Just figuring options, that if H18 is too much problem for solo self rigging and sailing what smaller lighter weight cat would one look at buying for solo days. I'm familiar with H16. How about Acat or some of the newer hobies?

Used boats..



Edited by goodsailing on May 27, 2015 - 10:47 AM.

--
Goodsailing

Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area
--

A cats are a dream to handle solo, both on and off the water. Easy to right. Also consider F16s, or a Taipan 4.9 if you could find one. My Stealth weighs 230 lbs all up, and I can right it solo with a righting pole, I'm 160 lbs. I love the responsiveness of lightweight boats!

Dave

Hobie 17 is basically the solo version of the Hobie 18. It is lighter and has a more simplified rig. A good balance of weight, performance, durability, and cost/parts availability. (Ford Mustang)

A Hobie Wave is an option if you want super simple and easy but they are at the bottom of the performance spectrum. (Mo-ped)

A Hobie 14 is good for lighter sailors. They don't have the top speed of the larger boats, but in many ways, they can be just as exciting when the breeze is up and they are very light and simple to rig. You can also find them for very low prices. (Go-Cart)

An A-Cat would be tough to beat from a light weight standpoint, but the flip side is that they are not designed to take any type of abuse from a beach handling standpoint. Don't let them touch the ground, don't drive them into the beach, etc. They are also quite complex and will take a while to rig. Parts availability, you're either looking at very expensive replacement parts or custom building your own parts. (Formula 1 Race Car)

sm

mystere 5.0
nacra 5.0

Looks like Europe is waaaaay ahead of US for cats

http://www.eagle-cat.com/en/eagle-15-catamaran/

Found that here but most are not available here used. Shipping from Europe?
http://www.nauticexpo.com…port-catamaran-1661.html



Edited by goodsailing on May 27, 2015 - 10:19 PM.

--
Goodsailing

Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area
--

I don't think that a 16 ft cat will make your life a lot easier. May be an A cat or a wave, but they might not fit your budget or expectations (repectively). What about sailing elsewhere, with an easier access to water an paying for mast up storage. That would make a world of difference, you coulld take a few days off and try it out.

Quote

Looks like Europe is waaaaay ahead of US for cats

Not ahead of us, it's just that there is an active market for new performance cats
there is very little intere$t (and sales) of new high performance cats in the USA



Edited by MN3 on May 28, 2015 - 09:18 AM.

Get yourself a SuperCat 15 or 17. We have a friendly little group that sails them on the Potomac and Rapahanock. You will be welcome.



Edited by gahamby on May 30, 2015 - 11:35 AM.

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'82 Super Cat 15
Hull #315
Virginia
Previously owned: '70 H14, '79 H16, '68 Sailmaster 26, '85 H14T
--

I noticed that there is a Taipan in TX for sale in the classifieds. Looks nice.

Dave

Looks like someone wants to buy my H18 so I'm thinking now about cat that doesn't have daggerboards. Do SC have boards? Would inflatable be out of the question. I'm not as concerned about sailing, as I am about ground handling, and tasks to rig. Lets face it, if you want excitement you can take a little boat out in conditions it wasn't really meant for. The bigger and more forgiving the boat, the bigger the conditions must be to have fun... if you know what I'm talking about.

--
Goodsailing

Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area
--

I wouldn't own a 16 ft or above cat if I didn't have a mast up storage option. I keep my N5.5 during part of the spring and summer in a lake about 1 hr. away, or sometimes a better one about 2.5 hrs away, paying a monthly fee, to sail mostly on weekends. I try to do vacations late in summer and sail a full week or more, after which I call season off and I store it pretty far away (for free..) during autumn and winter. If I could store it home, I really doubt I would ever go day sailing and bring it back the same day. I would rather sail a laser.. sometimes I miss sailing Laser II, that was big fun actually. Better than wave or a H14 for my taste.

goodsailing

Would inflatable be out of the question.

Not at all and it solves a lot of your problems.
www.smartkat-sailing.com

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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goodsailing

I'm not as concerned about sailing, as I am about ground handling, and tasks to rig.

You sound like a prime candidate for a Hobie Wave. 250 LBS, 10 minutes to rig, exciting only in winds over 20 MPH.

sm



Edited by Dogboy on Jun 08, 2015 - 07:43 PM.

Quote

Lets face it, if you want excitement you can take a little boat out in conditions it wasn't really meant for. The bigger and more forgiving the boat, the bigger the conditions must be to have fun... if you know what I'm talking about.

sunfish are a hoot in real wind
so are waver runner tri's

Any boat you will get out and use is better than one sitting in your garage. Sunfish, lasers, etc are much more fun to sail than sitting on shore watching someone else sail. A Wave would be a good cat option if you want easy to handle on land and potential for fun on water.

I love my H18 but always have help on the beach. Would hate to solo muscle it up and down a beach, that would keep me from sailing it.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
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I agree with Andrew on this one. Nacra 5.0 or Mystere 5.0. Both are very similar boats, no boards, no boom, reasonably light and easy to rig. Both will handle you single handed or with a crew. Get a gin pole setup and you can step the mast solo relatively painlessly (you can do it without a gin pole setup but I have never been comfortable doing it). Next on my list would be a hobie 16. I'm not a fan of the wave for 'sport' sailing. It's a good little boat to learn on and for the family but doesn't have enough sail area and is too heavy to get yourself into any real fun... I mean trouble. :)

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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I think both the SC15 and 17 are boardless, and fairly simple to rig. Old enough to be fairly inexpensive to buy. Still good parts availability and support from Tom at Aquarius.

Mid 90s A cats can be had in the $3 to $5K range, although somewhat rare.

The Wave is a good choice if speed/performance is not at the top of your list of requirements.

Some good tips....thanks.

I have a Laser full rig and I've owned sunfish. The reason I got the H18 was that I wanted more deck space as the Laser is tough on knees. Plus, being a speed freak I chose H18. But it's the ground handling that's the problem with the H18. So I most likely bought the wrong boat, not that this is a problem as I have a marketable boat that could be sold, plus I've experienced a H18, yet not fully as I never got to hang out on the trapeze...nor did I learn how to right the boat as I never capsized it. No problem either if I'm not having fun. Right? So... the search is on... perhaps.

Not that I won't sail the H18 again prior sale, as I now have people to go with etc.. Or won't go unless I have crew.

So is the Wave that heavy? And, it's hard to find A-cats.

West Marine sent me plans to Grudgeon Bros A-cat, but instead of building A-cat hulls I'm building modified A-Cat hull (longer) for outrigger sailboat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdpvWt8SJv4



Edited by goodsailing on Jun 09, 2015 - 10:29 AM.

--
Goodsailing

Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area
--

Don't take this the wrong way, but you are not at the skill level where an A-Cat would be anywhere near appropriate, not to mention it doesn't fit any of the desired criteria you have already listed with the exception of weight. They are fragile, complex, and at the height of performance. An A-Cat will provide you with a whole new set of frustrations and is certainly not a boat that you should be learning the fundamentals on.

Stick with one of the production single handers. Hobie Wave, 14, 17, or any of the other countless boats out there that meet your needs.

sm

The Supercats have a righting system for solo righting, plus their just great boats!

--
Mac
Midlands South Carolina
AHPC Viper USA 366
A Cat USA 366
Super Cat 17
--

Quote

Don't take this the wrong way, but you are not at the skill level where an A-Cat would be anywhere near appropriate, not to mention it doesn't fit any of the desired criteria you have already listed with the exception of weight. They are fragile, complex, and at the height of performance. An A-Cat will provide you with a whole new set of frustrations and is certainly not a boat that you should be learning the fundamentals on.

Stick with one of the production single handers. Hobie Wave, 14, 17, or any of the other countless boats out there that meet your needs.

I agree: Having to lay horizontal on a trapeze on a twitchy acat boat wouldn't be fun at this stage in my life. I do that now on the laser without trapeze using stomach muscles! The reason I don't take the laser out much. The super cats look interesting but are hard to find. I have fundamentals. It's movement on the boat, on any boat, that takes getting use to. (I sat two chairs facing each other and practiced, arm and hand movements moving back and forth from chair to chair simulating tacking to get use to laser etc. Lot easier than doing it in the boat... Being on a trapeze has its learning curve too, that I hope one day to master.

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Goodsailing

Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area
--

Actually the wave isn't that heavy, only about 250 lbs but its only 13 ft long. Where it really falls down is that it has less than half the sail area of a Nacra 5.0. The N5.0 is considered a little underpowered for a 16 ft boat...

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Wave looks like fun...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h488HJhrIrU

--
Goodsailing

Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area
--

goodsailing

Wave looks like fun...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h488HJhrIrU

Nice, at 58 seconds there is a demonstration of that it is possible to completely pitch-pole a Wave even with two aboard! I was watching the boat on the left nearly lose it and almost missed the Wave on the right slap it's mast in the water.

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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Cool video, but the wind is honking. If you're looking for a fast, exciting ride, you'd probably be better off looking at a different boat than the Wave, unless of course you have 15kt winds all the time.

--
Tim
81 Hobie 16
87 Nacra 5.7
Austin, TX
--

Quote

If you're looking for a fast, exciting ride, you'd probably be better off looking at a different boat than the Wave, unless of course you have 15kt winds all the time.

I'd prefer sailing 15+ more like 20 so what would be your suggestion if not H18. At 15kts in H18 wasn't so dramatic.. more like pleasure cruzing.

--
Goodsailing

Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area
--

We are having the Raven "Rookie" Race on July 11 in Va Beach, there is a sailing seminar on how to tune/setup/race your boat before the race. It's a great opportunity to ask questions and check out the other boats.

You can leave the boat with the mast up on the beach for the weekend if you want to. Let me know if you're interested and I'll email you the details.

Zach
N5.7 NA

Quote

At 15kts in H18 wasn't so dramatic.. more like pleasure cruzing.

I see 3 potential reasons for this;
A) you have 800lb of water in your hulls.
B) you have no idea of how to trim sails.
C) the wind was actually 5 kts.
There was a recent thread where a poster showed an H18 hull well up, with only 10kts wind, & two adults onboard.
Our N5.0 & 5.7 will fly a hull, & can be flipped in 9kts, The Mystere will fly one in 7.
Something is seriously wrong if a noob Cat sailor is bored in real 15kts,(17mph). On any decent water, 17mph equates to solid whitecaps.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

[quote=Edchris177]

Quote

A) you have 800lb of water in your hulls.

Maybe that's why he find it so difficult to move.

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AB
--

Quote

C) the wind was actually 5 kts.

Wind was 14-15 mph. My bad. Only flew the main. Jib was furled. I was block to block, block in center. Full on for outhaul and full on for cunningham heading perpendicular to the wind and the hull did not rise. Is there any more trimming needed? Perhaps with jib deployed would have gotten there. We'll try again believe me.\
OH, no white caps. ?? not sure that would happen at 15kts. 70's boat, perhaps heavier than 80's models.

--
Goodsailing

Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area
--

hc16runner

We are having the Raven "Rookie" Race on July 11 in Va Beach, there is a sailing seminar on how to tune/setup/race your boat before the race. It's a great opportunity to ask questions and check out the other boats.

You can leave the boat with the mast up on the beach for the weekend if you want to. Let me know if you're interested and I'll email you the details.

Zach
N5.7 NA

I emailed you.

--
Goodsailing

Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area
--

goodsailing

I'd prefer sailing 15+ more like 20 so what would be your suggestion if not H18. At 15kts in H18 wasn't so dramatic.. more like pleasure cruzing.

Oh, my lord!



--
Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
--

Quote

OH, no white caps. ?? not sure that would happen at 15kts. 70's boat, perhaps heavier than 80's models.

White caps form at approximately 12kts of wind on open water, and by 15kts you'll have significant white caps.

As Edchris said, my Nacra 5.7 easily flies a hull in anything over about 8kts when I'm solo. If I'm solo at 15kts of wind, I have to travel out and depower to keep from flipping the boat. It's a handful at 15, but still fun. At 20 you'd better REALLY be on your toes or you're going swimming.

Your 18 must be seriously overweight if you're having trouble flying a hull. One suggestion is to find a local truck scale and weigh your boat. Drive onto it with boat on trailer, once again with trailer empty, then figure out boat's weight. At least you'll have an idea of the boat's weight and we can go from there in figuring out what the problem is.

--
Tim
81 Hobie 16
87 Nacra 5.7
Austin, TX
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If there were no whitecaps chances are you were under 10 mph wind. Sound like you did everything possible to 'de power' your boat. If you want to fly the hull you need more sail shape! Less Cunningham less main sheet less out haul and full jib. Then you will be flying. If everything is super tight then your sail will be super flat and you will get very little lift.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

15mph average windspeed is solid double trapping on a H18. Nothing extreme, but solid trapping.

If you're on a beam reach you definitely should not be traveler centered and sheeted hard. Look up at your telltails.

sm

goodsailing

Quote

C) the wind was actually 5 kts.

Wind was 14-15 mph. My bad. Only flew the main. Jib was furled. I was block to block, block in center. Full on for outhaul and full on for cunningham heading perpendicular to the wind and the hull did not rise. Is there any more trimming needed? Perhaps with jib deployed would have gotten there. We'll try again believe me.\
OH, no white caps. ?? not sure that would happen at 15kts. 70's boat, perhaps heavier than 80's models.

Block to block on a H18, I didn't know that was possible. That's a hobie 16 thing.

Cunningham (downhaul) should be just getting the wrinkles out to power up, and some speed wrinkles are good.

Outhaul should not be full on.

Did you have the rotation sucked in tight too?

Bet the sail looked like a sheet of plywood.

Here's a link to a trim sheet for a H18. I'm sure there are more.

http://www.fleet297.org/P…s/Hobie18TuningGuide.pdf



Edited by nacra55 on Jun 10, 2015 - 07:19 PM.

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Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
--

Quote

Block to block on a H18, I didn't know that was possible. That's a hobie 16 thing.

Cunningham (downhaul) should be just getting the wrinkles out to power up, and some speed wrinkles are good.

Outhaul should not be full on.

Did you have the rotation sucked in tight too?

Bet the sail looked like a sheet of plywood.

Here's a link to a trim sheet for a H18. I'm sure there are more.

http://www.fleet297.org/P…s/Hobie18TuningGuide.pdf

Guess it really depends which way you are pointing.

Here's from the sheet you supplied. Fact is: I was in the water 3 hours on multiple tracks, with multiple sheet adjustments and the hull never left the water. Again, the jib was not deployed. Last week with crew, and wind the same, the hull never left the water. How lightweight are you guys? I was also not out on the trap.



Moderate Air
Main Mast rotation Point at leeward shroud.
Downhaul Tight (set with main sheeted normally).
Outhaul Bottom batten 0" to 1" draft.
Traveler Centered.
Mainsheet Tight.
Jib Luff Tension Just tight (set on beach with main sheeted for conditions, see above).
Traveler Near the rear of the traveler to open the slot.
Jib Sheet Tighter in smooth water - Ease in choppy water.
Tiller Steer so that leeward tell tale below H is flowing but on verge of stalling.
Balance Crew and skipper on windward hull and forward, boat level.

Notice: BOAT LEVEL

--
Goodsailing

Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area
--

Minicat comes with oars and you can sail with oars on board. Can take packed boat on airliner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-f9PwbsppQ

--
Goodsailing

Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area
--

And a hobie wave will walk away from it.

--
Randy Neubauer
Apple Valley, MN
2001 H18M
--

Found another one: but with solid hulls... car topper.. http://www.x-cat.com/

--
Goodsailing

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To me boats are very much like musical instruments. Irrespective of the kind of instrument, if you get alternative junk you will most likely end up hating music rather than learning and enjoying anything. These last two toys that you shown will never be nearly as decent as your laser in my opinion, same as a decent wood recorder will play real music but a bamboo sax from the craft fair just won't. Now you want to play electric guitar instead of flute. That's fine. Just try to get a real one, that's all I'm saying.

I would say that you don't know what you are really looking for, you are relying on the assumption that you need two hulls for some reason, but these small cats would take you far away from what most of us assumed were your motivations to choose a catamaran. I would dig into that in the first place if I were you.

A decent cat will provide speed and excitement. But planning on a monohull is really exciting too. A toy cat will give you none of that, sooner or later you will feel embarrassed of having spent your money on that, I'd say. I used to sail a katyak when I was a kid (long ago..), trust me.. that wasn't sailing. I enjoyed it a lot of course. Toys are fun if you don't add wrong expectations. But when we changed to Laser II, after the very first acceleration, before even fully sheeting in, I understood immediately how miserable we were before. And, as with real musical instruments, we never reached perfection, there was always room for learning and refining, and there's such a lot of fun on that too. A toy will never give you that either.

Google the "frankenlaser", that could perhaps be an option for you:
- Solo
- Mobility
- Enjoy modifying it and reinventing at your will
- Wait until you get it planning on 15 or 20 knots... that will be REAL fun and real sailing. Very comparable to speeding your H18 in my experience.



Edited by Andinista on Jun 11, 2015 - 12:30 PM.

And as it would be cheap, maybe you could consider to keep your H18 for multiple day trips.

Quote

To me boats are very much like musical instruments. Irrespective of the kind of instrument, if you get alternative junk you will most likely end up hating music rather than learning and enjoying anything. These last two toys that you shown will never be nearly as decent as your laser in my opinion, same as a decent wood recorder will play real music but a bamboo sax from the craft fair just won't. Now you want to play electric guitar instead of flute. That's fine. Just try to get a real one, that's all I'm saying.

I would say that you don't know what you are really looking for, you are relying on the assumption that you need two hulls for some reason, but these small cats would take you far away from what most of us assumed were your motivations to choose a catamaran. I would dig into that in the first place if I were you.

A decent cat will provide speed and excitement. But planning on a monohull is really exciting too. A toy cat will give you none of that, sooner or later you will feel embarrassed of having spent your money on that, I'd say. I used to sail a katyak when I was a kid (long ago..), trust me.. that wasn't sailing. I enjoyed it a lot of course. Toys are fun if you don't add wrong expectations. But when we changed to Laser II, after the very first acceleration, before even fully sheeting in, I understood immediately how miserable we were before. And, as with real musical instruments, we never reached perfection, there was always room for learning and refining, and there's such a lot of fun on that too. A toy will never give you that either.

Google the "frankenlaser", that could perhaps be an option for you:
- Solo
- Mobility
- Enjoy modifying it and reinventing at your will
- Wait until you get it planning on 15 or 20 knots... that will be REAL fun and real sailing. Very comparable to speeding your H18 in my experience.



Edited by Andinista on Jun 11, 2015 - 12:30 PM.

I totally understand what you are talking about. Plus the toys I mentioned are not cheap by any means. I tried looking for Laser II long before thinking of catamaran but they're hard to find. Thanks for the intro to Frankenlaser! Not sure about excessive pressure on the mast step! I think I should simply stay with H18 through the season and give it a chance as some have suggested. I'm now getting more interest with people wanting to go out etc. so having help will offset the labor involvement. Besides: I've not mastered this boat so there's still more to learn including how to right it. I at least want to try using my righting pole to see if it works. I think the Wave would be a strong consideration especially since 1) its backed by major manufacturer who will most likely be around for years, 2) parts availability 3) resale value etc. Thanks for all the help and input.

But like motorcycles, ones for different purposes, you can't have too many boats either...

--
Goodsailing

Laser-Standard Rig (Sold 6/15)
H18 (Sold 7/15)
Building 19' Tacking Outrigger
Balt-Wash Area
--

About mast step, i don't think so, you need stays and i'd add diamond wires. Basically a Laser II Set up. Easy to make if you don't find a used one. The extrusion would be straight but it works.