Thinking about replacing my Nacra Inter 20 Sails. Current ones are Mylar by Elliot Patterson and believe are original. Still in pretty good shape but windows a little foggy and crinkled...new sails would be nice. Questions...

1. I know of Calvert and Elliot Patterson...any others I should be looking at?
2. Any recommendation on the maker?
3. Material: Mylar or Pentex?

I have been doing a few upgrades to the boat. Not racing yet... but love performance of the boat, also...ya got look good. Love the colors of the Pentex.

--
Steve
Nacra Inter 20
Okemos Michigan
--

I have a set of ep Pentax sails on my 5.7 and love them. They will last a lot longer than Mylar.

I also have a set of custom Dacron whirlwind sails on my 5.2 and they are equally nice! Maybe even better in the little details.

If it were me I'd go for a whirlwind super r Pentex sail as a first choice. With ep as a very close second.

--
Dave Bonin
1981 Nacra 5.2 "Lucile"
1986 Nacra 5.7 "Belle"
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
--

I purchased a new mylar main and dacron jib from SLO Sail and Canvas in May and am very happy with the performance, look and customer service.

https://photos.google.com…NG5fNW9zUU5sZ2ZnbWRia0JR

--
Kip
NACRA 5.8na
Chesapeake, VA
--

Several of the N20 sailors along the Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida gulf coast use Schurr Sails in Pensacola.
http://www.schurrsails.com/default.asp

Also Check out Glaser sails.
http://www.glasersails.com/

--
Ron
Nacra F18
Reservoir Sailing Assn.
Brandon, Mississippi
--

Don't know much about Shurr sails, but I will give a thumbs up to Glaser.... they have been involved with beach cats scene since day one (I believe the company was called Danger Sails), are still active in the local racing community, and the quality and customer service is A+++++++++



Edited by JohnES on Aug 23, 2015 - 11:43 AM.

--
John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
--

Take a look at this link for Slo Sails's Laminate sail material shown on a Nacra 5.2 its unique. http://www.slosailandcanvas.com/nacra-5-2-radial-injection-laminate-mainsail/

They have this material in several colors.

I recently purchased a Jib for my H18 SX and could not be happier!!! I special request for the trim and zipper to be done in Black.


Corkguy H18 SX

Corkmaster_1

Take a look at this link for Slo Sails's Laminate sail material shown on a Nacra 5.2 its unique. http://www.slosailandcanvas.com/nacra-5-2-radial-injection-laminate-mainsail/

They have this material in several colors.

I recently purchased a Jib for my H18 SX and could not be happier!!!

All the sailmakers mentioned can make great catamaran sails, but since http://www.slosailandcanvas.com/ is a paid advertiser you know who gets my vote!

Corkmaster, you need the matching main! Love that die injected Pentex.

Steve, whoever you end up dealing with, please report back on your experience (with pictures), and tell them TheBeachcats.com sent you, need more advertisers!

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

How To Create Your Signature

How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar

How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
--

Randy Smyth made be some big sails for the Open 20 rule. They WAY powered up the boat.

+1 on SLO, those guys have taken very good care of me. Great communication, and great product. They use DP sail cloth like most of the other good guys do. I would ask which brand sail cloth is used then talking to sail makers. They have quite a bit of experience with catamarans and specifically Nacras even though their site shows a lot of different boats and monos. They were on revision 4 or so on the Nacra 5.2 radial cut main and were quick to say that they were happy with where they are in the development of that sail. Always nice to use a sailmaker with experience on your specific boat. I can't say whether or not that applies to the I20 in this case though.
Email Andrew slosailandcanvas@yahoo.com and tell him that Cesar sent you.
These guys sponsored quite a few events for us here in Michigan so in addition to making good product they are also active in the sailing community with sponsorship which is a good thing.
Here is a link to SLO's site with a couple pictures of my sails http://www.slosailandcanv…adial-laminate-mainsail/

Take care, happy sailing

--
Cesar (Cez) S.
Hobie 16 (had a few)
Nacra 5.2 "Hull Yeah"
Vectorworks XJ - A class (not named yet)
West Michigan (Grand Rapids/Holland Area)
--

Look, no offense to the guys above, and I'm sure SLO sails make a great product as does Schurr (who was building to Randy Smyths design I believe), but you're looking for sails for a fully blown race boat, not the family Nacra 5.2 that you bounce around the beach on....

If you're still racing the I20/N20 in a one design fleet, EP is the only class legal sailmaker, and builds a good product.

The Schurr Open 20 sails I am confident are faster in light air than the stock setup but seemed really over powered in breeze and I'm not sure about the build quality. The ones I saw were on an aluminum rigged N20, which is a rare beast and a completely different mast shape/bend etc. than the stock I20/N20 carbon stick.

Now, if you aren't racing in a one design fleet, I'd be having a long conversation with Jay Glaser. They build really fast sails and are one of only 2 sailmakers in the U.S building competitive F18 sails (North being the other). If you aren't building competitive F18 sails, you are simply behind the times on sail development. So, they would be my go-to choice, especially since they have already a set of fast, proven sails for the 20-they were used to win the last Great Texas race if I'm not mistaken.

Performance Sails are currently manufacturer supplied and race legal sails on the Nacra Inter 20. EP's are grandfathered in but have not supplied sails in years.
Performance Sails are owned by Nacra and are some of the fastest sails in the world (won the last two F18 worlds!), and are reasonably priced. We can build for aluminum or carbon I20 masts.
You're in Michigan, we can ship you some from Illinois from Nacra North America. Drop me a note, Todd@NacraSailing.com (don't worry Damon, your on my list :)

I know SLO makes a good product... but bigger and powered up is much less efficient than the current designs the top sail makers are using (Performance, Glaser, etc.)

Wolfman, Mylar is the film on the outside, Pentex is the fiber inside. The newer mylar laminates have come a long way from what you think of as Mylar. In reality, Pentex is terrible. It breaks down easily and is only a slight cost savings for VERY minor performance over polyester laminate. In a perfect world we'd all sail with Polyester Laminate or Carbon laminate and nothing in between because it would be hard to create value and performance in a mid level fiber. Ask a top sailor that knows about cloth, sailmaker, and sailcloth manufacturers, they will agree. This has been a big sore point in the F18 class because the 2-5% improved stretch of Pentex but how do you phase it out? Heck if the sailcloth manufacturers could stop making pentex they'd be thrilled, most have already tried including the company I used to work for.

I would contact Chip at Whirlwind sails. He makes really nice sails custom to every boat at a good cost. He made me some great Technora sails that are awesome!

http://www.whirlwindsails.com/videos.html

--
David
Nacra 5.5SL
Nacra 5.2 (sold)
San Diego, CA
--

All depends on what you are looking for. You've got cheap, you've got value (good product good price), and you have top end which is usually overpriced. When you have one design restrictions then you are usually stuck with the third but I don't think that you have that in a I20. But EP cuts decent sails as well.

I know someone that went cheap and blew out the sail track stitching on the first big puff.

I'd definitely consider how many sails the sailmaker has cut for your specific boat though.
wildtsail @ performance sails seems to have it all for your case.

SLO specializes in that great value field. Feel free to ask the guys at SLO about their race history as well. They aren't the Glaser team but they are experienced and understand how to make performance sails. Again I don't know about their I20 experience though. I would consider that a major factor.

If you do the occasional portsmouth race then I'd seek value, meaning you define what you want to pay for. Maybe having the top of the line sail is valuable to you, to me it was using a sail maker with experience with my boat that used the specific DP fabric that I was looking at and price. Glaser came in a bit higher and since my boat has a much different sail plan than a F18 I opted for SLO who knew my boat and the jib/genoa and main scene a little better.

Whoa there sam99us! Haha My old 5.2 sees more races than many boats, family beach cruises still happen though relatively rare. While somewhat outdated, it was the full blown race boat back in it's day and still moves pretty well and isn't missing much that new boats have. I keep it around because I can race it weekly, set it up quickly, and it rates close to the other guys that I race with every week, we usually have a few close in rating on the weekend regattas as well.



Edited by cezo823 on Aug 26, 2015 - 11:33 AM.

--
Cesar (Cez) S.
Hobie 16 (had a few)
Nacra 5.2 "Hull Yeah"
Vectorworks XJ - A class (not named yet)
West Michigan (Grand Rapids/Holland Area)
--

wildtsail, interesting point on the Performance Sails...will advise our fleet to go that way if it remains class legal and cost effective.

cezo823, not ragging on the Nacra 5.2 which is a fine boat but my real point is no one is doing serious, race performance based development work on sails for older platforms. Even if you got 10-20 Nacra 5.2's together for a race, the depth of talent is unlikely to match that of even the U.S F18 fleet, which has Olympic contenders and hopefuls down to about 10th place at U.S Nationals and far deeper than that in a Worlds fleet. It's tough to do good sail development without really top level sailors on the boat racing regularly-the feedback loop just isn't there, no matter how good the design team is.



Edited by samc99us on Aug 27, 2015 - 02:51 PM.

I've had multiple positive experiences with both Glaser and EP.

Dave

I had EP make me a new main for my Inter-18 a couple of years ago. I went with Dacron. The sail will last a very long time and can be repaired. We sail heavy weather on Lake Michigan so this was important. The boat will never be competitive in the F-18 class so it was stupid to spend an extra 1K on a high tech sail cloth.

If your boat is an Inter-20, (vs a Nacra-20). You might want to consider saving that 1K for rudders or something else that will break. Maybe a rear crossbeam.

I was easiest to buy a stock F-18 jib.

Skip put red batten pockets on the main. Overall the rig looks great and I am happy.

--Norm

https://www.flickr.com/ph…ansoncoyne/shares/hM1eLe



Edited by nhanson on Aug 27, 2015 - 05:43 PM.

--
nacra inter-18
CNBP
--

All good samc99us, just messin with ya. Deeper pockets doesn't necessarily mean better talent but I get your point and totally agree. The active and most competitive classes are where innovation comes from and where the top talent tend to gravitate towards. Can't discount that at all. Stock car racing vs Formula 1.

To relate back to purchasing a sail, if I were competing in the F18 worlds I'd pay for every piece of tech and innovation that I could afford to, those extra percentage points can make a different with the top talent in the world. Anything less I'd go after value, best bang for the buck, personal opinion. 95% of it is skill, experience, and tactics, if it was mostly about the motor (sail in this case) then we would all be power boaters instead of sailors. :)

--
Cesar (Cez) S.
Hobie 16 (had a few)
Nacra 5.2 "Hull Yeah"
Vectorworks XJ - A class (not named yet)
West Michigan (Grand Rapids/Holland Area)
--

Thanks for all the input and suggestions!

Ended up ordering a polyester laminate set from Performance Sails/ Nacra North America in late December. I was hoping they would be here before the start of the season. After a little prodding in late April I found out there was a snafu in transmitting the order to the Netherlands. To compensate they through in a set of foam core battens (sweet!).

Shipped several weeks later but had to sit in a customs office in Tennessee for almost three weeks before arriving mid-June.

Royal blue jib, white main, and an orange and white spinnaker. Would love to show off the spin in the pic but haven't flown it yet. I ordered one for an end pole snuffer but I think I got one for a mid-pole (3/4 connection points instead of the two). I've sent several emails and web submissions to Performance Sails/ Nacra North America/ Central Coast Sailing but I am having a hard time getting a response.

Anyway, hopefully they are all busy with the Olympics and they'll straighten it out in the coming weeks. Should I be concerned about this or no worries and just go fly the thing?



--
Steve
Nacra Inter 20
Okemos Michigan
--

Not sure how long you have been trying to contact them
I find it very frustrating when a vendor won't properly take care of its customers
esp a new customer whos order they have already had issues with

I would be slightly hesitant to go with a vendor out of the usa
your ability to dispute an issue or get repairs done seem to be problematic

How long have you been trying to contact them?

Quote

Anyway, hopefully they are all busy with the Olympics and they'll straighten it out in the coming weeks. Should I be concerned about this or no worries and just go fly the thing?

Vendor issues can be problematic, Nacra has always been a little hit or miss in that regard. Rick Bliss at New England Catamarans is the man to talk to about resolving issues, he will run point and do his best to get it solved. My suggestion though is to take your old kite and new kite to a competent local sail maker and have them add the end pole patch(s) to the new kite.

As to overseas vendors, that isn't always the case. For example, I have found all my dealings with the British cat sailing community to be top notch.

On the sails, they look fantastic! Can you do me a favor and snap some photos from behind the boat of the main with reasonable breeze? Also one looking up the middle of the main from the boom? Sail needs to be sheeted on and boat placed like you are going to weather. Some quantitative analysis vs. the EP sails would also be good, are these deeper cut? Flatter? More or less responsive to downhaul?

Oh, I've seen some SLO Canvas tramps in the local fleet, they are a quality product. Buy with confidence there!

Quote

As to overseas vendors, that isn't always the case. For example, I have found all my dealings with the British cat sailing community to be top notch.

I am sure it's not always the case.. just saying your ability to have any recourse is diminished when dealing with non-us vendors

Having personally been screwed over by a vendor in the usa makes me even more reluctant to go overseas. If there was cash money involved in my situation (and not a very used trampoline that was never returned) i would have filed a small claims case. Can't do that with a company in the Netherlands

Plus i prefer to support american companies whenever possible (says the guy on a Canadian catamaran, with more than 1 European sail in my storage area)

I think the sails look great, and the spin attachments shouldn't be a big deal to fix... but sucks x30 that you have to put more patches in it ... esp on brand new gear

schoen.steve

Thanks for all the input and suggestions!

That's a really good looking sail, and it looks like you no how to have fun on your N20!

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

How To Create Your Signature

How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar

How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
--

[/quote]

What is the orange tape on the top of your mast/sail ?

1. Been trying to contact them for several weeks, like 3-4. Frustrating. Purchased through the guys in Illinois ...Nacra North America. Like I said, hopefully they are just busy with the Olympics!
2. I have SLO Canvas tramp. First one they sent was 2 inches short so I sent it back with my old tramp for a template and they replaced it at no cost. Had them customize it with a couple more eyelets in it so I could bungie up my spin sheet. Side lace. Works great and love it.
3. Had my sister and her kids on the boat at the time waiting for the camera boat to catch up (20ft pontoon with a 150HP motor...HA!) so my sails were not in the most favorable position. The two trap'ing out are my 8 yr old niece and 11 yr old nephew. They loved it.
4. Additional pic's - no problem, heading north this weekend for some boat time so I will be able to post them Tuesday.
5. Orange tape - streamers which fowled up. Attached them to the battens strings. They don't work to well off of the top most batten. See the blue one on the next batten. I fly stunt kites so a little line laundry.

--
Steve
Nacra Inter 20
Okemos Michigan
--

schoen.steve

Ended up ordering a polyester laminate set

Steve,

Do you know what brand/model the actual sailcloth is?

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

How To Create Your Signature

How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar

How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
--

If you don't mind me asking, with all the excellent sail makers like Glaser, Schurr, EP, etc... that have that have built sails for the 20... why did you go with a overseas manufacture?

--
John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
--

EP sails are slow.

Not sure how Schurr is. They had a fast boat in the Florida 300
but were running way oversized sails, the N20 main is big enough stock EP, just not efficient

Glaser are good, very good, but one of the most expensive options at present, with the euro and pound down.

Performance have been building N20 sails in Europe for decades and have won the past two F18 worlds. They are fast, very fast sails and well built. They generally use Contender Apen 06 in their sails: http://www.contenderus.com/laminates/racing-laminaat-apen.html

samc99us

Glaser are good, very good, but one of the most expensive options at present, with the euro and pound down.

You're still under $5K for a new wardrobe with Glaser... with a $0.10 difference in the euro it is still a wash after you factor in freight, duty tax, customs fee, and the aggravation... I looked at Performance for a new wardrobe for my F-18, and the euro was a lot stronger at the time. AAMOF I was going to have one of my work mates in Alphen aan den Rijn go pick them up and ship to me to avoid paying the taxes, but that failed as he would have had to have paid a VAT In the end it was about a $200 difference between them and Glaser when it was all said and done.

--
John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
--

Hey everyone,

I've been in touch with Steve and apologized for being hard to get ahold of for a bit. Entirely my fault and his issues are sorted. We rarely have issues with shipping but our normal parts team was out of the office and the guy that shipped it left out some information.

Steve's Sails are Contender C242 Polyester Laminate. Same cloth we use on the Nacra 15, Nacra 460, 500, and 570.
I suggested this cloth to Steve as it's less expensive and handles abuse better. It does stretch a little more but it's very minor and you really won't notice unless your seriously racing. I personally find Pentex horrible as any little crease shows and affects sail shape. This polyester is a bit more durable in that regard.
Performance Sails has this cloth custom made in Red, Blue, Green, and White.

Performance Sails are made in house at Nacra in Holland. We can ship to the U.S. for the same price as shipping within the U.S.
Seems that I'm always correcting Sam, but Nacra / Performance Sails have won the last 3 worlds. But so little of that comes down to the sails versus the sailor. Our sails have definitely been noticed by sailors over the last couple years for quality and performance. It takes sailing at the top levels to recognize development and implement it into your own sails. Luckily we have very talented sailors as owners of Nacra and Performance sails who help develop the sails from the knowledge they've gained from the F18, N17, 20FCS, and etc.

If anyone has more questions about the sails please do not hesitate to contact me: Todd@NacraSailing.com
Don't forget to support beachcats.com sponsors ;)

Regards,
Todd Riccardi
Nacra North America

nacrasailing

Steve's Sails are Contender C242 Polyester Laminate. Same cloth we use on the Nacra 15, Nacra 460, 500, and 570.

Todd,

I can't find the fact sheet on anything labeled C242. Contender has kind of a spread of websites for different countries so maybe I'm not finding the right one. Found this list of downloads
http://contendersailcloth.com/downloads.html

Could you link me to the facts for the C242 cloth? Also are there any pics of the Performance Sails in the colors you mention? The site I found for Performance Sails was http://www.performancesails.com/ but no details.

I'm always complaining that our sails have all gone grey, kind of like most of the sailors.

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

How To Create Your Signature

How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar

How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
--

Thanks Todd, good info

Quote

If anyone has more questions about the sails please do not hesitate to contact me:
Don't forget to support beachcats.com sponsors ;)