Looking to upgrade from H18 and I've narrowed it down to Miracle 20 or 1st gen Tiger or Inter 20. I understand all of these are race boats. I've had zero experiance with any of the boats or even seen one in person for that matter. Please help me understand how they will compare to the 18 in several catagories:

Performance
Will there be a noticeable difference at all points of sail? I've read the tiger points much better but for speed it really only faster downwind. If that's the case I may be better off adding a spin to the 18. The 20's look pretty damn fast to me...

Durability
Is dragging these boats up on the beach such a bad idea that I must carry beach wheels with me at all times if I want to island hop? If pulling on and off the beach could I just plan on bottom job every few years to keep things in check? I'm lucky if I get 12+ sailing days a year.

Heavy Crew
I think this is the biggest downside of the 18. I'm 215lb and my crew ranges from 170 - 250lb, I'm sure the 20's would be fine with this weight but what about the tiger? What if I were to load three guys or two couples (700 lb), would the added stress likely break something? Which boat could take the most abuse?

Rigging Time
How much additional time from trailer to water do the spin boats add? I can get my 18 done in about 30 min.

Wings
This used to be a deal breaker but I've changed my tune a bit. If I find out I really miss them I think the Hobie Getaway wings look easily adaptable to just about any cat.

I have a lot of experience on the H18 and the H20 and have seen/raced against Tigers and Inter 20s.

There will be a very noticeable difference in performance between the H20 and the H18. The 20 is much more powerful upwind and downwind. You can really feel the improved speed and efficiency upwind. The 20 will be faster than a Tiger upwind, but downwind, without a spinnaker, the 20 will not be able to hang with the spinnaker boats. You really have to be on your game when sailing the H20 in a breeze as it is much less forgiving than the 18. The boat wants to be driven hard.

Setup time between the H20 and H18 will not be a lot different once you become efficient at rigging the 20 (I am referring to the stock 20 which does not have a spinnaker). The mast on the 20 is 3 feet longer than the 18 and can be a bear to raise manually. From a simplicity and pleasure sailing standpoint, you really can't beat the 18. The 20 has several more lines on the tramp as well as the jib cable which runs across the width of the tramp. It's really not a pleasure sailing boat and in fact, a lot of sailors dropped out of the class because the boat can be so hard on the crew.

The 20s are strong boats, but I would be leery about putting 700LBS of crew weight on any of the boats you mentioned (except maybe in light wind, low chop conditions). Also, some of the early boats (up to around 1995) had issues with the hull seams separating at the crossbars. You also really need beach wheels. The boat can be dragged a few feet across the beach (like when pulling it out of the water), but it should be moved across long distances on wheels or the bottoms will take a beating.

Tiger performance would be somewhere between the 18 and the 20 upwind. Downwind, with a spinnaker, it will be faster than both. If you're looking to getting into spinnaker sailing, it's probably a good choice. The Inter 20 would be similar to the H20 upwind (maybe slightly less powerful due to a smaller jib), but downwind with the spinnaker, it would be faster.

sm



Edited by Dogboy on Mar 25, 2016 - 11:18 AM.

I've got quite a bit of experience with all three of the boats that you're considering and have a lot of time racing on the H20 and I20; only done one F18 nationals and it was on a Tiger.

Performance:
I20 is the fastest of the boats you're considering, but is also the most powerful due to the square head main, stiff carbon mast and deep boards. The H20 and Tiger will be about the same speed upwind with the Tiger getting the edge with the spinnaker downhill. Note that the H20 will be the easist to depower due to the comp tip mast, the Tiger has less power, but the aluminum mast is flexible enough to easily flatten the main. If you get an I20 with the old carbon mast, that thing is tree trunk stiff when it comes to bending it and flattening the main sail.

Durability:
IMO, the I20 will be the most stout of the boats on your list. We put them through hell in the Worrell and they just took it. I think the Tiger would be the second most durable with the H20 coming in last. Be forewarned that there were some issues with bulkheads under the main beam delaminating in the earlier boats (

I don't know why I can't get my post to load....

here's the rest of what I wrote:

older than 1995?). You will have to "protect the mast" with both of the spinnaker boats when going downwind with the kite up, or any time in big air.

Comfort/sailability:
The H20 loses points for having the jib wire on the deck. I20 has a huge, spacious tramp, but.... flat bottoms that slap a lot in waves. The Tiger is smaller and will have better action through waves than the I20, but it's two feet too short IMO. Regardless, none of them are really just "go cruise around" boats. Regarding carrying capacity, I20>H20>Tiger. The I20 and Tiger do win points if you get boats with self tacking jibs.

Setup Time:
All three will be about the same if you don't rig the spinnaker, that will add an extra 15 minutes to your setup time.



Edited by wlrottge on Mar 25, 2016 - 01:24 PM.

You've got some good information from Will and Dogboy. These are all great boats but nothing like your H18.

Both mentioned the Hobie 20 being hard on the crew, to me that drops it from consideration for a "recreational" beachcat. The way it's jib is rigged the space on the tramp where crew can be is limited. This is intentional of course since the boat was designed to be an all-out race boat before the spin boats came along.

No need for consideration on comfortable places to sit on the tramp when the crew will always be on the trapeze! H20's double trap in single digit wind speeds with 300 pound crew weight.

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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

How To Create Your Signature

How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar

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I would go with the Inter 20... the boat was designed from the start to carry a spinnaker and you won't have to Micky Mouse one if you want to go this route.

Spinnaker sailing can be fun; along with the layout of the Inter 20 has lots of room for your crew to move around..

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John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
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I sail my Hobie 20 mostly recreationally. I added Hobie magnum wings and de-rigged the 3way jib system to a 2 way system to clean up the tramp for my crew and make it easier. Also added a jib furler to de-power the boat and keep the jib rolled up when on the beach. The jib is very big, if you're not watching it carefully the boat will sail off by itself even with the mainsail down.
I'm about 220# and always have 1 or 2 crew in the 170-200# range and it handles just fine - lets you push the speed and less worries about capsizing.
The 20 handles big waves and chop like a boss. Another good point is that they're relatively inexpensive these days. Got mine with a fancy trailerX trailer and beachwheels for $3k
I can have it setup in :30 min if I have a helper. Use a mast stand and have the helper winch up the mast as you guide it up and it's no big deal.

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Tim Grover
1996 Hobie Miracle 20
Two Hobie 14's
1983 G-Cat Restored
Memphis TN / North Mississippi
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I am not sure the I20 and the H20 are really that comparable. I would decide first if you want a spin or not. I am assuming you would like a spin, so the only pro for the H20 at that point would be any class racing in your area.

Ive never sailed a Tiger, but I have much experience on the F18 design and I20. Here is much thoughts.

The I20 makes a better cruiser, more power, much more room on the tramp. The I20 will kill an F18 on the fun factor in 6-12 wind range. At 15+ it becomes more difficult to de-power the I20, but the I20 only has an 8:1 downhaul stock. Under 12 on the wind, I would have no concern about taking a couple extra friends for a ride on the I20. I even triple trapped off of one of mine on occasion.

The F18 is a better class racing buoy racer, easier to sail fast in big breeze (IMO).

Both boats require crew actively participating in big breeze. You wont just be handing a jib sheet to a newb on either boat. The I20 certainly has higher loads related to the spin.

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Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
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I love my I20. Buoyant hulls and lots of room on the tramp. I often sail with 3-4 150-200Lbs adults or three adults and a couple of tweens. Mainly inland lakes so not much wave action. In a blow...three adults is perfect. It's a very fast boat so you have to look ahead and plan your route. That being said it is super maneuverable and self tacking jib means crew doesn't have to do much, unless flying spin.

Rigging...until you know what you are doing give yourself an hour and a half. Once you get the hang of it it still takes 45 minutes min.. Could probably do it faster if I had some experienced help. Sucks to put the mast up and find you have a spin halyard not run correctly so I take my time double checking. Leave the spin off and you'll save some time.

Beaching: I wouldn't drag my cat on rocks or many hard shells. Sand ok, still try to pick up the bows and float the rear as much as possible (great lakes and inland lakes = no tide worries). @ 400Lbs with enough adults you can pick it up and carry it.

Spin or not...Flying it is a gas, even in light breeze. Adds a whole new dimension. Lots of fun in a blow if you have a crew that knows what they are doing. It's great to have and you don't have to use it if you don't want to.

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Steve
Nacra Inter 20
Okemos Michigan
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Look for a Supercat 20. Rugged boat, nearly indestructible, I drag it across the beach all the time! designed and built for a big crew load, fun to sail in all conditions. Easy to rig, with a gin pole even easier, simple controls, spinnaker optional. Very, very fun recreational boat with 20-23 kt top end. My handle on youtube has some videos, here's one link going nearly 20mph ( main only, wife crewing)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI8R0mecjHs other videos on same channel

EDIT: See video 'Potomac River Boogie' for a 20 kt beam reach with a big crew load. I believe there are 4 SC20's on this website at this time. These Supercats are really too old to race but for recreational fun you just can't beat em.



Edited by havliii on Mar 26, 2016 - 09:33 AM.

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'life is too short to drink cheap beer'
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Havlii,

I love the SC20 also, but you should mention it is 12' wide and requires expanding every time you trailer. This adds a lot of time compared to a H18. I grew up with the SC20 and love the boat, but trailer day sailing is a lot of work. I had a H18M for years and recently went to H21SE since I have mast up storage. I would not recommend a 10' or 12' wide boat to anyone doing day trailer sailing, just my 2 cents from experience.

I haven't sailed the H20 or I20, but loved my H18M. All of these boats were race boats in there prime, technology has just gotten better.

--
Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
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Also consider the Nacra 6.0. Rugged and fast boat. It does have the jib cable on the tramp somewhat limiting the space. Setup time same as the others you listed.

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Pete Knapp
Schodack landing,NY
Goodall Viper,AHPC Viper,Nacra I20
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I agree with the Supercat suggestion, although if you are getting the 20 I would recommend either on the beach storage or a tilt trailer. Setup on a collapsed SC20 is a lot of work, plus you can swap the telescoping rear beam with a solid one and put a traveler track on it, I really don't like the cable traveler. The 19 offers some of the benefits in trailerable width, but you miss out on the huge tramp that the 20 has which is great for rec sailing. Agree that it is a fast, tough boat that keeps things simple. Once expanded it is simple to rig, mast is longer and heavier than others but not particularly more difficult. Good phone support from Aquarius. I can give pics and dims of the tilt trailer my friend built for his. Plenty of choices, make sure you want to switch, H18 is a great Rec boat, but I know you know that. Let us know what you decide

The SC20 and 19 are farm equipment compared to an I20, seriously. (IMO)


The I20 has the nicest and crispest helm of any beach cat out there. The entire boat is exceptionally well balanced. I think you would find the same opinion in anyone who has raced one.

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
--

I agree they are primitive, at least the SC20 I sail is. I just think it fits the bill of durability and heavy crew weight performance. Also, while there are no wings available, the SC20 has a huge tramp and jib blocks neatly out of the way. All good rec boat characteristics, but the poster does seem to want some newer gear judging by his 3 considerations

smfinley

I love the SC20 also, but you should mention it is 12' wide and requires expanding every time you trailer.

Simple solution: My SC20 is 9 feet wide, I cut 18 inches off both ends of the beams. I trailer it everywhere, no expanding necessary. Rigs in 45 min. (no it is not road legal at 9 feet but I've never been stopped and measured.)

bacho

The SC20 and 19 are farm equipment compared to an I20, seriously. (IMO)

This ole farm boy loves plowin' water! Any plow that'll do 20 kts is plenty good for me. My 20 is so balanced she'll run for miles without so much as a finger on the helm. I'll let go of the tiller and let her run. Many witnesses will testify to that.

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'life is too short to drink cheap beer'
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Wow, thanks for all the great responses a lot of good information here. I think finding a boat to replace the Hobie 18 is a hot topic in the beachcat community. (Although I think the Hobie pearl is it)

I'm leaning towards the Inter 20, when I think about the things I wish my 18 did better the I20 fits the bill.

Performance - No question here, it's a screamer. I was a little worried it may be overpowered since I rarely have knowledgeable crew but looking back, most of the time on the 18 I'm hoping for more wind.
Durability - This is still a bit of concern but I'll just need to be more careful, not a big deal. Is it possible to sail the I20 with beach wheels strapped down to the hull?
Heavy Crew - Should be able to handle the weight of 3 guys on occasion.
Wings - I'v seen a few custom wing setups and I could build a set if needed.
This video has some good shots of a killer F20 wing setup https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lF1XYc4mMQ

How about adding a F18 spinnaker to your H18? I found I was only tipping over once per year until I added a spin, now its allot more refreshing.-


I agree with Havliii 'life is too short to drink cheap beer'

What about a Mystere 6.0 with wings? I've seen a few but know nothing about them.

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Hobie Getaway
Prindle 18 - Sold
South Padre Island, TX
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I20 with beach wheels...not really. Only space would be between the mast and the forestay without the spin pole and jib. Maybe some of the foam hull chocks.

http://www.murrays.com/13-0021.html

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Steve
Nacra Inter 20
Okemos Michigan
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Now...really?? Is it the first of April already??

car_guy

Wow, thanks for all the great responses a lot of good information here.
Durability - Is it possible to sail the I20 with beach wheels strapped down to the hull?v=9lF1XYc4mMQ[/url]

A

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Tornado (80's Reg White)
Prindle 18-2 (sold)
Dart 16 (hired and hooked)
13 mtr steel cutter (sold)
Etap 22, unsinkable sailing pocket cruiser.

Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Do any of you guys have any experience with Mystere boats? I have seen a few 6.0's listed for sale, and am interested in how they compare to an I20, or even a Nacra 570.

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Hobie Getaway
Prindle 18 - Sold
South Padre Island, TX
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chump23

Do any of you guys have any experience with Mystere boats? I have seen a few 6.0's listed for sale, and am interested in how they compare to an I20, or even a Nacra 570.

http://www.catsailor.com/…flat&Number=51009&page=1

Pretty much everything you need to know about the Mystere. Older pre spin design like the Nacra 6.0.

I like Cork's comment about F18 sails on a H18. That sail plan makes a big difference. Or a new squaretop main plus F18 spin would be nice on a H18 too.

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Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
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smfinley

I like Cork's comment about F18 sails on a H18. That sail plan makes a big difference. Or a new squaretop main plus F18 spin would be nice on a H18 too.

I was originally thinking of hoping up my 18 with a spin and squaretop but it's still a submarine with any kind of weight. I would be very curious to see how a 21sc would perform with modern sails and taller rig....

21's are heavy, but with a modern sail and taller mast the 21SC could be a lot of fun. That would solve your crew weight issue. Heavy makng it hard to move on the beach and less responsive to wind gusts, but a smooth ride.

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Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
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smfinley

21's are heavy, but with a modern sail and taller mast the 21SC could be a lot of fun. That would solve your crew weight issue. Heavy makng it hard to move on the beach and less responsive to wind gusts, but a smooth ride.

As a 21SE owner would it be feasible to cut down the beams to legal width? I understand the tramp and shrouds would need to be shortened but that doesn't seam too difficult. Would loosing the beam kill performance?

I'm starting to lean towards the 21 again, I have a nice 16lb cruise n' carry outboard I would love to have on my next cat to greatly expand my ocean access here in the rocky north east.

car_guy

chump23

Do any of you guys have any experience with Mystere boats? I have seen a few 6.0's listed for sale, and am interested in how they compare to an I20, or even a Nacra 570.

http://www.catsailor.com/…flat&Number=51009&page=1

Pretty much everything you need to know about the Mystere. Older pre spin design like the Nacra 6.0.

Well, I learned that the Mystere 6.0 is fast and rugged; however, the original rudder system had issues, and non-anodized aluminum has corrosion problems. I learned a lot about mixed-metal corrosion!

Interesting read, and it gave me some things to think about, but I'm really more interested in the OP's questions regarding crew weight, rigging time, and user friendliness. Anyone knowledge in these issues care to chime in.



Edited by chump23 on Mar 29, 2016 - 01:04 PM.

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Hobie Getaway
Prindle 18 - Sold
South Padre Island, TX
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I am fairly new to the 21 and haven't taken the beams apart yet to look inside. They are interesting, each corner telescopes independently. So there is a chance you could secure the beam in the collapsed location with little modification required. However I am not sure if there is enough structure/support when collapsed. at a minimum you would likely need to drill holes to allow the beam to be bolted in the collapsed position. I also wonder if a cross bar swap with an SC would work, or if the mast base is different. I know the SE masts are very hard to find.

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Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
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The top decks been the 21se & SC are completely different. I think the 21SC may use the same cross bars as the miracle 20... which gives me an idea....

car_guy

As a 21SE owner would it be feasible to cut down the beams to legal width? I understand the tramp and shrouds would need to be shortened but that doesn't seam too difficult. Would loosing the beam kill performance?

Reducing the beam on a catamaran is a fairly straight forward mechanical task. You are sacrificing a percentage of your righting moment but not much else in the way of performance. Righting moment is a function of width and also a function of ballast. If you give up width you can always make up righting moment with more ballast ie heavier crew. You can also add wings to gain back width. Trap out on the wings and you add a bunch of righting moment.

The most critical part of the job is dealing with the dolphin striker. The dolphin striker supports the compression loads of the mast. You have to get this right. (On Supercats this is an easy task, Aquarius sells an internal striker that slips into the front beam.) Dealing with the tramp is easy, cut the middle, fold it back, add some grommets and center lacing, done.

The side stays and forestay can all be reused, how? Easy, Remove the mast hound, do some geometry calcs, then measure precisely, you reattach the hound to the mast, somewhere between 1-2 inches higher on the mast, this will take up all the slack in the stays. Trust me it is not much. (you will have to shorten the bridle wires to reuse the forestay, these are the only two wires that need to be shortened or custom made) Don't forget to plug the unused holes on the mast to reseal it.

I narrowed a Supercat 20 from 12' down to 9' (giving up 25% of the original righting moment) and do not have any regret what-so-ever. It is a terrific, fun, fast and easily trailered boat.



Edited by havliii on Mar 30, 2016 - 12:04 AM.

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'life is too short to drink cheap beer'
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Hobie already did it with the H21 sc. It's "formula" hull was designed for racing (H21se) and with wings is a comfortable 13' wide cat for 3-4 adults. With wings off it's a standard 8'-6" width for trailering. The large amount of dry storage make it ideal for coastal camping/recreational sailing. The downside of being underpowered can be solved with a more efficient/powerful square top main and reacher which is what we did. All 3 sails are roller furling which makes for easy handling and we have a 2hp Honda outboard that gets us in and out of crowded launch areas easily. We searched for a year to identify the ideal beach cat for a seasoned big cat/H18/Nacra 5.2,5.8 sailor to introduce young kids to sailing comfortably, without giving up speed. We find the H21 sc to be ideal for several days of coastal hopping in Baja or out to the Channel Islands. So far we love the boat and can rig it in about an hour from the trailer. My family loves the speed and simple uncluttered layout and sail controls. Trampolines are clean and clear for guest comfort and we wrapped the wings under the mesh in 3/8" EVA foam to cushion the tubular frames. If you are not racing, the boat is plenty fast, even for me, and can handle a wide range of wind conditions due to its lower 29 foot mast height and boom furling main. Hobie made an optional boom tent for overnighting on the main tramp. The boat has the simplicity and indestructible toughness of a smaller Hobie with the carrying capacity of a 21 foot hull. I traded a little speed and lightness for a lot of comfort and turning on my kids to some epic cat sailing adventures. I'm surprised that there are not other cats like the H21sc that fill a niche for those like myself that like sailing long distances on my cats.