Just published an update about the fully foiling Flying Phantom from Phantom International in France.

This is the same folks as Sail Innovation that are famous for their innovative and beautiful F18 class sails and the previously launced Phantom F18.

Please read the article and discuss it here.
http://www.thebeachcats.c…/Fully-Foiling-Beachcat/

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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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awesome! sailing just like the America's cup 72's.

YES! 'nuff said.

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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Can we get a group discount Damon?

Hey, nice avatar!

Do these boats have any sort of foil control?

I know the Moth's have little flaps on the foils to control the ride height, and the AC72's would rake the board forward and aft to control the ride. From the video and pictures it looks like these foils are one solid price with no flaps; and I also don't see an obvious foil rake change... so how do they do it?

These things look amazing. I cant wait to see one

I don't think there are any flaps, the dagger/foils angle of attack can be adjusted under way just like the AC72 by tilting them fore and aft.

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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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I want in on that group discount!!!!

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Jim
New Orleans

'83 H18 SX mods 2013 -
'65 Lavey Craft 2005 -
'69 Cal 25 1997 - 2001
'80 P16 1980 - 1996
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bberkey

Do these boats have any sort of foil control?

DamonLinkous

I don't think there are any flaps, the dagger/foils angle of attack can be adjusted under way just like the AC72 by tilting them fore and aft.

Hi,
Here's a pic from their website, its clear they have some sort of "trim or adjustment" possibilities.


Here's the curve of the foil


And the link to their website http://www.phantom-international.com/

Grtz, André



Edited by catmodding on Jan 20, 2014 - 11:50 PM.

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Tornado (80's Reg White)
Prindle 18-2 (sold)
Dart 16 (hired and hooked)
13 mtr steel cutter (sold)
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Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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And a video from the website, sailing starts at 00:45

http://vimeo.com/83829320

André

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Tornado (80's Reg White)
Prindle 18-2 (sold)
Dart 16 (hired and hooked)
13 mtr steel cutter (sold)
Etap 22, unsinkable sailing pocket cruiser.

Amsterdam, the Netherlands
--

from the phantom website......
"Her price: around 26,000 euros."

$35,000 US + s/h to the US
$97.00 per pound

crashing at 30 knots.......? priceless!
j



Edited by arch on Jan 21, 2014 - 04:46 AM.

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Aquacat 12 (sold)...'87 Nacra 5.8 (sold)...'03 Nacra Inter18 (sold)
Venture 15 (sold)....'89 Nacra 5.8 (sold)...'91 Nacra 5.8NA (sold)
'99 Nacra Inter20 (sold)
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The Flying Phantom from Phantom International in France is not a beachcat in the truest sense.
You cannot beach those foils.
You have to hold the cat in the breakers and await the catrax.

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Bob
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Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
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klozhald

The Flying Phantom from Phantom International in France is not a beachcat in the truest sense.
You cannot beach those foils.
You have to hold the cat in the breakers and await the catrax.

They are used off a beach so I think they are beach cats. Fact is, NONE of the new generation racing boats are usually "beached" in the traditional Hobie 16 sense, and even a lot of serious Hobie 16 racers are prone to stop in the water and use cat trax.

Most owners of new F18's, F16's, N17's, Carbon 20's etc. never intentionally let their boats drag across the sand, even using stern pads while resting on the cat trax (with cradles) while on land.

So while the Foils are a new level of complication, mainly because they have to be inserted from underneath the hulls, the owners experience won't be that different from other new models of beachcats. Even putting in the foils from underneath isn't that bad since the boat is light enough to lift by pulling on the opposite trap wire.

That's my take, what does everyone else think?

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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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What do they do about kick-up rudders for T or L rudders? Do you just rip off the transom if you unintentionally ground it at 30 knots?

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Rob V.
Panama City, FL
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you do not sail these things where there is any possibility of hitting the bottom or very bad and expensive things will happen.



Edited by marcs2 on Jan 21, 2014 - 07:13 PM.

I agree with Damon. The C2 does not get landed on the beach like my old Hobie 18 did. I treat it much the same as they are in the video.

I would imagine there is a break away of some sort on the rudders, like the bolts being designed to break instead of ripping the transom off. Either way, its on you to keep them off the bottom in the first place.

Besides, at 30knots your foiling and only drawing 12" of water

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Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
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I was thinking that even if they had the standard kick up system it would just act as a brake once it popped up. It would certainly beat the heck out of the damage that could be done to the boat, not to mention the two crew who would continue to fly forward at 30 knots through the rigging and all.

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Rob V.
Panama City, FL
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Seems like conditions have to be just right to take one of those out, thanks, but I will stick with my 35 year old hobie 16 and sail it just about anytime and not worry about running it up on the beach or into semi submerged obstacles.

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Kenneth Purdy
Hobie 16
Nacra 5.2 (2)
Banshee
First Coast, Florida
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I wonder how long it will take some resourceful individual to come up with a kit to outfit most brands of catamarans. It may not be a good, but who knows foiling is at its infancy. Commercially.

I love these things but the cost is going to make them untouchable for most beachcat sailors myself included. They will most likely however be used in competitions that are more gauged to a semi or professional crew. But I am willing and ready to trade in my F18 Infusion for a even up swap to help them get some here in the Northeast. I don't see retro fitting as an option either as it would require lots of glass/ carbon work to get done and how many different manufactures and models are there? Besides I am an old tart and would most likely hurt myself

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2007 Nacra F18 Infusion
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I agree aftermarket is probably not feasible especially for our old boats. But I would think that the technology is going to slowly creep into the newer boats. I wouldn't be surprised to see it work its way into F18 or other classes in some limited way. The same way curved boards, chined hulls and wave piercing bows has. Probably the next step in the evolution of the N20 carbon or Olympic 17. And as the technology gets into more boats it will become better and cheaper.

I've seen this happen in the mountain bike industry over and over. 15 years ago disk brakes were heavy and only found on super expensive bikes. Now even a lot of the cheap bikes have them, and they are crazy light.

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Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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I hope you are right Dave,, But like I said I am open to trading my Infusion out for a new Phantom even up.

lol
Jenna

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2007 Nacra F18 Infusion
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Besides I would provide some serious crash photo ops learning to sail it

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Can you run standard F18 boards/foils and race it in F18 rule races?

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Jim
New Orleans

'83 H18 SX mods 2013 -
'65 Lavey Craft 2005 -
'69 Cal 25 1997 - 2001
'80 P16 1980 - 1996
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No, the boat isn't really an F18 at all and violates the F18 rules in almost every way. The beam is too wide and it has too much sail area. It's also too light and made from non F18 approved materials.

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
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shipchips1

Can you run standard F18 boards/foils and race it in F18 rule races?

I read somewhere that conventional cat hulls would likely break if you try to make them fly with foils.

Thanks guys, it will take a while for enough of those to get sold to have a class for racing if ever. I was hoping it could run in F18 rule races without the foiling boards.

I guess you would have to run it in open class and use its rating for corrected time, correct?

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Jim
New Orleans

'83 H18 SX mods 2013 -
'65 Lavey Craft 2005 -
'69 Cal 25 1997 - 2001
'80 P16 1980 - 1996
--

Andinista, it'd be nice to have a link on that. I think you need a lot of structural reinforcements, but maybe it can be done.

Stock F-18 is much heavier than the Flying Phantom. It is, unfortunately, not a great candidate for a flying boat. A F-16 would be much better, especially since some are designed with a little bit of lift to begin with

You'd be running the Flying Phantom in open class against the F20c, M20 and Olympic 17 in Florida, and that's about it. All those platforms have curved boards and thus are 90% flying.

samc99us

Andinista, it'd be nice to have a link on that. I think you need a lot of structural reinforcements, but maybe it can be done.

Sorry, i didn,t find it. I think it was somebody from the Phantom team in an interview but can't remember where.
I'm sure it was a first source and talking from experience and not just a light and uninformed opinión

Would someone at OSYC please buy one!!! That way I can tell the wife I "have" to get one so we can have a class race. Come on guys, help me out!!!

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Jim
New Orleans

'83 H18 SX mods 2013 -
'65 Lavey Craft 2005 -
'69 Cal 25 1997 - 2001
'80 P16 1980 - 1996
--

For those of you who can't wait to foil or don't have the budget to sustain wrecking a 30k cat while learning to foil there is an Australian company that makes a foiling retrofit kit for the laser. If memory serves correct its around $5k and bring your own laser. I looked at it briefly a few weeks ago and it a full set of new blades with foils on them and some other parts.

Foiling solo may keep the admiral happy by watching from shore.

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Bob Miller
1983 P16 Sail # 7312
"Miller Time" A work in progress; out of the water for 16 years
Barnegat Bay NJ
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Here's a link to the Flying Phantom official race-debut, http://vimeo.com/89758333
They smoke every other cat on the water !!
Meanwhile Nacra offers the F20 Carbon with a foiling package, http://www.nacrasailing.com/nacra-f20-carbon-fcs/
And a upgrade kit for the "older" F20 Carbon.
If other builders would come up with an upgrade-kit..
Who knows, we all will be clocking 30 knts + in a few years time.

Gtrz, André

--
Tornado (80's Reg White)
Prindle 18-2 (sold)
Dart 16 (hired and hooked)
13 mtr steel cutter (sold)
Etap 22, unsinkable sailing pocket cruiser.

Amsterdam, the Netherlands
--