I was in a regatta this weekend and the rest of the pack kept pulling away from me beating to wind unless I headed off slightly (about 5-8 degrees) to power up the sails. As soon as I was up to speed I would try to get on course with them and I started pinching again loosing speed.

I’m wondering if I do not have my boat setup as best as can be and if anyone has any tips I can try?

Thanks in advance!



Edited by rondog on Sep 22, 2014 - 03:03 AM.

--
Ron
Big Bear Lake, Ca.
1990 Hobie 18 Worlds
1988 Mac 26Dagger
--

My thoughts, in order of importance:

1) Put telltales on your jib at 1/3 and 2/3 height about one telltale length back from the luff (front). Set up the boat before the start so that both telltales break at the same time (constant angle of attack). Concentrate on keeping the leeward telltale streaming and the windward telltale just breaking. You should spend 85% of your time watching the telltales.

2) Sheet in the main slightly. Unless it's really blowing you want the traveller right up.

3) How much do you weigh? Minimum weight is 295 pounds. If you are much heavier than this you must sail lower to make more power to push the extra water out of the way.

4) Change the mast rake, depending on your answer to question 3. More rake (2 or three holes on forestay) makes the boat point higher for equal weight, less rake (2 or 4 holes) powers the boat up for heavier teams.

5) We always used to set the side stay tension tight. Put somebody sizeable on the wire, on land, and lower the pin. We used to have that person "bounce" and the pin person pop the pin in at the bottom of the bounce.

6) Set the downhaul tight. Get right up by the mast and lunge downwards and then cleat it off.

7) Make sure the outhaul is quite tight for upwind. "Bowstring" it by cleating it, pulling sideways in the middle, then taking the slack out and cleating it. Repeat as necessary.

When you are just sailing, if you have a reliable training partner, point the same direction as them and then set the:

traveller
jib sheet tension
main sheet tension
downhaul
outhaul
go back to shore and reset the rake (repeat as necessary)

At a regatta you might ask somebody to come out ten minutes early and go through all that to make sure you know what your settings are going to be. A mark on the jib sheet and mainsheet is handy, particularly the jib sheet since you want your crew to reset it exactly after each tack.

Concentrate on keeping the leeward telltale streaming and the windward telltale just breaking. You should spend 85% of your time watching the telltales. I'm pretty sure this is your issue. You have to sail the boat down the groove as it shifts and wanders. The groove is only about 5 degrees wide.

Good luck! I just love sailboat racing.

want to point higher, go faster and have more responsive controls without improving your sailing skills at all?

get new sails
epoxy and fair your boards (center/rudder) if needed
drop 15-25 lbs
put concrete in your competitors hulls



Edited by MN3 on Sep 22, 2014 - 09:20 AM.

Ron,

First thing is WHO was pointing higher? Was it other Hobie 18's?

If so, then the advice above is good especially new sails.Make sure your rotation limiter is aligned with the boom as much as possible upwind.

If it was more modern boats with the newer extremely high aspect daggers and rudders and sail shapes then you shouldn't try to point with them.

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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Great info here guys! Thanks! I'll consider all the above while learn and look over my boat and compare notes.

Damon, yes they were walking away from me! Got my boat from someone who used it on the ocean only so boat was setup for heavy winds I'm finding out. Loose stays & diamond wires etc...





Edited by rondog on Sep 24, 2014 - 02:18 PM.

--
Ron
Big Bear Lake, Ca.
1990 Hobie 18 Worlds
1988 Mac 26Dagger
--

go over all the basics.
- rudder trim and alignment
- mast rake for weight, waves
- compare to another well sailed hobie 18
- need a good jib to point.... then it's got to be trimmed correctly..but not overtrimmed.
- main, trimmed too.
- faces down, rears up... more up... more... get it?
- less weight, better pointing.

you should be able to stay in or with the fleet (including new boats) to the "A" mark...
but after they launch the spin and go downwind..that's the last you'll see of them.



Edited by robpatt on Sep 26, 2014 - 09:11 AM.

Bitchen info!!!!!

--
Jim
New Orleans

'83 H18 SX mods 2013 -
'65 Lavey Craft 2005 -
'69 Cal 25 1997 - 2001
'80 P16 1980 - 1996
--

Do not pull the outhaul in "bow string" tight. You want to maintain draft in the bottom of your sail. I would recommend allowing the foot of the sail to blow off the boom about 4-6" at it's deepest point as a good all around upwind setting. Also, do not point the rotator in line with the boom. That is WAY under-rotated. The rotator arm should point somewhere between the outboard corner of the rear crossbar and the shroud.

If you're having trouble pointing and maintaining the same speed as your competitors, my first guess, without seeing you sail, would be that you are under-sheeted. Place a set of telltails on your mainsail in the second and third panel from the top. These telltails will tell you how much twist you have in the top of your main and if you can sheet in more.

sm

Here’s a shot somewhere in-between a close reach and being close hauled. To me it looks like I have too much twist and am spilling wind. I was going to try to lessen the rake a notch and see if I get a better sail shape and hopefully it makes a difference.

http://i328.photobucket.c…uchtwist_zpse0ff3735.jpg

Ps, I know about the wrinkles in the luff. The downhaul won't synch all the way because the boltrope near the foot keeps jamming up against the helper and this time I didn't catch it. Most times I do though.



Edited by rondog on Sep 28, 2014 - 06:45 AM.

--
Ron
Big Bear Lake, Ca.
1990 Hobie 18 Worlds
1988 Mac 26Dagger
--

Here's some reading material. if the link doesn't work, search "Hobie University"
http://www.hobieclass.com…nloads/hobieu/HobieU.pdf

I can't see the tell-tails in the photo but you are under sheeted for close hauled.

Downhaul.

--
Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
--

Another link on telltails
http://www.thebeachcats.c…telltales?Article66.html

--
Jack B
Hobie 17
BC, Canada
--

rondog

The downhaul won't synch all the way because the boltrope near the foot keeps jamming up against the helper and this time I didn't catch it.

Are you using the stock 3-1 downhaul with the cleat on the mast? The easiest way to vastly improve your downhaul is with the "Power Downhaul" 5:1 system, it can be added without any modifications to the boat.
http://www.murrays.com/07-2087.html

What condition is your sail compared to the boats that were pointing higher?

Fix whatever it is that's giving you problems at the foot of the sail, not sure what the "helper" is, crew?

The thoughts on amount of mast rotation upwind have changed over the years. When catamaran sailing in the '90's we pointed the H18 limiter at the shroud, but later the Australians started rotating the mast to be more in line with the boom. This makes perfect sense if you think about how that produces a smoother entry and lets the wing shape of the mast contribute to the sail area.

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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The boat came with a really nice Harken 6:1 DH.

The sail feels really stiff so I'm assuming not much use on it. No repairs, fading, or loose threads anywhere. Really nice condition! Probably more so than the 1980's boats I was trying to catch.

Sorry, "helper" couldn't think of the word "sail feeder" http://www.murrays.com/50-80100501.html
The boltrope clears the "feeder" by 8" then you have to pull it back down through the feeder and this is where it catches and usually bunches up. These things aren't really everything they're cut out to be...

I played with the mast rotation a little bit and didn't notice a whole lot. If anything I felt there was a happy medium somewhere between all the way out and all the way in.

--
Ron
Big Bear Lake, Ca.
1990 Hobie 18 Worlds
1988 Mac 26Dagger
--

rondog

The boltrope clears the "feeder" by 8" then you have to pull it back down through the feeder and this is where it catches and usually bunches up. These things aren't really everything they're cut out to be...

I agree, you might want to lose that, no need to cause yourself problems. I've never had one, so can't judge, but I know you can raise the sail without one.

rondog

I played with the mast rotation a little bit and didn't notice a whole lot. If anything I felt there was a happy medium somewhere between all the way out and all the way in.

Realized that you aren't going to be able to tell a difference on any particular small adjustment like that unless you are racing side by side with another stock well-sailed Hobie 18. Even then we are talking about a a 2 or three boat lengths to windward at A mark, which is enough to win a race but probably not enough to "feel".

Tuning your boat without a match race partner is very difficult. Try having your crew read your speed from a GPS while you point as high as you think is correct. You may find you are pinching, footing, or over trimming sails more than you think.

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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Ron, WE will have three P-18's and three H-18's on the beach in Big Bear next year for a 7 Regatta series with 2 throw outs. Sol Cat 18's & Nacra 5.2 invited also--everybody racing even. Plenty of opportunity to tune! Pete

rondog

Sorry, "helper" couldn't think of the word "sail feeder" http://www.murrays.com/50-80100501.html
The boltrope clears the "feeder" by 8" then you have to pull it back down through the feeder and this is where it catches and usually bunches up. These things aren't really everything they're cut out to be...

That thing is worse than useless. Take it off, throw it away, and use the mounting screws with silicone to seal the mast back up.

--
Jeff
Houston TX
1986 Hobie 18 Sail# 13031
--

Have you tried putting decals on your boat? Get an "R" pr "V-TEC" sticker and slap it on. I put a "Harken" sticker on my trailer, and picked up 33.2 hp.

--
Jeff
Houston TX
1986 Hobie 18 Sail# 13031
--

Great Big Black Sticker says "Hobie Cat"!

That should be enough.



--
Ron
Big Bear Lake, Ca.
1990 Hobie 18 Worlds
1988 Mac 26Dagger
--

rondog

Here’s a shot somewhere in-between a close reach and being close hauled. To me it looks like I have too much twist and am spilling wind. I was going to try to lessen the rake a notch and see if I get a better sail shape and hopefully it makes a difference.

WAY under-sheeted. This is far and away the primary problem. Again, put two pair of telltails in the upper panels of your main sail. They will tell you tons about how much more you can or can not sheet in.

You are also sailing the boat too flat. You want to try to keep the windward hull skimming if possible or at least have the leeward hull significantly lower than the windward hull. In light air, the crew will sit on the leeward hull or right at the edge of the tramp where it meets the hull and right up against the front crossbar. Skipper will sit either on the tramp just to windward of the mast or on the hull. In that picture, it looks like there would have been enough wind for you to fly the hull if you were sheeted in more heavily. Also, as you noted, the down haul is not tight enough. A couple little wrinkles in the leading edge are ok in light wind, but you've got some large wrinkles that need to be taken out. As said above, remove the sail feeder - it does more harm than good.

sm

Dogboy is right. Way under sheeted. No where near enough down haul. Get forward, get crew leeward and it looks like you have little to no batten tension. Been sailing a Hobie 18 since 1992 so I know a little, not a lot. that is out of whack by a bunch. HTH, Richard.

--
Lake Perry KS
H-18
N-5.5 UNI +spin
--

robpatt

go over all the basics.
- rudder trim and alignment
- mast rake for weight, waves
- compare to another well sailed hobie 18
- need a good jib to point.... then it's got to be trimmed correctly..but not overtrimmed.
- main, trimmed too.
- faces down, rears up... more up... more... get it?
- less weight, better pointing.

you should be able to stay in or with the fleet (including new boats) to the "A" mark...
but after they launch the spin and go downwind..that's the last you'll see of them.Edited by robpatt on Sep 26, 2014 - 09:11 AM.

You aren't sticking with the new boats to the A mark on a Hobie 18. Sorry, it just isn't going to happen. My target upwind speed (not VMG, just velocity) on the H18 was 9 kts. My target upwind velocity on the F18 is 13 kts and we are 10 degrees higher than the H18. That was with a decent mainsail, new mylar jib, EPO rudders and good crew work on the H18. In a blow, the H18 can keep up with the modern rides on a jib reach, where the overlapping jib helps the 18 and the rigs on the new boats can hinder a little. Assuming flat water. Otherwise, all bets are off, crew work is #1 followed by the much more tunable, planning hull forms of the modern rides.

The O.P never said what boats he was targeting, other H18's I presume? In very broad terms, more rake generally gives you higher pointing at the sacrifice of power. There are tradeoffs, and the racers have already found the sweet spot for that boat, so why not use their settings? Besides crew work, sails, and foils, you also have platform stiffness issues with these older rides. Some are stiffer and lighter than others. Beach boats tend to be heavier and less stiff than well cared for lake boats. Adds up when racing! Really the key is to have fun!!!

Yes... I have been in the mix with new boats at the A mark. Several times at OSYC, at Pensacola Mid-Winters, and again off Key Sailing; I don't remember what regatta it was.

A good aggressive start, on port if you need... sail your boat, and be smart and yes, I've beat F-18s and F-16s to the A mark. After that, however like I said, it's over for the rest of the race when they pop the chute. Boat has to be trimmed right, rudders, details, etc, stern up, weight positioned right, and maybe some of the others were green on their forumla boats, but I'm telling you. Happy Sailing.

Here's what worked well for my Hobie-18 in mixed fleet racing (and a bit heavy crew). Worked for me on my boat, may run counter to other advice, and of course your mileage may vary...

I set my spreaders forward and my diamonds tight. Not tight enough to pre-bend the mast on their own, but tight enough to keep the mast in column side to side. Then used the downhaul (upgraded to max class legal) to bend/depower. This will be controversial - the traditional H-18 mast set up uses soft wires to allow the mast to bend sideways that with rotation flattens the sail (and the sails are not cut for a pre-bent mast). The traditional method will allow the main/mast to close off the slot. Try both ways, wee what works for you. Once I did the tight wire thing I never went back (again tight, but not pre-bend tight).

Mast rake - always forward unless you are light and/or it's blowing. Rake may help a bit upwind but it kills your power, especially downwind. Rotation for upwind somewhere between the shroud and rear beam (look up the back side of the sail and see how the mast and sail blend, adjust).

Jib cars - all the back when going upwind. All the way forward for downwind. For other points of sail adjust as mentioned before - to get an break between upper and lower telltales. Tweak that advice a little if your jib is breaking unevenly top to bottom, but it was an easy rule of thumb for us. Moving the cars back helps the jib twist off opening the slot and improving flow on the main. I've seen articles suggest the opposite for upwind, and they even show a top-down diagram on how the job moves outboard with the car forward - but the picture only represents the foot of the sail - doing that that tightens the leach of the sail and cuts flow through the upper part. Flow on the back of the main is king, don't hurt it with the jib.

Outhaul - tighter than downwind, but leave some shape in the bottom of the sail.

Downhaul - tighter than downwind, but adjust to appropriate power. If you don't have an upgraded downhaul, get one.

Main - tight, but be very careful you don't stall the top of the sail. The upper outer telltales must be flowing, and if you have leach telltales up high they should mostly flow too. If they are not you are over sheeted and loosing power. Often you will sheet harder as the wind builds, ease slightly in the lulls.

Weight - forward. In light stuff crew on the lee foredeck kind of forward. The 18 is a tail dragger, get the bows down and sterns out. I'm also convinced those big tall flat sides of the bows kind of worked like a bit of a center board going upwind - make them work for you.

Rudders - if you have the standard Hobie molded bendy plastic rudders get rid of them as soon as you can. Any of the fiberglass or carbon reinforced racing rudders from Hobie is a great improvement, find a set of EPOs if you can (not sure what the current Hobie offering is). Just get rid of the bendy ones.

Some things to try...