So I got my P16 out on the water for the fourth and possibly final time this season. This time not only did I put it together correctly, I also had pretty reasonable wind - a bit more than a lubber like me would find comfortable. In connection with that, a few observations and additional questions for those in the know.

Observations:

1. Cats are FUN! In anything but the lightest breeze. I was not brave enough to try flying a hull, but I got it to heel pretty good and BOY did it MOVE!

2. A single person cannot right a P16 using a righting line, even if the person is 215lbs. However, it would be no sweat with a righting bucket or if I gained about 30 lbs. more (though with my frame that would preclude me being able to get back onto it once it's righted - unless I manage to bulk up 30 lbs of muscle).

3. Sitting at the back of the tramp and missing a tack (ending up in irons and turned so that you are now on the leeward side) will capsize a cat in decent wind.

Questions:

1. What is the appropriate line thickness for the traveler/mainsheet line(s)? On my P16, the line seems OK for the mainsheet blocks, but the traveler keeps getting stuck. While the mainsheet blocks LOOK to operate fine, I wonder if I simply don't feel the problem because of the 6:1 ratio of the mainsheet blocks. I ask because while I am sure I uncleated the mainsheet before righting the boat, the main appears to have stretched the bracket on the outhaul car to the point that as soon as I got underway after getting righted the main popped out of the outhaul car and got itself nicely wrapped around the mast, battens and all. Took a bunch of fighting to turn the boat into the wind enough that I could even drop the main - it was jammed in the mast groove. I suspect the main did not get released all the way because the line was too thick and it ended up scooping up some water while I righted the boat so the weight of the water deformed the bracket.

2. What is the best way to fix the problem with the outhaul sail bracket being stretched too wide to fit the pin? The pin holding the sail in was just long enough to stay in before the bracket deformed, but now it's too short and the ball does not reach the outside of the bracket. Even after I straighten out the bracket, I don't think I can trust it to not deform again. Can I trust a longer pin to keep the sail in? Do I need to get a new outhaul car or a new bracket? Incidentally, the pin that is now too short has a push-button to release the locking ball. The pins that a guy at West Marine said are replacing the push-button pins are those with simply spring-loaded balls - does anyone trust this kind of a pin? Seems too uncertain to me. On the other hand, it's not like the locking ball proved to be all that effective...

3. Can I trust the main now that the battens had been wrapped around the mast for a while? None of them snapped, but still that is not an expected mode of operation - I wonder if any of them are compromised and will rip my sail in the next puff of wind. Would probably be cheaper to replace the battens than battens AND the sail.

4. I noticed that the boat gets carried by the wind quite well while on its side - even panicked at one point that I might not catch up to it. Are there such things as boat tethers, like retractable cords that clip to the boat and stay on the spool but keep you tethered if you fall off? Or are they more trouble than they are worth? I might add a couple of lines to clip onto the passengers after the boat capsizes just to make sure nobody gets lost.

As always, thanks in advance for any information you can provide - and for reading this far through all my verbal barfage :)

--
Mike
Prindle 16
Rochester, NY
--

Hi Mike, Have righted a H-16 three times in one afternoon in the Straights of Mackinaw at 42 lbs. Can right a P-16 in 15 knots at present weight 135-140. You must get the mast pointing into the wind, released the mainsheet thoroughly, keep the jib sheeted. You should have tipped the boat over on land, thrown the righting line over hull and tied knots every foot with bottom knot when you are very near the ground (and this is where you should be on the water--not at a 45 degree to the hull). So you must have upper arm strength and it takes a minute or so to clear water from sail. And you must do all this immediately--no fooling around catching your breath after a swim. For our Tripoint ocean race out here I carry a 50' floating line with plastic toilet ball on end in a zippered pouch for crew or skipper to disperse if needed. Obviously your mainsheet is too thick. On most boats I get for re-conditioning I use the mainsheet for righting line and replace with 7/16. My race boat uses 3/8. If you're going to use a push button fastpin, you must try to pull it out of shackle both ways before installing or better use regular shackle. Your battens are probably OK but pull them out & check for breaking strands when you bend them. Forget clip lines to passengers--just teach them to move fast. Outhaul bracket is Ok--just bend it back & use shackle to sail clew. In 1974 Jeff Prindle sent us all a list of 5 go-fast for the P-16. # 1 was SAIL MORE. So get a full wet suit and take advantage of that N.Y. Indian summer. Pete

Awesome Mike, I have had mine out for the third time now, sea trials went kinda wonky, the tiller link nuts were loose ( my bad) and it was all I could do to get her back to shore. Once fixed I had no more wind.
Second trip went beautiful, took my Lady for her first ever sail and she tentatively enjoyed the light breezes.
Third was labour day weekend with my son, his first sail, and we met up with Jack B. it was great!!! very light to disappointing wind... see pix in albums... Prindle & Hobie Shuswap lake.
It will get a bit chilly here very soon, the full wet suit is the next order of business.
Thanks Pete for the tip on the main sheet, I have a 1/2 in line now, soon to be smaller.
Oh ya, I bought another boat on the weekend too.. imagine... a Chrysler Pirateer, 13 footer, better to teach my family...came with main, jib & spin....$300.00...what can I say guys.... in the wind is awesome!!!
Steve

--
1975 P16 "Spring Rain"Sail # 642
Home Built 2004 Optimist-Delta "Unity"
So old it has Dino hide for a sail Chrysler "Pirateer"
Steve
Oyama BC
Lat 50.1167 N
Long 119.3667 W
1700 ft
--

Thanks for the info Pete.

I heard that you should get the mast pointing into the wind before righting the boat - I was doing more or less the opposite. I tried walking towards the transom to help the boat rotate like the manual says, but went too far, tipped the cat on its tail, panicked that it would turtle if I tried it again and decided to just go on righting it as it was. Guess I will do that next time.

My righting line is actually long enough and properly knotted - I spent 3-4 minutes hanging horizontally before finally giving up and allowing my nephew to lend a hand. But the mainsheet is certainly too thick - will replace. By the way, what is the consensus on single/split traveler and main? I always kept grabbing the wrong line, so plan to get two separate lines if only to enable them to be different colors. Also, any specific line? Just low stretch nylon from West Marine OK?

As far as sailing through the Indian summer - no thanks. I may muster the courage to go out next weekend, but that's probably it. Not so worried about wet suit - although only have a shorty that is probably 10 years too small - but simply am scared to go out without enough motorboats around that could save my ass if another piece of the cat breaks down. So far, 50% of my sailing outings ended with a malfunction I could not fix on the water. And I am not knowledgeable enough to figure out what parts are critical and how they look when they are near failure.

Also, great idea on a floating line with a toilet ball - definitely getting that as I KNOW I can't steer the cat precisely enough to stop and pick up someone in the water. Heck, even in my Sunfish sailing class I struggled to pick up the "man overboard" bouy in light wind.

Pushpin did NOT come out prior to the capsizing incident - so that would not have helped. At any rate, will replace with a shackle - the extra minute rigging is worth the piece of mind.

--
Mike
Prindle 16
Rochester, NY
--

Ha, Steve - I had exactly the same problem. Lost one of the tiller crossbar bolts the first time out, had to rig it with the halyard to get to shore. Second sail - also ridiculously light wind. And the annoying thing is that when I showed up at the launch the wind blew so hard it locked the car door for me! But by the time I got the boat rigged and in the water the wind died in 15 min and I spent two hours puffing up my cheeks and blowing in my sails. Third time, had a nice sail with 5-6 knot winds that showed me that this boat would be FUN with real winds. Labor day, got excellent wind, zipped up and down Canandaigua lake around here looking for all the world like I knew what I was doing till the wind got too much for me, flipped me over and ripped out my main. Managed to give successful rides to my older boy and two nephews before calling it a day though! They almost did not mind the fact that they were not tubing behind my brother-in-law's motor boat. That boat came in handy though when I lost my main and he towed me in :)

--
Mike
Prindle 16
Rochester, NY
--

mgoltsman

By the way, what is the consensus on single/split traveler and main?

I use one on my F18 so the main sheet and traveler line are different colors. When the spin is up, I put the main down and grab the traveler. What I don't like is that if the two lines come untied and one goes overboard, it's a pain to get it back on board. If I was not on a spin boat I would probably go back to using a continuous line.

By the way I'm a big fan of 5/16" line for the main sheet. Max of 3/8". Smaller diameter line flows through the blocks much easier.

--
Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
--

pbegle

Have righted a H-16 three times in one afternoon in the Straights of Mackinaw at 42 lbs. Can right a P-16 in 15 knots at present weight 135-140. You must get the mast pointing into the wind, released the mainsheet thoroughly, keep the jib sheeted. Pete

mgoltsman

Thanks for the info Pete.

I heard that you should get the mast pointing into the wind before righting the boat - I was doing more or less the opposite. I tried walking towards the transom to help the boat rotate like the manual says, but went too far, tipped the cat on its tail, panicked that it would turtle if I tried it again and decided to just go on righting it as it was. Guess I will do that next time.

My righting line is actually long enough and properly knotted - I spent 3-4 minutes hanging horizontally before finally giving up and allowing my nephew to lend a hand..

Hi guys,
in my humble opinion you should never ever leave a sheet cleated in case
of a capsize.
Main uncleated, jib uncleated and spi uncleated and back in
the snuffer if possible.
And you point the bows into the wind, not the mast.
Its the only way to prevent the cat from running away from you
when you right it. Its almost dead-stil in the water after righting
this way.

I have to solo right my P18-2 four to nine times each season,
sometimes because I am and dumb sailor, sometimes because
I sail it on the edge.
But the way I described it, works for me every time.
With my 200+ Lbs I have a little advantage over you, but then
a P18-2 is a tat bigger.

Regards, André

--
Tornado (80's Reg White)
Prindle 18-2 (sold)
Dart 16 (hired and hooked)
13 mtr steel cutter (sold)
Etap 22, unsinkable sailing pocket cruiser.

Amsterdam, the Netherlands
--

mgoltsman

what is the consensus on single/split traveler and main?

+1 with Pete.
My main is 7\16" dacron tied with a double sheet bend to 5\16" traveler line.
The knot is tied to prevent the traveler car from striking the bolt head on the rear crossbar during a gybe. Look at the traveler track on your crossbar and you'll see what I mean.

Being able to release the traveler line in a blow is desirable, especially if you have 8:1 (or >) main blocks.
The main sheet feeds out much slower than the traveler can move the whole sail, and could be the difference between heeling over vs. getting blown down.
When I see a big puff coming (or my crew warns me) especially downwind, I trade the mainsheet for the traveler line.
I have a bungee in the middle of the tramp that keeps both lines on the tramp all the time.



Edited by klozhald on Sep 04, 2014 - 03:50 PM.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

Andre, In 43 years sailing cats, I've never uncleated jib in a capsize when single handing because of my weight (142 #'s). Never had a boat run away from me though I know it's contrary to accepted opinion. It just comes up quicker. Pete

klozhald

Being able to release the traveler line in a blow is desirable, especially if you have 8:1 (or >) main blocks.
The main sheet feeds out much slower than the traveler can move the whole sail, and could be the difference between heeling over vs. getting blown down.
When I see a big puff coming (or my crew warns me) especially downwind, I trade the mainsheet for the traveler line.
I have a bungee in the middle of the tramp that keeps both lines on the tramp all the time.Edited by klozhald on Sep 04, 2014 - 03:50 PM.

I thought you always wanted to sheet in as tight as you could to control the sail shape? When I have enough wind to push out the traveler with my fat (probably 1/2 or something) control line, I feed out the traveler first and only sheet out if I have to deflect the sail farther. And when I don't have enough wind to deflect the traveler I don't want to sheet out anyway because I don't have any extra wind to spill. Is that not the right approach? I really don't know when to sheet out and when to let out the traveler - Sunfish was so much simpler :) Maybe I ought to go read that cat sailing book I got...

--
Mike
Prindle 16
Rochester, NY
--

You are correct in your theory but it depends where your sailing. If your in the Ocean and the approaching gust is 5-10 knots than you will have to let out about 10' of main sheet to survive. In a lake or an area surrounded by high mountians you can be hit by a 20+ knot gust and (in a split second) only have to let out 2-3' of traveller. The key is knowing if your being lifted or headed when the gust approaches. Being lifted you will want to immediately head into the wind not to be knocked down. If your headed your jib will start to luff but your main will still be powered up.
Next time you go out play with all your sail adjustments at all angles of the wind to get familiar with your boat and how it reacts. Bring someone to steer so you can just play with the sails.


--
David
Nacra 5.5SL
Nacra 5.2 (sold)
San Diego, CA
--

Definitely time to go read that cat book. Maybe it will tell me how to detect approaching gusts before they hit you, or at least the difference between being "headed" and "lifted". But yes, we are freshwater all the way here in Rochester, NY. I suppose Ontario can act as poor man's ocean - which is why I am too scared to go there yet. Maybe next season :)

--
Mike
Prindle 16
Rochester, NY
--

to each their own but i would NEVER right about again without furling the jib (or uncleating it)

i also prefer to unhook the main from the boom if possible - otherwise both sails will "hold" water and make righting (for me) much harder

One VERY bad day, i was sailing out of the mouth of clearwater pass , was on the wire and sailed into a windshift. and the boat capsized ontop of me (didn't hit me but was not a typical capsize).

it was taking longer than usual to right the boat (mostly due to other sailors "help", that was preventing me from getting my righting bag setup) and it was not staying in the right position for righting (bows into the wind).

once righted the jib filled with air and the boat took off like a rocket (this is a pretty common occurrence with the jib still sheeted)... dragging me by the righting line

boat was headed right for a swim area marker (think telephone pole in the water)- i had to pull my self back to the boat via the righting line, get onboard only to find my main & traveler sheets were wrapped around my crossbar in a way that i could neither sheet out the main nor steer ... i was scrambling to get it unwrapped and not hit the pilling / massive rocks on the coast

at the last second i was able to free the line and head off... I was so exhausted from the ordeal i couldn't handle sailing at regular "speed" so i furled the jib and limped home.

the ride home was terrible. the waves had kicked up and my spin pole/bag was getting stuffed into the wave in front of me, and as i topped the wave it would spring up and shoot the water in the air. showering down on me the entire way home...

I almost quit sailing that day...

Quote

I've never uncleated jib in a capsize when single handing because of my weight (142 #'s). Never had a boat run away from me though I know it's contrary to accepted opinion. It just comes up quicker. Pete

MN3

i also prefer to unhook the main from the boom if possible - otherwise both sails will "hold" water and make righting (for me) much harder

When my main unhooked itself after righting the boat into a beam reach position (bows pointed across the wind) and with only partially uncleated main (and probably cleated jib), I couldn't for the life of me get the main to hook back in. It rested itself on the sidestay and flailed around wildly. I could grab it and pull it in with my finger, but never enough to be able to thread the pin through it again. At any rate, I would imagine re-hooking the main in any kind of wind would be a pain. They say the boat should point itself into the wind if you let go of sail and rudder, but it seemed to go into a run for me. Maybe my mast is too far forward? I heard mast rake has to do with this somehow...

--
Mike
Prindle 16
Rochester, NY
--

I can see it being a huge problem if you are in a beam reach

where either of your rudders in the water?

PS my mast is 90* (very forward)

quote=mgoltsman]

MN3

i also prefer to unhook the main from the boom if possible - otherwise both sails will "hold" water and make righting (for me) much harder

When my main unhooked itself after righting the boat into a beam reach position (bows pointed across the wind) and with only partially uncleated main (and probably cleated jib), I couldn't for the life of me get the main to hook back in. It rested itself on the sidestay and flailed around wildly. I could grab it and pull it in with my finger, but never enough to be able to thread the pin through it again. At any rate, I would imagine re-hooking the main in any kind of wind would be a pain. They say the boat should point itself into the wind if you let go of sail and rudder, but it seemed to go into a run for me. Maybe my mast is too far forward? I heard mast rake has to do with this somehow...[/quote]

mgoltsman

I thought you always wanted to sheet in as tight as you could to control the sail shape?

In 5 knots and under, you want a loose mainsheet that lets the sail curve a bit, especially down wind. In light air, the apparent wind close to the water is nearer parallel to your direction of travel than the wind further up your sail.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

MN3

where either of your rudders in the water?

I think one of them got unlatched from all the excitement. Still in the water, but dragging behind. Do you suppose that could have given the boat the wrong weather trim?

--
Mike
Prindle 16
Rochester, NY
--

If it works four you, Pete, thats fine. I'm a only into cats for 4 years
and saw my P18-2 sail away from me the first year.
Luckily it ran on a sandy beach, and I only had to swim 150 yards.
From that time, I right my cat the way an expert learned me and I've not been
in trouble since. ( except for fatigue, when I went over 4 times in one
afternoon )
So, snap hackle on the boom for quick release, enough slack on the jib sheet
to release it from the block while you're in the water, spi back into the snuffer
and bow into the wind.
I sail on a lake, where gusts can be quite horrendous.

Regards, André

pbegle

Andre, In 43 years sailing cats, I've never uncleated jib in a capsize when single handing because of my weight (142 #'s). Never had a boat run away from me though I know it's contrary to accepted opinion. It just comes up quicker. Pete

--
Tornado (80's Reg White)
Prindle 18-2 (sold)
Dart 16 (hired and hooked)
13 mtr steel cutter (sold)
Etap 22, unsinkable sailing pocket cruiser.

Amsterdam, the Netherlands
--

mgoltsman

2. A single person cannot right a P16 using a righting line, even if the person is 215lbs. However, it would be no sweat with a righting bucket or if I gained about 30 lbs. more (though with my frame that would preclude me being able to get back onto it once it's righted - unless I manage to bulk up 30 lbs of muscle).

I can see that other have answered many of your questions, but I do feel compelled to respond to this...

My 115LB wife could easily right our Prindle 16 by herself in a 10 kt breeze, and I use to single hand sail all thie time in 10 to 15 plus in the ocean.. never once had a problem getting it back up..

I think I was weighing in at 190 LBS when this was taken



Pay close attention to the advice given here at your weight there should be no problem with a Prindle 16



Edited by JohnES on Sep 05, 2014 - 06:02 PM.

--
John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
--

i forgot to mention this part....

step 1 is set the anchor
that will stop you from drifting and automatically point your bows into the wind and the right position (assuming your anchor line is tied to the right spot)

then you can uncleat the sail and it isn't an issue

However if a rudder/ dagger /centerboard(s) falls into the water ... that can cause problems (boat dancing around or even sailing)

Quote

I think one of them got unlatched from all the excitement. Still in the water, but dragging behind. Do you suppose that could have given the boat the wrong weather trim?

MN3

i forgot to mention this part....

step 1 is set the anchor

Wait - WHAT?!! An ANCHOR? You put anchors on 16' cats?

--
Mike
Prindle 16
Rochester, NY
--

No anchor for me, I am sailing in 600 feet of water. I was thinking a sea anchor though, only need a short line & it folds up nice when not in use.

--
1975 P16 "Spring Rain"Sail # 642
Home Built 2004 Optimist-Delta "Unity"
So old it has Dino hide for a sail Chrysler "Pirateer"
Steve
Oyama BC
Lat 50.1167 N
Long 119.3667 W
1700 ft
--

Whew, that makes more sense! I knew it could not be a regular anchor! Loop the line for that around the base of the mast, then?

--
Mike
Prindle 16
Rochester, NY
--

My righting line goes down through a grommet, figure 8 above, clove hitch on the dolphin striker, I would use that I think. I have used it for a tow.

--
1975 P16 "Spring Rain"Sail # 642
Home Built 2004 Optimist-Delta "Unity"
So old it has Dino hide for a sail Chrysler "Pirateer"
Steve
Oyama BC
Lat 50.1167 N
Long 119.3667 W
1700 ft
--

an anchor is most certainly on my boat in EVERY occasion unless i am racing (and i hate racing so that is rare)

what would you do if you want/need to stop to help rescue another boater in need that involved leaving your boat (i.e. rescuing someone drowning or a flipped boat that was being pushed into a seawall) ?

what would you do in heavy air if you flip and the current is taking you for a ride out to a storm (or out the pass of a bay into rough seas)?

what would you do if your crew gets hit in the head with a boom (or other) falls overboard and you need to jump off the save their life?

what would you do if you want to stop and have lunch on an island but don't want to drag your boat up a rocky shoreline?

YES carry an anchor on a 16' boat. or a sea anchor at the very least.....
I can't tell you how many stories of boats/crew getting seperated in heavy air after a capsize cause the boat on it's side is pushed away (from the wind) much faster than you can swim

mgoltsman

MN3

i forgot to mention this part....
step 1 is set the anchor

Wait - WHAT?!! An ANCHOR? You put anchors on 16' cats?

Quote

Whew, that makes more sense! I knew it could not be a regular anchor! Loop the line for that around the base of the mast, then?

this works for a righting line, but it not optimal for a tow/anchor line

you should make a bridal that makes a "Y"

I attach mine at the bow tangs and store it in my front tramp (went into my regular tramp pocket before i had a front tramp)

So how much line do you have for the anchor? I am sure it does not have to be anything heavy, but still, a 100' of line will take up quite a bit of space. And how big an anchor - something small I presume? Any specific way to tie it to the boat - hook it under the tramp laces? One of the annoying things I am finding about a cat is that the tramp is not a good way to stow much of anything.

Hey, here's a question - if you need to navigate a channel maybe 200' long, or something like that - can you use the anchor for navigation? Toss it thirty feet forward and pull the boat up, then toss it again and pull the boat another 30'? I found that I was not good enough to paddle alone against the wind, even with jib uncleated and the main dropped - got pushed back into the channel and ended up needing a tow out to open water.

--
Mike
Prindle 16
Rochester, NY
--

Quote

So how much line do you have for the anchor? I am sure it does not have to be anything heavy, but still, a 100' of line will take up quite a bit of space. And how big an anchor - something small I presume?

I have about 30' of stretch nylon anchor line (i can tie a loop in it to use less rode) that is attached to about 4' of steel chain which is attached to a Fortress #7 danfort alum anchor. this is a decent amont of line for the very shallow waters i sail in but isn't enough in a real blow

Quote

Any specific way to tie it to the boat - hook it under the tramp laces? One of the annoying things I am finding about a cat is that the tramp is not a good way to stow much of anything.

smaller anchors can usually fit in the tramp pocket of most small boats but they hog up all the room and eventually rip the pocket out - i would secure a permanent bridal to the bow tangs and store the anchor somewhere/anywhere close to the mast. use good line to secure it (not bungies as they all eventually fail and you really don't want to accidental drop an anchor .... ever)

I used to carry mine in a ... lol ... small travel carry-on bag that was lashed to my h16 front beam. It protected my crew / self and boat from the perils of having a pointy / dangerous piece of metal on deck and made it pretty easy to stow/use. It lasted a season or 2. I now have a anchor pocket sown into the top of my front tramp

Quote

- can you use the anchor for navigation? Toss it thirty feet forward and pull the boat up, then toss it again and pull the boat another 30'

Yes it a method called "kedging" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kedge

So... 600 feet of water avg. Steep rock vertical from the water...some areas are shallow eough to throw the anchor, most don't. Google maps Shuswap Lake BC.
Hence the sea anchor.
I like your idea of the bridal, there are folding anchors as well.
Great stuff guys.

--
1975 P16 "Spring Rain"Sail # 642
Home Built 2004 Optimist-Delta "Unity"
So old it has Dino hide for a sail Chrysler "Pirateer"
Steve
Oyama BC
Lat 50.1167 N
Long 119.3667 W
1700 ft
--

simple, just carry 601 foot of anchor line!

just kidding, obviously an anchor wont work in 600' on a small cat, BUT if there are shallow areas, it still may be a piece of safety equip

folding anchors are not optimal (at least around here)
in a real blow they can give (release) much easier than most solid anchors (have seen a guy with a h17 break free several times without wind shifts)

kernunnos

So... 600 feet of water avg. Steep rock vertical from the water...some areas are shallow eough to throw the anchor, most don't. Google maps Shuswap Lake BC.
Hence the sea anchor.
I like your idea of the bridal, there are folding anchors as well.
Great stuff guys.