Oracle Team USA has now won 5 races in a row and have now tied New Zealand with 8 wins each. Unfortunately because of a 2 race point penalty imposed by the jury for an infraction (5 pounds of extra weight in the king post of a 3,100 lb boat) during the earlier Americas Cup World Series, New Zealand still holds match point and Oracle will have to win the next three races to retain the cup.

http://www.americascup.com/en/results-standings

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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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talk about compelling tv! I have learned more about racing watching this coverage, the graphics and multiple camera angles have been a pleasant surprise. the sense of urgency has made for good a good series.

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bill harris
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amazing coverage

USA/Oracle should have been penalized more (imho)

no excuses for cheating. placing extra weight in the front of the boat instead of the designated area is grossly poor sportsmanship - would be disqualified in any other event

At this level, If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough. To exploit the rules to maximum advantage, you have to push the boundaries.

I think the penalty is hooey. It's similar to Derek Jeter and Ichiro of New York Yankees using corked bats in a spring training game and the team getting penalized 1 game of the World Series.

Oracle got caught. Everyone cheats, not everyone gets caught.

In highschool, I played Tight End and Guard, on defense I played Middle Linebacker and Defensive End.

I can tell you that I got called for 2 holding penalties in 30 games (3 years x 10 games/year). I know I committed the "act" of Holding on at least 60% of the plays. I was also held at least that often while on defense, and the refs caught 3 or 4 of them.



Edited by presto13031 on Sep 24, 2013 - 10:06 AM.

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Jeff
Houston TX
1986 Hobie 18 Sail# 13031
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What was the motive for adding the weight. Were they trying to hold down the boat at the center of effort? I cant seem to find a discussion about why.

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the boat was faster with the extra weight.

WOW, watch races 17 and 18 if you haven't already, the replays should be available soon at
http://www.youtube.com/user/AmericasCup

Oracle has now won 10 races to New Zealands 8, with Oracle winning the last 7 in a row. Both races today were highly dramatic, I'm still breathing hard.

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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
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Replays for today's races 17 and 18 are now available on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/user/AmericasCup

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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
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Race 17 and 18 were AWESOME! Way to go USA!

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Kevin
Wantanacra
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presto13031

At this level, If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough.

Speechless



Edited by JohnES on Sep 24, 2013 - 08:14 PM.

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John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
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Quote

At this level, If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough. To exploit the rules to maximum advantage, you have to push the boundaries.

I disagree, using the extent of the rules is one thing, blatant cheating another. Isn't that what got Lehman Bros in such deep shyte, end result bankruptcy?
I always taught my kids it was better to place 2nd, or 3rd, or maybe off the podium, rather than cheat to win.
One of my finest moments as a parent was when my daughter took 1st in a downhill ski race. She told the gatekeepers that she should have been DQ'd as she straddled a gate. They told her they didn't see it, so the results stand.
She took off her gold medal on the podium & handed it to the girl who placed 2nd, then stepped off the podium.

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At every level - cheating is cheating

Rules of Racing - page 10 - http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS20132016StudyVersion-[13380].pdf

SPORTSMANSHIP AND THE RULES
Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules
that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle
of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will
promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire.

Quote

At this level, If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough. To exploit the rules to maximum advantage, you have to push the boundaries.

Quote

What was the motive for adding the weight.

I believe (Philip will correct me if i am wrong here) That the AC 45's boats (being One Design) all had a min weight requirement. There was a designated area of the boat where xtra weight was to be placed to meet the requirements and Oracle chose to place the weight up front where it would be advantageous (cheating)

The worst part of this is .... they were already the defender of the cup, they were going to be in the race regardless - there was no need to cheat / or even win

In summary, Andrew is spot on, although the experts all agree that the placement (location), theoretically would offer no advantage. Oracle immediately withdrew from ACWS, and forfeited all races and wins, and returned the trophies. I could write a book about it, so I'm not jumping in here. We've covered "ballastgate" in depth already. Plus I'm completely consumed for today, it is after all, MATCH DAY!

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Philip
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P.M.

Oracle immediately withdrew from ACWS, and forfeited all races and wins, and returned the trophies.

Exactly what should have been done. I also don't have a problem with the individual penalties for the crew members but the two race penalty is a bit of a stretch. To go back to presto's baseball comparison this like forfeiting a game in the world series for using a corked bat in in spring training in Double A ball. The one good thing from this is we got to see 2 extra races!

I have been reading forum after forum where people close to the AC and know much more than I could ever hope to know felt the penalty was unduly harsh and draconian. What is inspiring to me is watching the Oracle TEAM pull together and stage the ultimate comeback despite almost impossible odds! And its not just Spithil .......it's the grinders, tacticians, trimmers the ground crew working on the boat all night to get it ready for the next race all the while believing in each other as a TEAM! Anybody watching Oracle rounding mark four under full foil at 35 knots in race 18 HAS to be impressed!! Go TEAM ORACLE!!!

Hey Guys< im new to this beachcat world although i have raced on trimarans and mono hulls up to 100 feet long. Yes the whole "Ballastgate" thing is an issue but im going to blame the Larry Ellison. I know the ac45 and ac72 are pretty neat and slick boats. But Seriously Larry Ellison really ruined the sport by being biased about monohulls and became a smart A** and decided build these boats with having the pressure on the other teams that need funds to create it. I can see why Alinghi isn't in it and why NZ is pissed off especially with all the court issues they went through. IM PRETTY SURE ORACLE DOESNT NEED ADVICE FROM Ellison TO WIN anything. Larry Elision= money Talks Bs walks
ORACLE WILL WIN With Help Or Not.

GO ORACLE TEAM USA..WOOHOO

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:) Eriel
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While we are waiting for the race this afternoon here is some good reading. An interview with Gino Morrelli about the origin of the boat rules for the current Cup. He has some interesting things to say about foiling and his ideas for the future of the boats.

http://www.sailingworld.c…cas-cup/writing-the-rule

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Damon Linkous
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My statement wasn't meant to condone cheating. I repeated what a NASCAR crew chief had said when he got caught. He is now in charge of catching the cheaters in NASCAR. Irony, huh?
The 2 ideas my post was meant to convey was:
1. In order to maximize performance the grey areas of the rules must be thoroughly explored. Sometimes the line gets crossed.

2. Blatant cheating should be caught and punished according to the severity of the infractions.

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Jeff
Houston TX
1986 Hobie 18 Sail# 13031
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yea but what do those guys know? they can only turn left and go around in circles?

we at least go around in triangles and other shapes :)

Quote

I repeated what a NASCAR crew chief had said

The mindset is the same between Jeff Gordon, Lewis Hamilton, Ken Block, and James Spithill.

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Jeff
Houston TX
1986 Hobie 18 Sail# 13031
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that was one for the ages! can't wait for the next cup, can only imagine what improvements will be coming...friggin' space ships!

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bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
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What a great comeback. I wonder how much of the performance improvement is from all the data acquisition and analysis done by the shore crew. Makes me wonder especially with Oracle being the funding. The sailors did a great job, but the boat prep and Performance analysis was a huge part of the win. For all us nerds out there to ponder.

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Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
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at 8 to 1 i told my sons it was game,set, match, the kiwi boat was faster. i guess that it is never over until it is over. oracle changed the foils and tactician and they became faster and came back and won, amazing. despite a 2 race deficit. amazing!



Edited by marcs2 on Sep 26, 2013 - 01:55 PM.

Sorry but I just can't cheer for a crew that cheats! They are pathetic! Lets look at the real winners. The Kiwis - 90% Kiwi crew, USA - 1 crewman was american, The Kiwis spent 100 million, USA - 200 million, The Kiwis raced a Kiwi built boat, so did the US. Oh and lets not forget the Kiwis didn't cheat!!!! WIN to the Kiwis!!!!!

Lance Armstrong = Team Oracle - the only difference, both got caught, just one got to keep the win.

By the way the Kiwis will not race if the costs don't come down see Bloomberg News.

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Jim
New Orleans

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amazing comeback
amazing final race
couldn't ask for a more exciting race or series

shipchips1

Sorry but I just can't cheer for a crew that cheats! They are pathetic! Lets look at the real winners. The Kiwis - 90% Kiwi crew, USA - 1 crewman was american, The Kiwis spent 100 million, USA - 200 million, The Kiwis raced a Kiwi built boat, so did the US. Oh and lets not forget the Kiwis didn't cheat!!!! WIN to the Kiwis!!!!!

Lance Armstrong = Team Oracle - the only difference, both got caught, just one got to keep the win.

By the way the Kiwis will not race if the costs don't come down see Bloomberg News.

Only a very small part of the team was involved in the AC45 situation, and were not on the AC72.

The Kiwis got beat, fair and square. Statements made now about the next AC and cost do not mean much.

--
Greenville SC

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shipchips1

Sorry but I just can't cheer for a crew that cheats! They are pathetic! Lets look at the real winners. The Kiwis - 90% Kiwi crew, USA - 1 crewman was american, The Kiwis spent 100 million, USA - 200 million, The Kiwis raced a Kiwi built boat, so did the US. Oh and lets not forget the Kiwis didn't cheat!!!! WIN to the Kiwis!!!!!

Thanks for that laugh...go USA! they deserve it..



Edited by TylerH on Sep 26, 2013 - 08:43 AM.

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Tyler holmes
Panama city, FL

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I'd rather be honest then impressive

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Jim
New Orleans

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the crews on the cup boats are hired on their ability, it is a meritocracy. they hire the best sailors and they are Kiwis.
if the americans were the best they would be hired in a new york minute but unfortunately they are not.

Quote

the crews on the cup boats are hired on their ability,

If you want to learn how it's done in sports nowdays watch the movie MONEYBALL with Brad Pitt. One of the best sports movies to come along in years!

Edchris177

She took off her gold medal on the podium & handed it to the girl who placed 2nd, then stepped off the podium.

She rocks!

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here are the numbers and the reason oracle won. they changed the balance on the boat, adjusted the wing and foils and that resulted in a 100sec. improvement to weather. the kiwis also improved their windward speed but by 50 sec. the faster boat almost always or always wins.

marcs2

the crews on the cup boats are hired on their ability, it is a meritocracy. they hire the best sailors and they are Kiwis.
if the americans were the best they would be hired in a new york minute but unfortunately they are not.

So what is Randy Smyth..chopped liver? I am sure there are a few other name to put up here as well..

We have some great sailors in the good ole US of A.... That probably would have done very with as part of the USA team...

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John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
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shipchips1

Sorry but I just can't cheer for a crew that cheats

I am with you on this, but not all of those involved with the AC72 were part of this,they took their penalty straight up, and came back for the win... Rest assure I can guarantee the measurement guys and the referees were all over Oracle like bee on honey every day.



Edited by JohnES on Sep 27, 2013 - 04:55 PM.

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John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
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JohnES

marcs2

the crews on the cup boats are hired on their ability, it is a meritocracy. they hire the best sailors and they are Kiwis.
if the americans were the best they would be hired in a new york minute but unfortunately they are not.

So what is Randy Smyth..chopped liver? I am sure there are a few other name to put up here as well..

We have some great sailors in the good ole US of A.... That probably would have done very with as part of the USA team...

On the whole "best sailors" thing, the Americas Cup has always been sort of a community of it's own, you see the same players through the years. Mainly because it has always and originally been a game played by major Yacht Clubs around the world, big traditional yacht clubs do not have a tradition or connection to multihull sailors. Hopefully this can change, but there are a lot of built-in problems for multihulls at most yacht clubs.

One place that should produce long-term results is the Red Bull Youth America's Cup which is specifically designed to "grow" multihull sailors for future Americas Cups.

Besides rooting for the home team, this and the whole "standardized Americas Cup multihull boat" was the reason I was hoping for an Oracle win. Give them another 3 years to fine tune the whole thing and it could really be marvelous.

I think Pete Melvin's idea of moving to wing masts and fully battened sails that can be reefed would be a big help in reducing campaign expense. He mentioned it takes 35 people to just manage the wing during a race series and a whole separate design team from the boat and foils. If they standardized the mast itself and left sail development open with measurement then there is still plenty of room to spend 10's of millions but no need to spend hundreds of millions.

Even billionaires have limits, I saw an interview with one (can't remember the name) who was watching the racing from his super-yacht say that he'd be open to sponsoring a campaign for 40-50 million but not 200 million. Pretty much like me saying I'd be willing to spend 40-50 dollars on a football game ticket but not 200 dollars.

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Australia accepted as challengers for America's Cup
Monday Sept 30th

http://www.theguardian.co…nge-americas-cup-sailing

here we go again!!
j

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Quote

Besides rooting for the home team, this and the whole "standardized Americas Cup multihull boat" was the reason I was hoping for an Oracle win. Give them another 3 years to fine tune the whole thing and it could really be marvelous.

it made for some great tv and I turned on several friends/family to it...they all loved it! the drama around the series this time was compelling and could be built on for the next series. I'll be tuned in for sure

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Quote

One place that should produce long-term results is the Red Bull Youth America's Cup which is specifically designed to "grow" multihull sailors for future Americas Cups.

if you haven't done so, try watching some of the Youth races. they provide the fleet racing excitement that the AC72's didn't give us.
j

http://www.youtube.com/re…1.11.youtube.yqIlWN_nfOQ



Edited by arch on Oct 01, 2013 - 06:01 PM.

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