I have started preparing my Nacra 570 for the race to alaska and the first order of business is putting a reef in the boomless main. I was down at my local sail loft, a great outfit that prepared my offshore sails for my previous boat, and we had a brainstorming session to figure out the best way to add a reef to my sail.

The simplest idea is to add a clue board below a batten and clip the main block (maybe with a spectra lead) on after the sail has been lowered and rolled up. The problem that we see with this is that we might have some issues with the rolled part of the sail below (creasing, chafing, etc). Then we started getting wild and came up with a system to zip off the bottom of the sail, although it got far to complicated as we devised ways to keep the zipper from blowing up!

Does anyone have experience adding a reef to a boomless sail?? I would love to hear all about it.

The next question is; does the tension on the leech of the main significantly add to the strength of the rig? Can/should the sail be reefed past the forestay (i.e. the head of the sail is below the forestay)

Thanks for the help!

--
Phil W
Nacra 570
Victoria BC
www.mausails.com
--

Zipper reefing is not only possible, it's been done. Randy Reynolds owned a company (Multi-sails) that manufactured zipper reefing windsurfing sails that were quite functional. He also designed the zipper reefing system for the original Hobie Wave mainsails that worked on the same concept. The trick to keeping the zipper from "blowing up" is the use of heavy 1-1/2" wide nylon webbing load straps in conjunction with ladder lock buckles at the tack and clew fittings. These load straps transfer the luff and leech loads across the zipper and prevent damage.

With regard to the leech tension supporting the rig, the only time this would really be the case would be if you're running a spinnaker. In that case, you really wouldn't want to run the head of the sail below the spinnaker tang (if you're using the spinnaker). The leech tension of the mainsail helps to keep the mast section above the hounds from bending forward and potentially breaking. If you're not running a spinnaker, then the shrouds and forestay should be all that's needed to keep the mast in the boat.

sm

Could you carry an additional smaller main? Like a 500? Just thought. I know that space is limited but a extra main would probably be one of the things that I would carry on a long distance race.

--
Cesar (Cez) S.
Hobie 16 (had a few)
Nacra 5.2 "Hull Yeah"
Vectorworks XJ - A class (not named yet)
West Michigan (Grand Rapids/Holland Area)
--

Quote

The problem that we see with this is that we might have some issues with the rolled part of the sail below (creasing, chafing, etc)

I have a reefable main

i have 2 reef points (grommets) - i roll up the extra "foot" and simply secure the loop of sail with some bungees (there are webbing loops on each side of my sail to secure this foot) - it just lies next to my boom and does not get creased or beat up

you are going to have some other challenges with out a boom (you will need to have a strong batten directly above your new clew)

Thanks for the info! I don't think I will carry an extra main, just not enough room. I am leaning toward just a conventional reef, mainly for simplicity. I think that using unsheathed spectra leads will negate chafing. When reefed down, I will probably not be using the code 0 so I don't have to worry as much about the leech tension issue.

When the sail is reefed I will cleat the main halyard at the base of the mast, does anyone think mast compression will be an issue?

--
Phil W
Nacra 570
Victoria BC
www.mausails.com
--

tumbolo

When the sail is reefed I will cleat the main halyard at the base of the mast, does anyone think mast compression will be an issue?

Maintaining luff tension may be an issue. The mast will bend twice as easily as it does when the halyard hooks at the top. Stretch in the halyard will also be a problem so you'll want to use as low stretch a halyard line as you can. Also make sure the sheave at the head of the mast is up to the task of supporting the loads. Only way you'll know for sure is by experimenting.

sm

Adding a boom may be the simplest and safest way to go
A Prindle 18 Nacra F18 or similar booms and fitting will work

Hi-
My first post here, and first I'd like to thank ya'll for a most civilized and educational forum .
I'm in the process of re-furbing my first beach cat, a 1985 AMF Trac 16.
I had mostly intended to just watch and learn, but I saw this thread, and thought I might actually contribute something, as we have something like 20+ years in making small boat sails with zipper reefing.

I apologize in advance if this is long-winded, but I'm just trying to be clear .

A zipper reef could probably be installed on many, if not most, full batten sails.
We've put them in sails up to about 100 sq ft, but I'm sure it could work in larger ones as well.
The thing is, that it can't work with a bolt-rope luff - The sail has to be converted to slugs - One per batten.

The reef is set up, somewhere in the lower mid section of the sail, where the luff and leech are mostly parallel.
It can only work from any 2 adjacent parallel battens, with the zipper on the facing edges of the 2 batten pockets - the 2 batten pockets zip together.

OR - It can work by putting the (tape reinforced) zipper in the 2 spaces between 3 adjacent battens, with the reef spanning the middle batten.
Either the battens also need to parallel, or the zipper itself must be installed separately, perpendicular to the luff.

Does this sound clear? If you think about the geometry involved, it makes sense.

The poster that said the zipper needed to be supported by web straps was absolutely correct,
But not exactly the way he thinks.
Once the zipper is zipped together, imagine the fold of slack cloth resulting now,
hanging down alongside the the next lower section of the sail -
THIS is where the straps need to be.

The sail cloth forms a continuous, unbroken line, from above the upper half of the zipper, down to the bottom of the cloth fold.
If you put webbing straps, with side-release buckles, at luff and leech, at the bottom of the fold, and fasten them to the sail section below, THEY will take all the strain, and NOT the zipper.
Assuming of course, that they're adjusted to do so.

The nice thing about a reef like this, is that it can reduce sail area, while still preserving decent shape.
And no big bunch of cloth at the bottom.
And since it comes out of the mid section of the sail, no boom is involved, or needed, really.

Now, I'm only relaying the mechanics of the reef itself, the whole subject of mast bend, compression. or downhaul tension, is another subject entirely - YMMV

Thanks again, and I hope you're still awake , after all this
Tom

tracman

Hi-
My first post here, and first I'd like to thank ya'll for a most civilized and educational forum .
I'm in the process of re-furbing my first beach cat, a 1985 AMF Trac 16.
I had mostly intended to just watch and learn, but I saw this thread, and thought I might actually contribute something, as we have something like 20+ years in making small boat sails with zipper reefing.

Tom, Welcome to TheBeachcats.com, and great first post!

Are you a sailmaker? It's OK to go ahead and mention your company as long as you are also here to participate.

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

How To Create Your Signature

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How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
--

Buzz Waterstreet had a nacre 5.8 that was reefable. Skip Elliot modified it for him

"Are you a sailmaker? It's OK to go ahead and mention your company as long as you are also here to participate."

Thanks Damon -
Yes, we are sailmakers, but I'm not looking to promote that here -
I just wanted to help.

Thanks again for a great forum.
Tom

Quote

The thing is, that it can't work with a bolt-rope luff - The sail has to be converted to slugs - One per batten.

I have a bolt rope on my luff
i have a slug added to the head of the sail on the ring
and a slug at the grommet of the reef point (sewn into the luff) so when i apply downhaul, the new tack is in the track

That's the way to go, if you have a boomed foot, taking in the reef AT the foot -
The new "tack" and clew definitely need that reinforcement.

But I was describing (or trying to describe ) a different method of reefing -
Zipper reefing can't work with a full bolt rope -
The sail needs to be free at the luff between battens,
to be able to fold down against itself.

Tom

tracman

The poster that said the zipper needed to be supported by web straps was absolutely correct,
But not exactly the way he thinks.
Once the zipper is zipped together, imagine the fold of slack cloth resulting now,
hanging down alongside the the next lower section of the sail -
THIS is where the straps need to be.

The zipper reefing system that I described is not theoretical - it is what was actually used on these sails. I know this because I owned one of them and it worked quite well. The load straps were located at the luff and leech and were fed up through a grommet in the upper sail section and then back down to a ladder lock buckle to transfer loads across the zipper. When the sail is reefed, the grommets in the upper section of sail become the downhaul and outhaul connection points for the sail.

I believe what you're describing is a system where, when reefed, the sail panels are zipped together and then rolled up and secured with straps. The system that I described is one in which the reefed section of sail is unzipped and completely removed from the remaining sail. The removed panel is then stowed separately.

sm

I think we need some pictures of both Tom and Dogboy's setups, these are really hard to describe to us beachcat sailors that have never reefed.

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

How To Create Your Signature

How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar

How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
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Quote

But I was describing (or trying to describe ) a different method of reefing -
Zipper reefing can't work with a full bolt rope -
The sail needs to be free at the luff between battens,
to be able to fold down against itself.

Got it - thanks for your insight ... it's always great to hear sail info from an actual sailmaker



Edited by MN3 on Apr 04, 2015 - 07:41 AM.

DamonLinkous

I think we need some pictures of both Tom and Dogboy's setups, these are really hard to describe to us beachcat sailors that have never reefed.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to find any pictures. The company Multi-Sail dissolved sometime around the late 1990's. The owner, Randy Reynolds, moved on to other things (think Reynolds 33 catamaran). The concept was pretty simple. In the middle of one of the sail panels, there was a zipper that ran from luff to leech. At the luff and leech, there was a 1" wide heavy nylon webbing that spanned across the zipper. The webbings were sewn to the lower sail panel. Above the zipper (in the main sail section) was a grommet. When running full size, the bottom panel was zipped onto the main sail panel. The webbing "load straps" were passed up through their respective grommets and buckled. This allowed luff and leech loads to be transferred across the zipper so the zipper wouldn't blow apart.

To reef the sail, undo the load straps, unzip, remove and stow the lower panel, then drop the sail down the mast so the "new" foot is in the normal sailing position. Downhaul and outhaul were connected to the grommets that the load straps previously passed through.

I owned the windsurfing version of this sail and it worked quite well. A version was also available for the very early Hobie Waves, but a more traditional sail was soon introduced.

sm

I have a small sail here, that I can use to illustrate - I think it'll serve to describe both reef types.
We have a sail on the table for repair right now, but when we're done later today ..........

Tom

OK -
As promised, here are 4 photos, hopefully explaining the zipper reef I was talking about.
This is a tiny sail that we happened to have kicking around, but as I said, we've used this type reef in sails of 100 sq ft or so, and I don't see why it wouldn't work in larger ones -
Assuming appropriate reinforcement, of course

First one is of the sail unzipped -
This sail is actually set up for a double reef, but it was designed with this in mind.
Pay no attention to the other zipper -


Next, the batten pockets are zipped together - Again, the sail was designed for this, and the sections are parallel in both directions, so the luff and leech line up nicely - This wouldn't happen in a retrofit


OK, this is the back side of the sail, and you can see the fold of cloth, with the webs and buckles holding it down at the luff and leech


The last one is showing the luff, and you can see that the buckles at the bottom of the fold are really the connection between the upper and lower parts of the sail.
This sail really needs to have the buckles adjusted correctly - When they are, the luff lays flat and tight.
But you get the idea.
These connections would be sized up accordingly, for bigger sails


In the reef that Dogboy was describing, instead of a single separating zipper at the 2 battens, you would use one at each, and the excess cloth would be unzipped and removed . You'd then set up the webbing strain reliefs at the zipper itself. But the geometry and basic idea would be the same.

I hope this helps to understand it a little better.
But, as is obvious from the photos, the sail has to be free at the luff, in way of the reef - No boltrope

Tom



Edited by tracman on Apr 04, 2015 - 05:00 PM.

Thanks for the pics Tom, That helped make sorts of the description. I did a 30nm run this weekend in 20-25kts of wind on the quarter and really wished I had already put the reef in! All i could do was ease the main to depower and put a lot a chafe on the batten pockets where they were rubbing the shroud... I am heading up to the sailmaker this week and will discuss all my reefing options (and put chafing patches on!)

--
Phil W
Nacra 570
Victoria BC
www.mausails.com
--

just quickly glanced at this thread so your question may be answered but here goes anyway

I had a modified F-27 trimaran with boomless main. I had extra slugs (Marström mast) made into the halyard, as it must lock securely at the reef points. Another consideration is that you must choose carefully where the reefing points are not only for sail area reduction, but how well supported the mast is at the new headboard/lowered height on the mast.

see below video of my reefed main in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXjpPRxj848

Hiya, is anyone still watching this post?
I recently purchased a Nacra 5.8, I am looking at buying a new set of sails. Jib for roller furler and main with square top and reef'able. and just to be rooly difficult they gotta be red, because red goes faster ha ha.
Can anyone point me to a sailmaker that can help me out for a reasonable price and good quality.
Cheers

Check out SLO Sail and Canvas (slosailandcanvas@yahoo.com) 805-479-6122. They make a laminate square top main and jib at a very competitive price. You will have to buy new battens also, the old ones probably won't fit the new sail. Be sure to tell them if you have the 5.8 NA or regular as the jibs are different.

there are lots of sail lofts that can build a n5.8

all can make one, but sail lofts that specialize in sails (not tramps) are better (imho)

I would suggest going with the highest quality builder you can afford (Elliott / Pattison , landenberger sails, supersailmakers, glasersails and if you need to go on a budget: Chip at whirlwind)

Slo screwed me over and never returned my gear - i will leave it at that

Thanks for the replies guys : )

My F25C is boomless and reefs with a clutch sewn into the clew. Of course the the F25C has a clutch and winch halyard tension and a 7-1 downhaul. Not sure if your cat has a locking ring at the top of the mast/sail but if its windy enough to need a reef you probably need to control halyard tension. If daysailing I would recommend a smaller main made ( I had a smaller main for my Bimare F18HT as I only solo sail).

James F25C & H17