When it's blowing i set the traveler out a few inches but it makes it hard to sheet in and out, because when i sheet in the traveler moves instead of shortening the mainsheet, resulting only in a waste of energy. I discussed this topic a while ago and even modifyied my traveler set up, which worked well except that it's more complicated to tack. To my needs it's still an improvement but I'm thinking in other options. One is to change the focus and drive with the traveler instead of the mainsheet. Set the twist with the mainsheet and handle the gusts with the traveler. I tried it but i realize that i would need more purchase to make it practical, which is totally possible. So the questions is if some of you focus more on the traveler than the mainsheet to handle gusts. On the previous discussion on this topic somebody suggested it and it makes sense. On that discussion i also learned that maybe the problem is that i sheet too far back (my crew won't take the main, it's my task). I tested moving a bit forward but it doesn't work.
I sail a N5.5 and don't race, just play around.
Thanks.



Edited by Andinista on Dec 16, 2014 - 05:48 AM.

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So the questions is if some of you focus more on the traveler than the mainsheet to handle gusts.

not 100% sure what the question is ....

but i do not ever use the traveler instead of the main (i do travel out more and more as the wind picks up above 18knots)

mostly because if i did use the traveler and not the main ... i would wear out my traveler track. if it is sheeted tight and i gybe, or travel out ... i literally sharpen the x track (part of my beam) until it is razor sharp. I have cut myself severely on it before, and now i use sandpaper to keep it rounded and dull

Yes, you can sail like that. It was SOP for the 18 Squares of old. Randy Smyth once told my wife: "Just shackle the boom to the traveller..."

What happens when you sail that way is that instead of increasing camber by changing the sheeting as the gust hits, you drop the trav and immediately change the angle of attack. Recovery from the gust is faster. Playing the trav has become a lost art.

I believe, like the NACRA Squares, your 5.5 has an eyestrap in the center of your beam. Instead of just dead-ending your traveller line to that eyestrap, install a block. Dead-end the line, bring it to the traveller, back through the block and back to the traveller for a 2:1 purchase, and then playing the traveller becomes easier.



Edited by jaybird1111 on Dec 16, 2014 - 07:12 AM.

I have always played the traveler to de-power in gusty conditions. Its a personal preference and works well for me. My crew is not strong enough to play the main, so I will set the main based on sustained wind speed. I can then find a good compromise between quickly de-powering (one arm length of traveler usually does the trick) and feathering the boat to maintain optimum upwind speed. The stock 2:1 traveler is enough purchase for me but I have found that I much prefer the cleat fixed to the rear beam instead of on the traveler car. Over the years we have also tried playing the downhaul to de-power in gusts. I have never been very successful with this technique. I know others swear by it. I have had no issues with my tracks wearing out but do replace the balls in the traveler car every few years since the traveler needs to run nice and free under full load.

The problem with playing the traveler is that changes in traveler position really don't effect the CE of the rig. You just end up backwinding the main and cutting off the slot between the jib. You also end up having to make fairly large adjustments and this can be inefficient and tiring because of the lack of purchase in the traveler system.

If you have a good crew, the best way to moderate the power in the rig is by adjusting the downhaul (the system should be adjustable from both sides of the trapeze). When you tighten the downhaul, you bend the mast which flattens the rig and drops the CE. Since the rig gets flatter, it actually becomes more efficient so you don't need to bear off you literally just drive through the puff. Since the top of the rig twists open, the CE lowers and this actually allows you to take advantage of the extra power and again, you will drive through the puff maintaining speed and you will actually point higher. We sailed like this all the time on the H20 and still do to a large extent on the H18. We keep the traveler centered and only drop it down when we're overpowered at max downhaul.

sm

Interesting. If I understood correctly, you are saying that the effect of the downhaul is not just depowering the sail, but doing it selectively: more in the upper part than the lower part, therefore it is not just the effect of the less power but also a lower lever arm because the force is applied further down. It makes sense.. I never thought about that. I guess it more noticeable in the square tops that in the tradtional sails. Mine is something in between..

Even with a good crew I could never make playing the downhaul work well. Just too much friction between the luff rope and the mast track. It would de-power fine, but I could not power back up. Maybe some serious lube on the luff rope and mast could help.

This was the fifth season for us aboard the ARC22, and the second one focussing on using the traveller to control the power of the main. All said above about depowering the mainsail with the downhaul is valid, but this boat responds to the traveller much faster.

We currently have three to one purchase on the traveller car, which is not quite enough for a main this big(38.5' mast!), so we're switching off between skipper and crew regularly. But we absolutely love running the boat this way, it allows precise control of the power, making it easy to keep the windward hull just clear of the water. Not only is it quick to respond to the puffs, but it's much faster to sheet back in. And usually we are just sheeting in and out an arms length, so it is feasible for the helm to run it. This boat also has a lever arm forward of the rear beam that the tiller extension attaches to(like the RC27), which allows the skipper to drive sitting fwd of the crew, who is right at the rear beam running the traveller, a very direct pull.

I'm currently setting up an SC20 with a similar layout, but with four to one purchase. The issue with the multiple purchase arrangements is handling all the line, not only on deck, but the line needs to be retracted on the leeward side as the car is eased, so the line needs to run very freely thru all the blocks. Both boats use a continuous line, that runs fwd to blks at the main beam just inside the hulls. These blks are on a very long bungie that runs between them under the tramp(to the rear beam and back fwd), which takes up the slack, but allows the crew to take the line with him out on the trap. The traveller purchase leaves the rear beam near centerline, so it's a clear shot to the crew whether he is fore or aft of the skipper. I'll report back next season on whether or not this system works as intended.

Both of these systems allow windward sheeting, which has proven really useful in light air, giving a few more degrees of height to windward, as well as popping the hull free when there's just barely enough pressure to fly a hull.

Dave

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Dead-end the line, bring it to the traveler, back through the block and back to the traveler for a 2:1 purchase, and then playing the traveler becomes easier.

Solo, on the 5.7 I often find myself adjusting the traveler, mostly in gusty conditions. I changed it to a 3:1 system by shackling a block to the eye strap on the rear beam. Deadend at the cars eye strap,(where the lower mainblock is attached), through the block on beam, then back through the rollers & cleat on the car.
The 3:1 makes for a much more precise & easily controlled car, with not much extra line lying around.
When on the wire solo, in a blow, trying to stay blunt end forward, shiny side up, it is easy to keep hold of the main sheet & tiller, while still being able to play the traveler. The real advantage is bringing it in.

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When you tighten the downhaul, you bend the mast which flattens the rig and drops the CE. Since the rig gets flatter, it actually becomes more efficient so you don't need to bear off you literally just drive through the puff.

This worked well on the 20' Mystere, with a square top, 10:1 & bendy mast. You could look up the stick & see it bend, & feel the power drop as the line was played, (I soloed it much of the time & so still constantly traveled out-or went swimming). On my older pinhead Nacras, (same as Andinistas) I think attempting to pull that hard on the sail would pull it apart. Those masts are relatively stiff.

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I have had no issues with my tracks wearing out but do replace the balls in the traveler car every few years

MN3's system does not use the common Harken car/torlon balls. His car utilizes steel wheels, sort of an inverted "V" shape, running against the track. I think the wheels are harder than the track, so they wear it to a sharp edge.



Edited by Edchris177 on Dec 16, 2014 - 03:27 PM.

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Why A cats have curved tracks? Is it not for the same reason?

Andinista

Why A cats have curved tracks? Is it not for the same reason?

The A-cats use a curved track in part because A) money is no object and B) they get a small trimming advantage and C) they do not have head sails so the refined trim on the mainsail is more important and D) the curved track does not get in the way of the crew (because there is none). Even on the A-cat, though, they aren't actively playing the traveler. It helps a little when you round the top of the course because you can roughly set the mainsheet tension and not have it tighten as you ease the traveler....which is helpful when you don't have enough hands to do stuff.

We only actively adjust the traveler when reaching and the wind is filled with "God Hammers". Sometimes the mainsheet just isn't fast enough in these conditions - but it's pretty rare. The only times I've seen that is distance racing while double trapped reaching with an offshore breeze



Edited by jake on Dec 17, 2014 - 05:51 AM.

ACat's curved traveler track eliminates any coincidental "sheeting" on the main by traveling on an arc

brilliant idea, too bad it doesn't work on a cat with crew, spinnaker and jib sheets so well

never teach pigs to sing.



Edited by jaybird1111 on Dec 17, 2014 - 12:11 PM.

Actually, for a boomed rig, leach tension will decrease initially (and maybe the whole distance of the traveler) as you let the traveler out. The main sheet attachment at the boom is further from the mast than the traveler track in order to force rotation of the mast. For boomless rigs leach tension will always increase since the sheet is already pulling backwards to force the mast rotation (same as for the jib, therefore curved track for jibs).

Andinista

Interesting. If I understood correctly, you are saying that the effect of the downhaul is not just depowering the sail, but doing it selectively: more in the upper part than the lower part, therefore it is not just the effect of the less power but also a lower lever arm because the force is applied further down. It makes sense.. I never thought about that. I guess it more noticeable in the square tops that in the tradtional sails. Mine is something in between..

Correct. The problem with playing the traveler is that you aren't actually changing the sail shape in a gust, you are changing the angle of attack. Since the CE of the rig stays at the same height, you end up having to dump a pretty significant amount of traveler down. This changes the relationship between the jib and main sail (closes off the slot). You may have to foot off a lot after the puff subsides in order to recover.

Pulling the downhaul bends the top of the mast. This is particularly true on Hobies which have a fiberglass comptip. Bending the mast flattens the sail and also loosens the leach. This allows the top of the rig to open up (align more closely with the apparent wind). The top of the sail stops generating power and actually begins to act like an end plate, preventing the high pressure air on the windward side from slipping over to the leeward side. This results in reduced drag. So you actually reduce drag AND you lower the CE which means the boat can handle more power without heeling over. And, since the main stays centered, you don't cut off the slot.

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Even with a good crew I could never make playing the downhaul work well. Just too much friction between the luff rope and the mast track. It would de-power fine, but I could not power back up. Maybe some serious lube on the luff rope and mast could help.

Lubing the luff track is a good idea. It could also be an issue with your downhaul system. If there is a lot of friction (over-sized line, lines rubbing on each other) that can cause problems. Cascading systems can work well, but they need a lot of fine tuning.

sm



Edited by Dogboy on Dec 17, 2014 - 10:25 AM.

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never teach pigs to sing.

Jay, I liked your explanation, it was spot on.

jake

The only times I've seen that is distance racing while double trapped reaching with an offshore breeze

Agreed. Only time I use it is returning to shore double trapped, beam to broad reach in 16 kts and above. Between timing the waves and pumping the sheets as we surf, the big puffs usually take us by surprise and I need to spill quickly. So I release the traveler and almost immediately begin bringing it back in. I have a knot in the line that stops the car before it crashes into the end of the beam.
Our path is usually down the face of the wave/swell and then up across the back of the next one, keeping on top of the wave for as long as possible. The time you spend in the troughs (if they are deep) is time that only part of your sails are receiving usable wind.

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I installed a cleat on each side to hold the traveler out. I made a 2:1 reduction to avoid applying all the load on the cleat. That requiered two small blocks on the traveler and one on each side of the beam. It works great. The position and angle of the cleat are important to avoid unwanted operation. It's use is optional.
I also put a block on the beam eyestrap to make the traveler line 3:1, as suggested. That works great too.
Exaggerated? I don't think so



Edited by Andinista on Jan 05, 2015 - 08:57 AM.

not sure why you would need more cleats besides the one that is already connected to your traveler ....

seems like it could cause trouble when tacking/gybing if you have other cleats to release ....