-- personal information deleted ---

Every transaction I have entered into with members of this forum has been positive until now. I recently purchased a Hobie 18 furler from the above individual.
I specifically asked him about the condition of the unit. His reply, quoted directly from his email;

"The furlers are in great shape if you want to call me tomorrow I would be happy to talk to you."

He would not accept a US$ check, or Pay Pal, even though I said it would be fine to defer shipping til the check cleared. He wanted cash or money order.
In addition, despite asking that he send the item US Postal Service, he dropped it off, at UPS, COD, resulting in a $50 charge at my end.
Upon receiving the item, I noticed it didn't turn freely, & made some noise. I opened up the drum to find the following.

Not only were nearly all the bearings pitted, but those at the 1 & 5 O'clock positions were not bearings at all, merely globs of corrosion. The cage & 1 race were also unserviceable. No wonder it didn't turn freely.
I contacted the above individual numerous times, to enact a resolution, giving a week between contacts in case he was away or working hard. I asked him to contact me via this forum. I know his internet is working as he is still posting.
In hindsight, his insistence of cash, & his continued refusal to even reply to my concerns leads me to believe he knew the item was in poor condition, & his intent was to pull a fast one.
The $ value will not make or break me, I offer this information as a caution to anyone else who runs across his ads & might be tempted to purchase from him. Unlike the majority of vendors here, he will "grab your cash, then hide, like a frightened animal.

USE CAUTION WHEN DEALING WITH "HULLFLYER"

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

sorry to hear about your problems....
thanks for the info

Quote

He would not accept a US$ check, or Pay Pal, even though I said it would be fine

something smells rotten with that...

Good new is that harken sells a rebuild kit.

MN3

sorry to hear about your problems....
thanks for the info

Quote

He would not accept a US$ check, or Pay Pal, even though I said it would be fine

something smells rotten with that...

Not always, there can be any number of reasons a seller wouldn't want to take those two forms of payment. A USPS money order is about the only thing that's bank will accept as cash. My bank treats all other MOs, bank checks and cashiers checks just like normal checks. Often the hassle of waiting on a check to clear is not worthwhile for low value items. PayPal has all sorts of its own problems.

I'm not defending anyone, just pointing out that I am not alarmed by those conditions.

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
--

Edchris177

I contacted the above individual numerous times, to enact a resolution, giving a week between contacts in case he was away or working hard.

By "contacted" that you actually spoke to him, and he refused to correct the situation?

This is a long time member, and very active in his local area.

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

How To Create Your Signature

How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar

How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
--

Quote

just pointing out that I am not alarmed by those conditions.

in today's world & web .... I (personally) wouldn't do business with anyone i couldn't use pay pal, or a credit card with (or some other agreed resource) so I have some protections. I pay my designers, programmers, copywriters all via pay pal. they LOVE it that i pay them 10 minutes after i get an invoice. we have NEVER had an issue.

This is Edchris177 we are talking about. This guy has been an extremely active (and very "nice") user on this forum for years. Your not gonna accept a check and wait a few days for it to clear?... not worth what hassle? having a furler sit around for 1 more week?

Speaks volumes to me...



Edited by MN3 on Aug 15, 2013 - 09:41 AM.

I've deleted hullflyer's personal information from the first post until we hear his side of this. He has been a member and active here since 2004, seems only fair.

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

How To Create Your Signature

How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar

How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
--

Quote

I've deleted hullflyer's personal information from the first post until we hear his side of this. He has been a member and active here since 2004, seems only fair.

Fair enough, for now.
I know he reads the forum, & I also asked him,(in reply to one of his posts from a couple of days ago) to please PM, email, or otherwise get in touch. As options I offered to return the item or requested compensation for parts to make it usable.
I also outlined very clearly to him the steps I would take, both here & CatSailor forum if his course of action was that of continued utter silence.
How could he have not received at least 1 of my inquiries? We exchanged quite a few emails regarding the sale, after he posted the items here under classifieds. He actually initiated the transaction by emailing to enquire if I was still interested.

"On 11/07/2013 9:00 AM, Elias Reynolds wrote:
> Still interested in furler
> EliasSent from my MetroPCS 4G Wireless Phone "

I replied that I was, & said I would buy it if it were in good condition. His response was that it "was in great shape".

As stated, in the great scheme of things, the $300 I ended up spending, ($150 for furler+$50 COD fee+$41 parts+shipping) will not make a ripple in my personal finances, but it might for others. Most importantly, it's the principle, I could have bought a brand new one for $275.
I even conveyed to him that perhaps the shipping via USPS was not quite clear,( though I find it hard to misconstrue, "when you drop it at the POST OFFICE, please mark the little green declaration sticker as "gift", otherwise our Gov't will impose taxes) & that though not thrilled, I would eat that cost, but felt he should man up & help me out with the rebuild parts.
If a guy needs $40 that badly to eat, I'd just give it to him.
In the world of E Commerce, the only thing you have is your reputation, hard to earn, easy to damage. I firmly believe that vendors should be given the chance to make things right, but if they don't, it's their reputation that will suffer.
If perchance this is all a mistake, & there is some valid reason for utter silence, I will post a full & humble apology, & send the guy a Grolcsh as a peace offering.
Until then, as they say, Caveat Emptor.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

how long has it been since you received the part and tried to contact him to discuss the situation?

Quote

"On 11/07/2013 9:00 AM, Elias Reynolds wrote:

MN3, I was simply pointing out some reasons a seller might not accept those payment methods. The buyer always has the option of not doing business with a seller for any reason.

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
--

Edchris177,

Shit happens. I've had an exact similar experience, when I purchased goods from a very well know member here, and what I lost far exceeds what your talking about. Shipping ran several hundred dollars. Well know member selling to a well know member. He represented it as one thing (excellent condition), I received it believing it was something else (totally worthless crap). Again same scenario. I took the high road. Today that member posts regularly, and sells items here often, and every time he sells something I shake my head. In retrospect, he still provides something positive to the community. He's probably laughing reading this.

Andrew experienced a personal problem with a real brick and mortar vendor. Completely different scenario when dealing with a store than a forum member. So . . .

I don't care how bad or crappy that furler is, the seller might have seen it as something else. His actions might be malevolent, maybe not. I'm not taking a side or defending anybody. But . . . .

It is mine and only my opinion that your actions are reckless and malicious, that you have overstepped the bounds of decency. To provide that member's name, and then his home address, and then even his phone number is gross misconduct. Don't really care how wrong the seller is, your dealings with him are private. If warranted a "full and humble apology" would be too late. Your intended damage is done. I hope you take the high road.

It would only be fair that Hullflyer provide us with your personal information, and I hope he does.

So what is your name?

--
Philip
--

High road my A$$. I have no problem calling out someone that sells something then refuses to return communications when there is a problem. Happened to me with a boat. Fool me once, never again. We like to believe the best from our fellow sailors but it is not always the case.



Edited by beachsailor on Aug 15, 2013 - 02:27 PM.

Tough crowd today

--
Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
--

+1

Quote

I have no problem calling out someone that sells something then refuses to return communications when there is a problem.

P.M.

I don't care how bad or crappy that furler is, the seller might have seen it as something else. His actions might be malevolent, maybe not. I'm not taking a side or defending anybody. But . . . .

This is a problem I see all of the time, people who are honestly very proud of their boat/parts or people who have parts that have sat around a decade and are less serviceable than originally thought.

I also have seen several instances of respectable people describe sails or boats very differently, sometimes this is the case of neutral parties, sometimes these lead to bad feelings between friends.

As a seller, I often trash parts or boats that are worth money to someone, but are too easily misunderstood. Things like this topic are not worth a $100 transaction.

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
--

bacho

P.M.

I don't care how bad or crappy that furler is, the seller might have seen it as something else. His actions might be malevolent, maybe not. I'm not taking a side or defending anybody. But . . . .

This is a problem I see all of the time, people who are honestly very proud of their boat/parts or people who have parts that have sat around a decade and are less serviceable than originally thought.

I also have seen several instances of respectable people describe sails or boats very differently, sometimes this is the case of neutral parties, sometimes these lead to bad feelings between friends.

You articulate the point I was making well. Kinda why my opening paragraph was made. I know that the seller I dealt with is someone I will meet some day and probably sail with, or even an evening at dinner while enjoying a beverage. No need for me to try to flame his a$$. If some of you folks here knew the details of our transaction, you would scream, holler, and throw all kinds of a rage. He saw ying in his product, I saw yang. Cost me some coin, but in the end nobody wins, so I chose the high road. Life's too short.

Posting the sellers personal information was in poor taste.

--
Philip
--

nacra55

Tough crowd today

You should have been around in the days when a vendor didn't ship a pair of gloves... We were talking cage fighting matches to the death.....

--
John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
--

Fwiw this is hardly personal information. Everything except his street address can be found on this site. Street address can be found in 30 seconds with a Google search. Just saying.

--
Pete Knapp
Schodack landing,NY
Goodall Viper,AHPC Viper,Nacra I20
--

JohnES

nacra55

Tough crowd today

You should have been around in the days when a vendor didn't ship a pair of gloves... We were talking cage fighting matches to the death.....

Are we referring to Lee and your buddy Mark M?

--
Philip
--

bacho

MN3, I was simply pointing out some reasons a seller might not accept those payment methods. The buyer always has the option of not doing business with a seller for any reason.

This is the exact reason I didn't do business with the same person a couple years ago. I figured if we couldn't agree on payment terms, there was no way the transaction would go smoothly.

Electronic payments are so much easier to deal with, as well as traceable, that I don't feel comfortable with anyone that wants something else, especially when it's clearly less convenient.

--
Rob
OKC
Pile of Nacra parts..
--

P.M.

JohnES

nacra55

Tough crowd today

You should have been around in the days when a vendor didn't ship a pair of gloves... We were talking cage fighting matches to the death.....

Are we referring to Lee and your buddy Mark M?

One of the classics!

--
John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
--

I'll vouch for EC as being a super stand-up guy who I have shared several beers with and has sent me parts on a moments notice when in need. Posting personal info might have been an error in judgement but I don't know because it was removed so fast I don't even know what was posted. I'm hoping this thing with hullflyer is just a huge misunderstanding. I know I didn't open my used roller furler and check the bearings before I put it on the boat, but then it rotated quite well. It makes me want to unstep my mast and check it out this weekend.

If I were Hullflyer and something did get screwed up in translation due to any sort of extenuating circumstances I would simply give EC a call or an e-mail to explain the issue figure out a reasonable solution and accept my imported beer and apology. We all screw things up, its not whether you make a mistake it's how you resolve it in the end.

D.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

Quote

This is a long time member, and very active in his local area.

Why then we not hearing from Hullflyer himself? And how about fixing this "misunderstanding"? And that would be giving Edchris177 ALL his money back, including all the costs he acquired.

He is THE customer and he is not happy. If Hullflyer cares about selling anything on this site, not to mention his personal reputation, the time to act is now.

--
Jack B
Hobie 17
BC, Canada
--

Unless there was a death in the family or something really tragic, no response from HULLFLYER pretty much says it all. There are extreme situations that can negatively impact a one man operation, however, it seems the furler was in pretty rough shape from the get go and any competent seller would have recognized this.

HULLFLYER gets a thumbs down on this one until the buyer is made whole.

--
'life is too short to drink cheap beer'
--

errors and omissions
1.The buyer indicated that he did not want to spend money on a money order and he was the one who suggested cash. (I have the email)
2.What he received for the $150 was a used roller furler (that was in good condition) one upper forstay with swivel, and 2 brand new small Harken blocks. $150 less $30 shipping, $25 for new bocks, so for $95 he got a roller furler and complete upper forestay.(I have the emails) If any one would like a photo of the parts I would be happy to send them.
3. Any additional charges (if he had any) were due to him living in Canada. They do have a value added tax of about 16 percent. I put a value of $100 when I shipped them, so if any thing additional was due, it was on him. If he was trying to beat the government, (and he was, I have the emails to prove it) and got caught and had to pay additional fees, so be it. I paid the shipping costs, so I doubt that there was a $50 additional fee. It just does not sound right.
4. He was replacing a bad furler, how do I know the pictures he sent were not from that one. When I sent the furler it was working fine.
5. The reason I ignored this for so long was I felt the person was trying to WORK me, I am almost 70 years old and have came across people like this in the past and did not feel like it was worth my time.
6. NEVER LISTEN TO ONE AND JUDGE TWO, there is always another side, it appears that some people on this site are quick to judge.
7. I have every email to back up my side and would be happy to send them to Damon if he would like them.

we canadians are saddled with brokerage fees when things are shipped across the border using fed ex or ups. the brokerage fee is IN ADDITION to the shipping fee, and the customs fee. USPS never charges a brokerage fee. things shipped to canada should be done by USPS if possible. i will not order anything from the states that is to be shipped fed ex or ups.
jon

--
FOILCAT
--

HULLFLYER

6. NEVER LISTEN TO ONE AND JUDGE TWO, there is always another side, it appears that some people on this site are quick to judge.

Glass houses . . . yep, we all live in glass houses.

Hullflyer, thanks for stepping forward. Again, let me make it perfectly clear I'm not taking a side, but . . . Unfortunately, you should have never been put in this position to have to reply. This transaction should have remained PRIVATE. Somewhere between EdChris posts and your reply is the truth. In the end, it is just a pissing contest and nobody wins. The damage cannot be undone.

Interesting . . . upper swivel, forestay, two new blocks? Hum . . .

--
Philip
--

removed



Edited by MN3 on Aug 19, 2013 - 11:15 AM.

If I thought that this person had a legitimate complaint I would have responded. In my mind I truly thought that he was just trying to WORK me. He truly omitted an awful lot in his post.
Did not wish to pay for money order
His idea to send cash, see above
Did not indicate how many parts he received
Implied that there was postage due COD
With these any other factors I thought that it was a no win situation and chose to ignore him.
As I indicated I have the emails, pictures and receipts and will send them to Damon if he likes.

I truly think that the Canadian government hit him with additional fees that were due, and he thought that I would pay for them and used this method to WORK me for the money.

One has a right to respond or not respond to any situation that comes up. Some are worthy of a response, some are not.

I also think because you know that I have had good relations with SLO SAILS, and you have not, and if anyone asked on this site I have indicated what my dealings have been, and they have all been positive," is why you continue to post about my situation". I am truly sorry that you had bad dealings with them, and I have had nothing but good ones. I can not hold it against SLO SAILS, that your situation went sour. One must keep an open mind and NOT LISTEN TO ONE AND JUDGE TWO, as I did in the SLOSAILS situation.

removed



Edited by MN3 on Aug 19, 2013 - 11:15 AM.

I am sorry that you have a problem with my choices in dealing with this situation. I don't, so now it's just your problem, by your choice. By the way how long ago was your situation with SLO SAILS. I still firmly believe that is why you continue to post.

i don't have problems with your choices, they don't affect me at all.

this isn't my argument, I am removing all of today's comments

Quote

was your situation with slo sail and canvas. I still firmly believe that is why you continue to post.

i dunno, 3 or 4 years? I comment every time slo sail and canvas comes up..



Edited by MN3 on Aug 19, 2013 - 01:44 PM.

Hullflyer, everything yo have written has confirmed the correctness of EC's caution. Caveat Emptor.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

With all this comes to mind the famous saying by John Blutarsky; "Hey you screwed up you trusted us"

--
Nacra 5.2
--

Quote

5. The reason I ignored this for so long was I felt the person was trying to WORK me, I am almost 70 years old and have came across people like this in the past and did not feel like it was worth my time.
6. NEVER LISTEN TO ONE AND JUDGE TWO, there is always another side, it appears that some people on this site are quick to judge.

Okay, I have heard your side and it smells, I don't care if you are 70 or 91 or 21, if you are on this site to do business THE CUSTOMER DESERVES A RESPONSE. You ignored him and said so here is the direct quote

Quote

I thought that it was a no win situation and chose to ignore him.

I HAVE HEARD YOUR SIDE, it smells like the south end of a north bound mule. I think the warning from EC was justified.

--
'life is too short to drink cheap beer'
--

sh!t happens. cheap beer or not - life is too short. So why judge?

I've had great interactions with Slo and despite this noise about Hullflyer - i'd still buy something from him. he's been around this site for a long time. the condition of used gear is very *subjective*. I drove 4 hours recently to buy a boat that had no soft spots according the seller but it was actually soft almost everywhere! (I still bought it though - $175 was fine with me for the rudder castings and tiller adjuster)

Can you really trust any internet or mail order vendor 100%? no. people have had bad experiences from the biggest internet sellers - and if you flip the coin and you're the seller? - customers can really suck and they are not always right.

--
Rob Jones
1976 Yellow p-16 - parts is parts - hulls cut up
1978 Yellow p-16 - in good working order
1979 White p-15 - parts is parts - hulls cut up
1985 White p-15 - good working order
1982 White NACRA 5.8 - project boat.
1986 White p-16 - in good working order
1975 White Hobie 3.5 - PM me if you want it
--

Quote

customers can really suck and they are not always right.

This isn't about SLO! Hullflyer was bringing up a non-relevant issue to deflect the criticism leveled at him. Even if the customer is not correct, he/she DESERVES a response. I won't buy anything from a vendor that treats customers that way, you certainly may if you want to, just be prepared bend over ................

--
'life is too short to drink cheap beer'
--

Sorry for the delay, may you live in interesting times has never been truer than the last few days. I've been busy with funeral arrangements for my father-in-law,a true gentleman, as honest as he was old. No I didn't make that up, the obituary here;
http://www.legacy.com/obi…0&fhid=17704#fbLoggedOut
Today, the contractors doing excavations for a new house next door to me at the lake property dug a little to close. Shyyte does happen, but they are a stand up company & are doing everything they can to rectify the situation, & fix it properly.

Here is what my retaining wall, French Drains & side yard looked like today. My wife & I had just arrived & stepped over to see how deep the hole was. As we looked the whole dammed thing went like a slow motion avalanche into my neighbours new basement. Ruined a good day of sailing.


I will post one final update to this thread, Hullflyers post is simply sad. Re-read it & remember those lines about "2 brand new Harken blocks", which seem to have struck a chord with at least one person.
Here are the "2 brand new Harken blocks" Hullflyer sent me. You decide if his description is accurate. He also forgot to mention that yes, I had inquired if he had a couple of trap blocks, & that I included an extra $5 bill to cover them,(they are $9 brand new here, I figured 2-3 each for used was fair). I'm happy with what I got for $5, but for him to attempt to sway readers by posting that he gave me "and 2 brand new small Harken blocks."(his quote) is simply not true. When does visible rust/corrosion equate to "brand new"?


He tries to make it seem as if he gave me bunch of freebies. The ad & deal was for the furler system, drum & swivel. The "complete upper forestay" he mentions is a 16" piece of cable. Of course he included it, he had to. It was/is swaged to the swivel & cannot be separated. I nether wanted nor asked for it.
Here is the swivel & his very generously included complete upper forestay.
I have not seen micro blocks like this before. They appear to be Harken 232's, but the top end is not round, but crimped like it was put in a vice...any one know if they are really old stock, or purposely bent for some reason?? I include that photo,with the non round frame so he knows damn well those are the blocks he sent me, & cannot try to say I switched them.

The swivel has quite a bit of lateral play, I thought of comparing it to a new unit, but if the internals are anything like the drum, I won't bother risking my mast with it.

Hullflyer seems to think I'm trying to "work" him for the taxes & shipping. Seriously?? I distinctly stated that if there had been a misunderstanding on shipping, I would eat those charges. If I were trying to "work you", why would I give you the option to refund my money & I would return the item? I would have to pay for return shipping, & be further in the hole. Here is the end of the applicable email;

"Otherwise I would like to return the item for refund.
Please advise"

For the record, I had 3 furlers, all Harken SB. One is on the 5.7,(purchased on this site then re-bearinged), one on the 5.0,(brand new as in never been installed,in original packaging) & one I brought to Hal Liske in Livermore. These can easily be seen in my furling tech album. I was seeking a Hobie furler for a Tornado project, & understood the Hobie unit to be stronger than the Harken SB.
For you to insinuate that I rustled up a worn out Hobie furler, then swapped it with what you sent, tells most readers all they need to know.
Never listen to one & judge two.....I didn't,
First- "furlers in great condition"....it wasn't
Second- "2 brand new Harken blocks"...epic fail
Third- utter silence, even when I offered to return the parts.

I have to admit that those who posted regarding difference of opinion about condition do have a point, however no reasonable person would conclude those blocks are brand new, or that furler is in great condition.
It may also be true that you do not intentionally misrepresent the condition of your items. However, in your world, if "brand new" equates to visible rust/corrosion, & "great condition" means all critical parts need replacement, then I standby my title of this thread.
Yes, it could have been kept private, you chose silence, I elected to warn others. The only way to make E commerce better is to out those who give poor service. Your reply dug a deeper hole, & painted a bleaker image of how you conduct business than any post I could concoct.



Edited by Edchris177 on Aug 21, 2013 - 08:08 AM.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

EdChris,

I was wondering why the silence and speculated something had you occupied. Sorry to hear of your loss. One of the questions I had been asking myself with all this has been answered in your reply. That was, as Dave mentioned, if not happy with what you received, why not send it back and eat the shipping? Thanks for responding to Hullflyer's rebuttal.

Like you said, it's 40 bucks. Not a big deal. I want to believe that neither one of you were trying to "work" the other. As was mentioned with my previous experience, and as Bacho illustrated, some deals get lost in translation. Has Hullflyer provided satisfactory deals to other members here? Yes. Has the seller (in my experience) done the same? Definitely. Have both of these individuals contributed in a positive way to the community? Absolutely! Should we be cautious? Certainly. Should we lynch the poor bastard? Hell no.

In the end, the member's here can make their own decision if they want to purchase goods from Hullflyer, SLO sails, or anybody else. We're all big boys. Likewise, it is Hullflyer's right to remain silent if that's his choice, even if perception indicates that it might not to be a popular choice with the member's here.

Buyer beware. We get it. You guys carry on.

--
Philip
--

Think we could get this on Judge Judy?

--
John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
--

Well I think everyone has had their say and we should move on. EC I actually think those blocks were manufactured like that. I have a dozen of them and most look like that.

D.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

It is sad that like Edchris I had to start a thread here to get a seller to respond about an issue. Obviously ignoring an issue does not make it go away in the world of public forums.

Now that both have stated their cases, Lets talk cats. EdChris tell us about that Tornado project?

--
Pete Knapp
Schodack landing,NY
Goodall Viper,AHPC Viper,Nacra I20
--

~~ I bought 5 items from Hullflyer.... No problem here. Lets do what Pete said and move on... So EdChris, tell us about that Tornado project !!!!

--
~ Vietnam Vet 69-71~ 17 Hobie w/big jib, ~18 Hobie mag,~DN Ice sailor,
and other toys.......
~~ I live in NY state on the north shore of Oneida lake in
Bernhards Bay. ~~~~~~
--