What have some of you P18 drivers been using for mast rake.... to the Fity - 5 out yesterday and still had a heavy helm with the rudders rake all the way forward....

Thanks

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John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
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John,
The last measurement I remember from the local Prindle dealer (who raced an 18), was 18 to 20 inches back from the mast at the black band (max downhaul) with the cat level. He put a wrench on the halyard and let it hang so he could measure.

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Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
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Edited by klozhald on May 16, 2016 - 06:18 PM.

Thanks Bob

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John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
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Are you absolutely sure that your rudders are in the locked down position and are staying so. If they are not you will surely have weather helm.
I have owned numerous Prindles and have always carried the mast straight up on every one and never had to change it.
You can check the rudders on a trailer or while on beach wheels to see how much resistance it takes to kick them up.
It is almost always the rudders if you have weather helm.

I am a former Prindle dealer

HULLFLYER

I have owned numerous Prindles and have always carried the mast straight up on every one and never had to change it.

Thanks for the info... everything checks out... the rudders locked and there was no slop, along with it needed a good kick to break them lose.

Curious though... we tried the straight up mast years ago when this was in vogue with the 18-2 and 19... and the NACRA's with the classic 18 and the 16.... We seemed to have no upwind performance, and a problem with leeward helm even with the rudders raked all the way forward. From what I understand with these boats (P16 and Classic 18) is you're suppose to have a little weather helm that is facilitated by mast rake. Also with the mast straight up we noticed an uncontrollable spin out from time to time, that is the boat would dive to leeward and then spin (gybe) or would pitch-poll. Which back in my 20's was pretty cool so long as I didn't catch the boom upside the head..

How did you guys overcome this with the mast straight up? I would love to go this route as much my sailing will be screaming beam and broad reaches.



Edited by JohnES on May 17, 2016 - 10:27 AM.

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John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
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Lots of factors.
same jib as always? (different jib will effect CE)
same mainsail?
lee 0r weather helm
in this rare even I will agree with hullflyer "It is almost always the rudders if you have weather helm."
(or lee helm)

Quote

How did you guys overcome this with the mast straight up? I would love to go this route as much my sailing will be screaming beam and broad reaches.

Another possible problem could be rudder alignment
With Prindles we never had a toe in but kept the leading and trailing edges the same
Measure up 22 inches on the rudders and check
I have even came across boats that had the rudder castings reversed, with Prindles the logo is on the outboard side
Always be sure the rudders are in the locked down position while on the water, if I have a heavy weather helm that is the first thing that I check. head up unsheet main and jib and reset. Some times the lines will stop the cam from locking all the way

MN3

Lots of factors.
same jib as always? (different jib will effect CE)
same mainsail?
lee 0r weather helm
in this rare even I will agree with hullflyer "It is almost always the rudders if you have weather helm."
(or lee helm)

Asymmetrical hull boat... Adjusting the rudders to clean up the helm is a big no-no.... You really want to fix this with mast rake....

HULLFLYER

Another possible problem could be rudder alignment
With Prindles we never had a toe in but kept the leading and trailing edges the same
Measure up 22 inches on the rudders and check
I have even came across boats that had the rudder castings reversed, with Prindles the logo is on the outboard side
Always be sure the rudders are in the locked down position while on the water, if I have a heavy weather helm that is the first thing that I check. head up unsheet main and jib and reset. Some times the lines will stop the cam from locking all the way

Thanks... that is all done, spent an hour or two setting up the helm when rehabbing this boat.... Even have all new hardware in there..... again I am 99% sure the rudders are not the problem.... I am thinking my mast is raked to far back.

But, I am still intrigued by your having the mast straight up on the Classic 18.... besides the mast, what other settings did you guys have...

Also, years ago. they had all the Prindle dealers out to the factory in Santa Ana, CA..... and they had a big hootnanny on the beach in Long Beach, CA... got a chance to meet Randy Smyth as he was putting a clinic for the dealers.... were you there by chance... we may have met... I was helping the local dealer with some of the logistics... that is what you get for owning a van!

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John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
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"Asymmetrical hull boat... Adjusting the rudders to clean up the helm is a big no-no.... You really want to fix this with mast rake.... "

Gotcha, I should have added the disclaimer "on my boat"

MN3

"Asymmetrical hull boat... Adjusting the rudders to clean up the helm is a big no-no.... You really want to fix this with mast rake.... "

Gotcha, I should have added the disclaimer "on my boat"

Just pulled my copy of Catamaran Racing for the 90's off the shelve, dusted it off, and reviewed Chapter 6... (pages 70 & 71). Seem that using the rudder angle of attack to balance the helm is a not a recommendation for ALL boats..



Edited by JohnES on May 18, 2016 - 02:35 PM.

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John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
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****UPDATE****

Had the Prindle out yesterday.... redid the mast rake down to 16" aft from 20" and the problem is solved... just a slight pull on the rudder which is what we want.

Also, had my 10 year old son out helming the boat... he is a natural and is picking up the concepts pretty quick...

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John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
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