Has anyone tried to step or unstep a Hobie 18 mast by putting the boat up on only one hull while it is on the beach?

I wouldn't do it that way - you'll likely snap off your mast base as the mast moves aft and the high hull starts to rotate down, twisting along the way. There's a guy on here who knows all to well how easy it is to snap it by lowering it the correct way
If the mast height and/or weight is the issue, use a solo righting system and a winch on your mast support on the trailer, it works very well and is safe.

--
Tim Grover
1996 Hobie Miracle 20
Two Hobie 14's
1983 G-Cat Restored
Memphis TN / North Mississippi
--

Yeah, that mast base is quite intolerant of abuse. I build gin poles for most of my boats, pretty simple and cheap if you got any any stuff lying around. Safe and fairly Quick to raise the mast solo. Pm me if you wish, I've got pics lying around.

Dave

I think it would be more work to tip the boat on the beach (without mast) than it is to just step it. Momentum is key, don't stop once you start going up of you can help it.

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
--

Hobie / E-Z mast stepper - (gin pole)http://static.hobiecat.co…_attachments/3151z52.pdf

Would be WAY harder than just stepping the mast the normal way - would likely require at least four people and almost certainly end in disaster.

The best/easiest/safest way to step the mast is to put the boat on the ground with beach wheels under the rear crossbar (so the bow is tipped slightly down). Have one person hold the mast on their shoulder near the mast tang. The other person then stands on the tramp and grabs the mast and raises it. If you are not strong enough to do the lift yourself, then have the person that was holding the mast at the tang come up on the tramp and lift with two people. Raising the mast with the boat on the ground gives you a more stable platform than on the trailer and it also allows you to start with the mast at a higher angle relative to the boat, so you don't have to bend over as far to pick the mast up.

sm

How long is the pole on the E-Z mast stepper?

--
78 Hobie 14 (buried in the garage)
75 Venture 15 (love it)
--

Not sure of the length of the pole on the EZ, but it's really convenient if the pole length is equal to the distance between the front of the mast and the intersection of the bridle wires and the forestay, so that when the mast is up, the forestay can be pinned without having to remove the gin pole. Once it's secure you can remove the device.

Pole length is less critical if you're using the trailer winch. My gin poles have a trailer winch mounted to the pole near the mast, with the line/cable running to a strong block at the pole tip. The line has a hook or shackle that connected to the trailer tongue just below the bridle intersection, or can connect to the ends of the bridle wires if the boat is on the ground. At the end of the pole I fashion a slot that the forestay can knock into above the thimble at the forestay's end, or a hook or shackle to connect to the forestay. The slot arrangement allows the thimble to be free to pin to the bridle wires without having to secure the mast temporarily with the jib halyard, while removing the gin pole.

There are two smallish lines from the end of the pole with snap hooks that connect to the ends of the main beam, to keep the pole tip in plane with the boat's centerline(and the mast). And of course, two trap wires are run to the beam ends as well to keep the mast in that plane.

The effort to build a gin pole will soon be forgotten as you become comfortable raising and lowering your mast safely and easily.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread but thanks davefarmer for the instructions. I work building things out of aluminum every day. Although I have figured out how to step the mast by myself a ginpole sounds like something I have to build.

--
78 Hobie 14 (buried in the garage)
75 Venture 15 (love it)
--

I use a 6 foot step ladder to step my H18 mast. Connect the mast base and and shrouds while resting the upper mast on the top step of the ladder, which I locate maybe 10 feet behind the boat. At this point the helper is simply making sure the mast doesn't blow or slide off the ladder and break the hinge (I learned this the hard way!). Having the mast semi-raised like this makes it much easier to start the lifting process as you no longer have to "navigate" around/under the diamond wires. Once I get underneath the mast and begin lifting, my helper walks to the front and connects the forestay. I did it by myself once with the help of a line and a come-a-long but I won't be doing it again.

BrianCT

I use a 6 foot step ladder to step my H18.

I have used a step ladder when raising the mast as well (on my H17). With the boat on the ground and the top of the mast supported by the ladder, raising the mast is a lot easier because you don't have to bend over nearly as far to pick up or put down the mast. It also makes lowering the mast considerably safer IMO because you don't need someone at the back of the boat to "catch" the mast, you just place the mast on the ladder and then they can walk over to grab the mast after it's safely down.

sm

I use this to get the mast on my H20 up and down. Bottom half speaker stand, top half PVC wrapped in pool noodle. Cheap, fast ( assembles in 30 secs ) and makes life easier. Walk mast back to the stand w helper, pin it, helper goes forward to winch mast while you keep it steady left to right - no need to lift, winch does all the work. Takes all of 4 mins to have mast stepped and pinned. No fuss.


--
Tim Grover
1996 Hobie Miracle 20
Two Hobie 14's
1983 G-Cat Restored
Memphis TN / North Mississippi
--

Would a 2 piece Gin pole work better? As in a triangle? I have a bunch of aircraft aluminum tube 1 1/2 dia.
I was thinking to join both pieces at the top, a hook & loop system for the stay and winch....
My thinking is the triangle would be more stable.
Any opinions, I can step the mast quite easily myself...no wind, on the trailer however I added a winch to the fore mast stand.

--
1975 P16 "Spring Rain"Sail # 642
Home Built 2004 Optimist-Delta "Unity"
So old it has Dino hide for a sail Chrysler "Pirateer"
Steve
Oyama BC
Lat 50.1167 N
Long 119.3667 W
1700 ft
--

here's a system i have for sale. this is the last one i have available.
http://www.thebeachcats.c…ystemfor-beach-cats.html
j

--
Aquacat 12 (sold)...'87 Nacra 5.8 (sold)...'03 Nacra Inter18 (sold)
Venture 15 (sold)....'89 Nacra 5.8 (sold)...'91 Nacra 5.8NA (sold)
'99 Nacra Inter20 (sold)
--

Has anyone ever tried holding both trap wires, placing feet on the front beam & hiking out,(towards the bows), as the other person lifts the mast?
I didn't make that up, it's the technique shown in the Mystere Manual. They were assembling a 5.0XL.
I couldn't manage to create an album with the PDF file.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Edchris177

Has anyone ever tried holding both trap wires, placing feet on the front beam & hiking out,(towards the bows), as the other person lifts the mast?

I've never done this, but I recall seeing it done once by some Tornado sailors. I guess it would work, but I could almost see that causing a problem as the mast gets towards the upright position, if the person hanging off the front is too heavy, it might actually cause the mast to slam forward.

I like the trick with the ladder (or other aft mast stand). I've done this before when solo stepping the mast on my H17 and it makes life a lot easier because you don't need to bend over nearly as far to pick the mast up - it starts out a a relatively comfortable height. It's also nice when lowering the mast because you don't need someone there to "catch" the mast as it comes down, so it's a lot safer (no matter how many times you tell people not to stand under the mast as it comes down, they always seem to want to put themselves under it).

sm

From the photos I saw it seemed that the person hiking back would just step off the beam to the ground as the mast came vertical, then hold it there with the trap lines.
The other person was still on the tramp, holding the mast, they could easily control its movement once near vertical.
Tornado is a tall stick, if it worked there, it should be doable for smaller boats.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Quote

I could almost see that causing a problem as the mast gets towards the upright position, if the person hanging off the front is too heavy, it might actually cause the mast to slam forward.

wouldn't the shrouds hold it from coming forward?

--
1975 P16 "Spring Rain"Sail # 642
Home Built 2004 Optimist-Delta "Unity"
So old it has Dino hide for a sail Chrysler "Pirateer"
Steve
Oyama BC
Lat 50.1167 N
Long 119.3667 W
1700 ft
--

kernunnos

wouldn't the shrouds hold it from coming forward?

I didn't say it would fall forward - just slam forward, against the shrouds as the mast would be accelerating upward.

I have also seen people take a long line (like jib sheet) and tie it to the main halyard. Then one person grabs that line and walks out in front of the boat, pulling the mast up as they go with the other person standing on the tramp guiding the mast up. Once the mast is up, the person holding the line just stays put holding the mast up while the person that was on the tramp jumps down and pins the forestay. A lot of ways to achieve the same thing...

sm

I love it when we over-complicate things-

Quote

From the photos I saw it seemed that the person hiking back would just step off the beam to the ground as the mast came vertical, then hold it there with the trap lines.

You can also just tie an extension line around a trap handle (or both) and not have to step/fall off a beam

if you have crew, why not have BOTH of you on the tramp, and walk the mast up
when it's up... one of you go pin it (or tie if off to your furler ring)

or throw a line around your forestay and have your crew help pull it up

OR trailer your boat the other way and after you secure the mast step/pin ... use the trailer yoke to hold your mast up (like the 10' ladder) - even better, back it down the shoreline and improve the angle/help






Edited by MN3 on Jul 07, 2014 - 11:29 AM.

Mast stepping made easy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO4RxwvjKtM

but you do need a tilt trailer....

Quote

if you have crew, why not have BOTH of you on the tramp, and walk the mast up
when it's up... one of you go pin it (or tie if off to your furler ring)

That's what I do on the 5.0, 5.7 & the 33' stik on the 6XL.
I was looking through the Mystere manual, & saw the idea of hiking back while holding trap lines. I just wondered if anyone had used it, & if it worked.
You guys, with that few feet of steep beach have it the best. Watching Dave drop his mast solo, without much work must make many trailer sailors green with envy.



Edited by Edchris177 on Jul 07, 2014 - 08:10 PM.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

I don't really have a problem physically raising the mast by myself on my P16 with only a mast hinge - except when I get a side stay caught on a transom or a trailer wheel cover, but I am too much of a chicken to walk off the tramp holding the forestay with one hand then catch the bridle and snap it on. I have vivid images of somehow losing my grip on the forestay either while hopping off the tramp and causing one or more unfortunate events within the 30 ft. radius of the boat (or within a 30 ft. radius about 1 rad arc behind the boat, to be more precise), or - if I am VERY lucky - only ruining the mast.

I almost found a solution - my trailer has a mechanical winch attached from it's jet-ski days, and I can raise the mast using the winch cable going through the mast mount cradle. But the P16 mast hinge is only meant to provide a very basic guidance and positioning to the mast base, not enforce the vertical rotation of the mast. So, I still need a person on the tramp guiding the mast even if they don't really need to provide any effort (winch does the lifting). It's not a problem now since I would not go out solo anyway, what with about 3 hrs total sailing experience. But here is the system that I intend to shamelessly copy once I am brave enough to try going solo and not too cheap to splurge $100ish on an electric winch:
http://youtu.be/sdFm_9Q09ac

--
Mike
Prindle 16
Rochester, NY
--

i believe it's only 31' (based on the stock 6.0, and i didn't think/know the xl had a taller stick)

Quote

That's what I do on the 5.0, 5.7 & the 33' stik on the 6XL.

please let me know if i was wrong -

Here is how i raise the mast solo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=733z8c7EUJ8



Edited by kevinbatchelor on Jul 09, 2014 - 01:45 PM.

Quote

i believe it's only 31' (based on the stock 6.0, and i didn't think/know the xl had a taller stick)

You might be right.
I just put the mast back up, (took it down to change furlers), but didn't measure it. Hopefully it won't come down again til end of season.
I have one basement room at the cottage that is 31', & it won't fit on the ceiling rack with the others.
There is a Hobie Bob at the top, that might make it longer than 31'.
I'll measure it next time it comes down.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

you can run a 31' line up the halyard and see (maybe add a foot for the knot)

Quote

I'll measure it next time it comes down.

Quote

There is a Hobie Bob at the top, that might make it longer than 31'.

for sure it adds height



Edited by MN3 on Jul 11, 2014 - 07:29 AM.

I just posted some pics of a few gin poles I've constructed over time.

Dave



Edited by davefarmer on Jul 12, 2014 - 06:18 PM.

Hi all,

Here's my solo mast raising video by request.

https://youtu.be/W4cLtC26aRM

James
Bimare F18 HT
Farrier F25C

Just a non tilt trailer will do for this one I made using your boom. Then follow ez hobie mast stepper manual instructions. Be sure to place side guidelines under the trailer that pull trap wires away from boat to guide mast sway. There's a pic of actual gooseneck fitting in my album. I don't see how anyone can pin the bridle without mechanical tension. I use the winch on trailer and pinning is easy.

--
Goodsailing

Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area
--

kevinbatchelor

Here is how i raise the mast solo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=733z8c7EUJ8Edited by kevinbatchelor on Jul 09, 2014 - 01:45 PM.

If you were to tie the jib sheet to the mast at about chest height, would that eliminate that touchy step of reaching down to grab the sheet?

--
'82 Super Cat 15
Hull #315
Virginia
Previously owned: '70 H14, '79 H16, '68 Sailmaster 26, '85 H14T
--

goodsailing

I don't see how anyone can pin the bridle without mechanical tension.

You need to loosen the rig before you step the mast (actually before you lower the mast from the previous outing) so there is negligible tension on the forestay. Once the mast is up, tighten the shroud(s). You can either have someone hang off the trap wires while you adjust the shroud or you can hoist the boom up with the main halyard, pull it over to one side, and then hold the mast up using the mainsheet blocks while you adjust the shroud solo.

sm

Quote

or you can hoist the boom up with the main halyard, pull it over to one side, and then hold the mast up using the mainsheet blocks while you adjust the shroud solo.

you can also do this with the main sail fully hoisted and attached to the mast and boom - just make sure you are pointed into the wind and be ready to pop the main/travler incase of a strong wind shift (i bet having crew is sounding better and better )



Edited by MN3 on May 18, 2015 - 05:48 PM.

[quote=MN3]

Quote

you can also do this with the main sail fully hoisted and attached to the mast and boom - just make sure you are pointed into the wind and be ready to pop the main/travler incase of a strong wind shift

Yes, I have seen people adjust their rig like this. No, it is not a good idea.

If you pop the main/traveler because of a gust, you're mast will fall down since you're depending on the sail to hold the rig up. If you don't pop the sheet, the boat capsizes on the beach. Either way, there is potential for gear to get broken or people to get injured.

If you want to adjust your rig with the sail hoisted, you're better off loosening all sheets and having someone hang off the trap wires, but even doing it that way is not a great idea. We had someone try to adjust his rig like this during a very windy day at a regatta a couple years ago and damn near laid his rig down on the boats that were parked right next to him (I actually ended up jumping up on his tramp and pushing the mast back up while he was hanging off the trap line on the verge of being pulled over by his rig).

Best to use some common sense and discretion. The rig can easily pull you or the boat over. It's much safer to just drop the mainsail, adjust, and then re-hoist. It really isn't that much extra work.

sm

I never did a thing with the shrouds. Stepped the mast with the boom / winch method I've described. The one thing that made it easier was that I put webbing through the bottom hole of the chain adjuster that's hanging below the furler. I attached this webbing to the boom/ gin pole and when winched down it was more in line so that the side bridles could be pinned. I never had to tighten shrouds. Set for sailing and left there. Longer pins for the side bridles really worked...

--
Goodsailing

Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area
--

Quote

We had someone try to adjust his rig like this during a very windy day at a regatta a couple years ago and damn near laid his rig down on the boats that were parked right next to him

I used this method for years on my h18. - i agree it definatly should not be done in heavy air - but on a light air morning, it's no big deal - I also used to do this while my cat was in the water, so if there was a shift the boat would simply turn

we also do this with the bucket... really not a big deal in light air

As I said at the end of my post - use common sense and discretion.

Common sense dictates that pulling pins on your rigging when your have sails up presents serious SNAFU potential. When weighed against the 30 seconds required to drop the main and 30 seconds to re-hoist, adjusting with the sails hoisted doesn't really make a lot of sense.

By the way, if you have thimbles on the ends of your shrouds (not aircraft swage fittings), you can actually install two pins through the thimble and "walk" the rig up or down to safely adjust your shrouds without risk of dumping the rig.

sm

Quote

By the way, if you have thimbles on the ends of your shrouds (not aircraft swage fittings), you can actually install two pins through the thimble and "walk" the rig up or down to safely adjust your shrouds without risk of dumping the rig.

Nice - never thought of that. Would have come in handy on Saturday's mast stepping with my friend's Mystere we struggled with in a rainstorm.

--
Supercat 15
Windrider 17
Several Sunfish and Sunfish clones
Ratboat built from Zuma and Sunfish parts
Shallow water sailor in the Delaware Bay
--

YMMV - i never dropped my h18 rig, and did this a few 100 times

If I understand correctly... if you adjust the shrouds for sailing prior to stepping your mast, you can't get your mast up? I'm not experiencing this... so why the need to adjust after mast is up and when sail is up? Why not just set them and leave them there.. pending of course your average wind day. (I realize wind is a factor in setting shrouds.)

--
Goodsailing

Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area
--

Quote

so why the need to adjust after mast is up ?

most cats benefit from being rigged tighter than you can possibly do it by hand (with your furler setup)

I use a ring on my furler (called a Portuguese turnbuckle) and i can set my forestay tension (and coincidentally my side shrouds) with the line attached to my forestay,

if your using a winch to tighten your forestay (you mentioned webbing, i don't understand what you mean but you infered you can rig with your winch...)you may be fine, but without a winch ,... you probably are running with your rigging to loose

Quote

Nice - never thought of that. Would have come in handy on Saturday's mast stepping with my friend's Mystere we struggled with in a rainstorm.

doesn't your friends mystere have a ring on the furler (a Portuguese turnbuckle)?
if so there is no need to adjust your stay chain plated unless your wish to change the rake (angle) of your mast

He had bought new chain plates and rigging for the season, and we needed to start fresh, as the dimensions were all just a bit different from the old. Still playing with rake a bit. Probably one more test run to get it close to what he likes best.
Actually, we started out poorly by trying to rush it before the rainstorm hit, and if you don't have all the trap lines and rigging clear of everything, it just gets worse. Sometimes we just don't learn and do it several times instead of once, cleanly. Someone said something about teaching old sailors new tricks....

--
Supercat 15
Windrider 17
Several Sunfish and Sunfish clones
Ratboat built from Zuma and Sunfish parts
Shallow water sailor in the Delaware Bay
--

Quote

f your using a winch to tighten your forestay (you mentioned webbing, i don't understand what you mean but you infered you can rig with your winch...)you may be fine, but without a winch ,... you probably are running with your rigging to loose

I put a shackle on the last hole (bottom) of the chain adjuster that runs through the furler. Through this shackle is tied webbing that attaches to my boom, gin pole. When I ratchet down the boom to raise the mast the forestay is lined up correctly to attach the side bridles. Before I was tying a rope to the eye that hold the plate. When under tension, this caulked the forestay/furler oddly either to left or right making attaching the side bridles difficult. The rope that went around the furler to the gin pole worked to cant the whole assembly. Tying in from bottom eliminates this: Probably should show a pic as this is a change from the pics I posted raising mast with boom etc. Made slight adjustments.

Second note: My side stays adjusters have 7 holes. The shrouds are held in the center hole leaving 3 on top and 3 on bottom. I've sailed it like this and raised and lowered the mast like this and worked OK. How much tighter does it need to be and if I move it down a hole or 2, will I get the other side down equally. Considering the 1000's of steps to get this boat to the water I'd really like eliminating 2 more steps--tightening shrouds too would be ideal which I've done thus far. Will a hole or 2 lower make this boat any faster or perform better from where it is located now? 15kt wind. Where should it be set for 20 kt wind? H18



Edited by goodsailing on May 20, 2015 - 12:25 PM.

--
Goodsailing

Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area
--

Quote

How much tighter does it need to be

i can't answer that... there are tons of variables (shroud and stay length (and amount stretched), tension applied to the forestay when set, etc)

Quote

Will a hole or 2 lower make this boat any faster or perform better from where it is located now? 15kt wind. Where should it be set for 20 kt wind? H18

lowering the holes on the chain plate (ceteris paribus) rakes the mast forward
this changes the CE
this will normally power up the boat a little - and the opposate applies, raising the pins will rake the mast further back - typically depowering a bit

All that being said, some h18 racers rig very loosely in heavy air - i never understood this but have seen it in action - not saying it's fast or right, but definitely done by some

It would seem you want a tad aft rake, if you've ever seen windsurfer masts. Well then we'll just leave it centered... hence eliminating the need to unpin, pin two more additional pins, plus foregoing potential lost of mast due to unpinning shroud for adj. while on the trailer.

--
Goodsailing

Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area
--

General rule of thumb on the H18, you just want the rig "snug". It is a heavy mast and you don't want it flopping around or risking it jumping off the step if you capsize. That said, I have run the rig quite loose in the past and never really noticed any perceptible difference. A looser rig basically just allows the mast to rotate to 90 degrees more easily downwind (really only applicable if you're racing). For fun sailing, just keep it snug.

The reason we have to tighten the rig after the mast is stepped is because most people just manually raise the mast. You're not going to be able to connect the forestay/bridles easily if the rig is tensioned. Much easier to just loosen the rig. I just bring one side shroud up to the top hole and leave the other side alone. This provides plenty of looseness for stepping the mast and since one shroud is not adjusted, I know exactly where to put the one that is adjusted - no guess work. 95% of the time we always run in the same holes. If it's really blowing or really light, we may move one shroud up or down a hole (no the shrouds do not need to be exactly even on both sides).

As for rake settings, just aim for a balanced helm, or slight weather helm. Most of the time, you will barely notice any changes to the rig settings. It is just the nature of the H18 - it is a Cadillac, not a Ferrari.

sm

The only concern I had in winching up the mast with gin pole with shrouds set for sailing was over stressing something, that something would break. That never happened, nor did I notice any overstressing on the way up.

--
Goodsailing

Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area
--

I've just acquired a Prindle 19..the EZ step instructions say that you can put a "simple block & tackle between the lift strap ring on the top of the gin pole & the bridle will provide sufficient lifting power."
Is this going to be harmful to the bow tangs or hulls doing this??