. The saddles are necessary because they mate the round to the flat and have holes that keep the axle centered on the leaf spring, can order them but will take 2 weeks.

So I took the axle with hubs to a local trailer builder and he will build me a new 3000 lb axle (cause that's all the stock he has on hand) with 1 inch spindles and hub assemblies (5 x 4.5) for $180, be ready on Monday.

Not too bad.......

the-renovator

So I took the axle with hubs to a local trailer builder and he will build me a new 3000 lb axle (cause that's all the stock he has on hand) with 1 inch spindles and hub assemblies (5 x 4.5) for $180, be ready on Monday.

Not too bad.......

Glad you got it sorted. I was going to suggest you replace the whole axle/hub assembly. Good that you had someone local, always the best option.

I once ordered axle/hub from Champion.



--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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Damon, I remember reading that article, I think a lot of the older trailers were constructed with 3/4 inch spindles, and I know someone is going to face the same problems, so hopefully they can learn from our experiences. But I wanted to catalog the problems one will face when trying to get an axle replaced, it is possible to build your own axle, there are kits available on e-bay but then you have to pay for S&H, so it kinda balances out. But sometimes there are good deals with free S&H

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T…h=item257b648fb2&vxp=mtr

You can save a lot of time and money by doing a bit of research and then calling around to get prices, some auto parts stores are also a good source for parts for trailers. But here is a basic how-to guide......

https://www.northerntool.…loads/manuals/128006.pdf

And then you need to know someone who can weld........

Had the P15 out on the water for the first time this season, and man, what a little pocket-rocket, set it up uni-rig, hit the water with 8-10 mph winds, front rolled in and winds jumped to 20-25 mph and that little Prindle took off. Got stuck in irons a few times, had to manually use the sail to back up and get reverse rudder going to swing the hulls around. But I am most impressed with the acceleration of this 15' cat, this inaugural sail just convinced me to continue with my plan for a small jib for this boat to help with tacking.

I have the rigging for the jib-block pigtails but no swaging tool, West Marine have a small one but I'm not sure if it will swage a stopper-sleeve that will be strong enough to withstand the forces acting on the pig-tail.




Comments and suggestions?

Don't bother buying those little swaging tools. If you have a West Marine, they will have a bench with a much more powerful tool,(still hand powered) that looks like a large set of bolt cutters.
It will be be right with the aircraft cable, & wire line fittings.
You use it for free, just pay for the cable, & fittings you use.
You need to have the measurements of what you are building, & understand how to orient the swages if you are double swaging, but heck, it sounds like you are going to build it anyway.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Been looking to get a swaging tool and came across this. Has anyone used something similar? The price is cheap enough just to consider giving it a shot, and a 12 ton crimp should be more than enough, right?

http://inlinedesign.us/products/hydraulic-crimping-slash-swaging-tool-kit-12-ton-cable-crimper-dies?gclid=CJr_6ITHu7cCFeh_Qgod7UgAuw

--
Craig
Windrider Rave Hydrofoil
Nacra 5.2 Restored and heavily modified
Nacra 5.2 (one under restoration)
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.8NA
SoCal
--