This is a letter I sent to Marcello Cisternes shortly after I received the items listed in this add. I know that there have been others that have recently had problems with items purchased through listings on this site. BEWARE THIS SELLER! Marcelo, why did you send me a box of garbage? It would have been cheaper to throw it in the trash in Florida!! Ok, the rudder is fine I think, Mast balls are good, Rudder springs seem to be new, The rudder castings are completely unusable and unrepairable both tiller tendons are cracked and unusable, The stainless steel rudder bolts are not Rudder bolts there are bolts to mount Cat trax cradles on the cat trax, they came in a plastic bag containing cat trax cradle mounting instructions! The diamond wires are used( I have to assume in Florida and they are likely beyond service life judging from the wear on the thimble, the condition of the rollers, and the corrosion on the swage ) , are not new, have been exposed to salt water, the galvanic action between the dislike metals HAS weakened the SS cable and so they are also un serviceable ! A good, experienced cat sailor would know this. And he would not try to sell other more or less experienced cat sailors the garbage from his recyclable bin. Someone less experienced may have used these diamond wires and ended up snapping their carbon fiber mast. I know, not your problem. Here's the problem Marcelo. Damon is doing us all a huge service by offering to maintain a site through which we can get/offer tons of information and buy and sell catamarans and catamaran parts. It works well for all if we describe the items we are selling accurately and leave the recyclables in the recycle bin. When we simply use this site to attempt to defraud each other, it harms this site and the sailing community. This site needs to maintain integrity for the common good of the community. OK, so I just went out to my shop and broke out a little bit of Lacquer thinner on a rag and took some of the grey primer off of this rudder and it is not as you described. I asked specifically if there was cracking on the head at the mounting holes, you said it could not have cracks because it's never been used. I asked you if it was new, you said it was. It's not. It is repaired. State this in your description! I will be disputing the entire amount of our transaction due to fraud. Or, you can credit the entire amount back to my paypal account, plus return shipping, I believe you told me it was $50. I will ship all items back to you, or , I can throw away your trash and skip return shipping. Call me at your earliest convenience! I will send a copy of this to Damon so that he knows what is happening on his site.

This is his response. Posted in fairness to him .Sorry but the rudder was never used by me and may be it was painted but it is completely usable. I told u the other parts except the new ones were used. The diamond wires were never at the sea because my boat was on a lake and here i dont have a boat. So your opinion of them is completely wrong. How could they rust in sweet water?.They were hanging outside of my garage for a long time and I changed them because i had a new set but not for rust. U should know that ssteel doesnt exist. It takes longer to rust but they will rust anyway. If u put them on wd40 the rust will go and they will be good for years. The bolts were packed and I had no way to know they were from a cat trax. The rudder by itself is 250 plus shipping so u r still having a good deal for everything u got. For the 50 that u paid extra u got 2 new rudder pins, 2 new mast balls, 2 new sets of springs, 1 set of new bolts for use in anything and the diamonds that can still be used and they cost more than 100 new.
If u want to discard everything is up to you, but dont blame me latter.
Regards

Marcello
The rudder head is cracked in two places at the upper mount hole. I asked you specifically if there were cracks in that area, your response was "NO" " How could it be, it was never mounted on a boat" I asked if I was new. Your response"Yes"

The rudder castings.
Marcello, they are trash. Not opinion, fact. And there is no way that you didn't know this. One of them was sawn off a rudder with a hack saw. The pintle eyes of both are frozen in and cannot be removed. One of them has been sawed off with a hacksaw, the other pintle eye shows signs that it was put in a vice and was twisted out of shape because it would not come out.

Diamond wires. dielectric corrosion. Do some research before you sell things that could damage an unsuspecting NEW sailors boat.

Rudder bolts for i20. Are for H18, nowhere in your add do you mention H18 rudder pins.

SS bolts. "The bolts were packed and I had no way to know they were from a cat trax."
The instructions for installation of the "bolts" for mounting cat cradles to cat trax was clearly visible in the same bag as the bolts! It says on the instructions what they are and wha they are for. Rudder bolts?

Tendons. Cracked

Mast balls, good
Springs, good

$40 should cover that

I go to my credit card companies next and bring fraud charges. Your move. $300 plus shipping, I'll give you $50 for the mast balls and the springs. Done deal.

By the way, Marcelo's username is

User name: mcisternasb

Ship it all back and have him refund your Paypal, sounds easy enough.

Posting threads like this sound be a last resort.

My personal feeling is that if an online vendor is bad, then out them. That is really the only way to drive them mostly out of business, & keep online selling relatively honest.
It also probably helps from a prevention point of view. It may well serve as a deterrent to someone who is contemplating a less than honest ad.
The honest sellers never worry about being embarrassed publicly, they may well ship a defective item, but they rectify it.
Several years ago I bought a set of spreader bars from a vendor here who always has ads. When they turned out to be seized solid, he lost no time in giving me suggestions on how to free them, & when it didn't work issued a prompt refund. That's how it should work, & I'm sure he values his reputation more than the $50.
I would not hesitate to deal with him again, & have given his contacts to several people up here needing some parts.
The bad apples, screw 'em, as long as you don't post malicious lies that might attract libel action.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Edchris177

...It also probably helps from a prevention point of view. It may well serve as a deterrent to someone who is contemplating a less than honest ad.
The honest sellers never worry about being embarrassed publicly, they may well ship a defective item, but they rectify it...

...The bad apples, screw 'em, as long as you don't post malicious lies that might attract libel action.

+1 on this one

--
Adam Bartos
Nacra 5.0
SolCat 18 (sold)
Lake Zurich, IL
--

carolinacatamarans

Ship it all back and have him refund your Paypal, sounds easy enough.

Posting threads like this sound be a last resort.

You know, this guy is trying to unload his garbage bin to someone across the country. He should expect to be outed as a potential scammer to all who are so fortunate to cross his path. I would love to send him back his junk, but as it stands, he feels it is not his problem. It's in a box , ready to go.

azcat,

Not picking a fight but his ad states used. Also, the pictures tell a compelling story. It's clear the rudder was used, what do you expect it's a Gen1 rudder blade, notorious for cracking in that local, put some glass on it go sailing. We did over 200 miles with cracking in that area, highly loaded twin wire reaching with the kite up, didn't have time to do glass work. Why would you ever buy diamond wires off someone, if you don't know them personally? Rust is clearly visible in the photos. Besides, to be fair, I bought a brand new set from a pro rig shop we all use, put them on the boat the were starting to rust 1 week later, boat sitting hundreds of miles,from salt water, not even touching the water.

On the story of the castings, well why dump a pair of good castings? Cut marks clearly visible in the photos. It's a Nacra 20 the first parts to fail will be the aluminum ones.

I'd say he sent you $150 worth of goods, $100 for the repairable blade and $50 for the other bits.



Edited by samc99us on Oct 07, 2013 - 08:41 PM.

I would have to agree with Sam, I also don't know the seller from Adam.

If I bought that lot, I don't think I would be unhappy. The condition of anything Doesn't surprise me in the least bit. The ad said used and your description of it all sounds like what I would expect. Maybe you have unrealistic expectations?

I will also add that gen 1 rudders are getting harder to find. I've sold them for $250 a piece several times, looking far worse than yours. I don't think this was a Bin of trash.



Edited by bacho on Oct 08, 2013 - 04:01 AM.

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
--

pictures or it didn't happen...

--
Jared - Seattle,WA
1980 Prindle 16
--

jchrist

pictures or it didn't happen...

I ASSume this is the ad and gear

http://www.thebeachcats.c…used-parts-for-sale.html




The rudders and casting and shrouds looks used and worn to me.



Edited by MN3 on Oct 08, 2013 - 09:20 AM.

Lets add that "new" lower castings from Murrays are $171, and "new" Gen3 blades are $510. I use "new" in quotes as the photos Murray's has on their website, and the parts they likely have in-stock, aren't the latest generation of these parts. The Gen3 Blades are on iteration #3 (1st iteration = no carbon trailing edge, 2nd iteration = carbon TE, latest iteration = UHM carbon, improved layup after the introduction of the Nacra 17). The lower castings now have bushings in them, released this year I believe on the Mk. 2 Infusion, F20C, Nacra 17. Anyway, to be frank, all versions of these parts work perfectly fine and most won't tell the difference between them.

So you have a usable rudder blade half off what a new blade costs (not to mention you really need 2x Gen3 blades to make the switch), and some mast balls. Throw everything else in the trash if you want, and get on with sailing.

Seems like there were mutual misunderstandings on the condition of some of the gear

i hope the seller is/was given an opportunity (or 2) to respond / remedy the situation before we blast them online

Umm, samc , Andrew, go back and read earlier posts. I asked specifically about there being cracks....blah blah blah-Seriously, I'm not writing it again, go back to the top and read it again.
I know, I should just roll over and accept that someone will sell me something that I specifically stated I didn't want. A used rudder could be used for an hour and replaced, it's still used. And no one said anything about changing rudder gens. Comprehension! Work on it!
If the rudder wasn't cracked, I may have accepted the castings being frozen, especially if I had been informed of their true condition before hand. But I wouldn't have paid to have them shipped 3000miles either. I would have told him to throw them back in his trash bin, or even better, do a good deed and recycle them so that your not temped to try to sell them again. Btw, if you look at the pics, one of the castings LOOKS pretty good. And I asked specifically if they were useable. They aren't .
I can't believe you guys would accept this kind of behavior. I guess that's why we're in a national catastrophe as we speak, some of us just accept the crap that's thrown at us.
Well, some don't.
Re diamonds- just don't resell them, YOU replaced them for a reason.
BOLTS, $5 DGAF - but not as stated in the add
Bacho- you would accept a rudder that you asked specifically about cracks in the head? That's just dumb. I hope that's working well for you. And Alu castings with SS bolts sized in them? HMMM.

THIS CANT BE THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND! IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS WITH YOUR ITEMS, STATE IT IN THE ADD, OR AT THE VERY LEAST, DISCLOSE THE PROBLEMS WHEN ASKED ABOUT THEM OVER THE PHONE!

Andrew, I'm surprised at your comments. Considering.

Carolinacats, I have opened a dispute with papal , attempted to contact the seller, he told me to p up a rope, nextis c card dispute. Didn't want it to get to this, it's boxed up and ready to go.

Quote

Andrew, I'm surprised at your comments. Considering.

Considering what?
I gave SLO sails and Canvas about 4 months to return my property (tramp that was sent as a template) and every opportunity to return my calls and emails (never done) before i slammed them online for their unethical business practices.



Edited by MN3 on Oct 09, 2013 - 07:17 AM.

azcat I can read, I did happen to graduate top of my class with a degree in rocket science. And no, I don't generally spout that information unless dealing with general dickheads. This sure as heck isn't rocket science. You are correct, there was some mis-information from the seller, yes one casting looks usable in the photo and rudder head cracks aren't very visible unless you look closely. Again, pretty much every Gen 1 blade I've seen is USED, there is wear on the rudder in the photo, clearly it is used, if the seller stated otherwise you should have called bullshit on it in the first place. Instead you crossed your fingers and accepted the rest of his statements as fact. You are as much to blame in this process as he is. Again, you can repair the rudder blade with a little time and some glass, fair it out it'll be better than new. As to the casting, seized SS bolts suck but likely a little patience, lots of penetrating oil and you'll probably get a working casting.

As to the seller, in a perfect world everyone would be more upfront and honest. He shouldn't have lied and sold parts that weren't usable, but again I don't think you got cheated. If in doubt ask for more detailed photos.

As to the other B.S we deal with on a normal basis, I would probably put up a bit of a stink if I experienced this. However, sometimes you have to move on and go sailing. A prime example would be the BRAND NEW mast base casting that I failed to sand and it gouged my mast step ball a little bit. Sure I can throw a stink with Nacra, but this wasn't my dealers fault and I suspect the part is older stock. So I will sand it some the next time the mast is down and move on. My earlier point about Nacra parts was to make you and others aware that many of the issues we have with these parts to begin with have been rectified by Nacra HQ, just those parts aren't yet in circulation stateside.

My point was, I don't think you got hosed. I think you paid a fair price for the items you received.

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
--

Bacho, you may be correct. However, I would like to be the one who makes the decision on what I am spending my money on. When I ask for specific info on a part, it's because I want to make an informed decision based on truthful answers. I asked about this rudder and was very specific about my question.

Sam, there are plenty of doctors out there with bad decision making skills, so no need to bring that up. I'm glad you can read. Funny how I'm the dickhead but he is the one that misrepresented his parts. And you are the one calling names. Congrats on your degree. Again, if you go to the top there is good info up there.

I did not receive what I was sold. Oh, and what kind of phone do you have that allows you to see the cracks in the head of the rudder in the area in question? Cuz on my crappy IPhone , I can't see jack. Possibly I should upgrade.

Azcat, yeah I called you out. Grow some balls, the way you are handling this may not be the best way, it's easy to do when one is upset. At least your seller is still talking to you, I've been screwed completely on the internet before, bought something, completely wrong item received, seller gone. Moved on with my life, at least you have a product that represents what was in the photos! What isn't present in your post are photos of the artifacts as you received them or a timeline. Again, I understand you are upset but I think you did OK in the end. For what it's worth, I wouldn't conduct business like this seller, I advertise exactly what I have and try to set a fair price, plus will negotiate. But the world is a sorry place and honesty checked out a few decades ago.

I do agree there should be a feedback system.

As to my degree, well it helps finance the boat, for the time being (when my healthcare costs double, well, play toys are the first to get cut)...I've met plenty of people smarter than I and many of them do race beach cats.

Photo wise, I don't even have a smartphone..I use a PC or my ipad. You can see cracking under the after lower bushing in the photo I bring up on my PC, plus it looks like material is missing back there.

Not too worried about the lower bushing, if the bolt were ripped out at that location, I'm pretty sure the whole stern would be missing. Upper bushing position is the concern and was the area I asked him about very specifically.
BTW, I am not in contact, he has gotten very scarce. Maybe he should have payed the phone bill with the money he scammed.
Sam, you have a funny writing style. Did they teach you in PHD school to slam , then back off?
I don't need balls for this, my vagina is bleeding just fine. This is fun though. Keep it coming!
What would be really cool is MC piping in with his intentions to make things right.

Dickhead, and not v@&/^@ ?
Sorry Damon

Andrew, I understood completely why SLO ended up under the bus. I also had an odd experience with them around the same time. I think they were expanding at the time. Water under the bridge. I hope your issue was taken care of.
MC has fallen of do the face of the planet. You know him?

Yes, Jeremy from Surf City Catamarans contacted Carl at SLO to see what was up with my tramp. He said that he had just picked up contracts from Murray's and some other sail loft and was moving into a bigger location and would return the tramp to me.

SLO never returned the tramp


I have no clue who MC is

Azcat I've been warned before I can't play hardball. I can but then peoples feelings get hurt, hence the back off. I'll say at the end of the day you got scammed a little, and is why I prefer to work with guys I know, Rick Bliss, Murray's, Dynamic Sailing etc. Shame the Gen1 blades are harder to come buy, they were quick.

I'm much more amiable in person, I'll buy ya a beer or three to numb the pain if you're ever in the area.

Dint worry, my feelings aren't hurt.
I do feel better that I was only scammed a little.
I paid him in greenbacks, SUCKER!

Include your checking account number in that purchase?