Here we go. This is the reason why it's not a good idea to install a port in front of the forward pylon to deal with a crunched soft spot. Yet, folks seem to not be able to resist the temptation and it's potentially very dangerous. If you want a port/bag for storage and to access the inside of the hull put it between the pylons.

https://www.youtube.com/w…pQ7eJgY&feature=youtu.be

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Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
MacGregor 25 (formerly)
Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
NACRA 5.0 (currently)
High Point, NC
--

I love when someone is selling a used 16 and they mention in the ad that they installed bow ports for more storage and inspection like its some kind of selling point, pretty much a tattoo that there has been delamination. It scares the heck out of me. 16s are tough boats but once the deck goes soft in front of the front pylon Im done.

I am betting it is (was) a rental boat. Three big guys on the boat - lots of weight.

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Ted
Hobie 16
South Carolina Lake sailing
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Wow- and nice catch on the GoPro!

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Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

Wait, is this your boat?

Quote

Here we go. This is the reason why it's not a good idea to install a port in front of the forward pylon to deal with a crunched soft spot.

I am sorry to the boat owner, but (IMHO) i don't buy it that it was the port's fault.

when ports are properly installed... they are strong and are typically more robust the the fiberglasa they replaced. and should not induce a hull failure.
when cutting a huge hole in your deck (85% lets say) - you should reinforce it with some epoxy and glass -

I say: that was a boat that was "out of warranty" (not new) , that hull was soft to begin with, and the boat was overloaded with weight by 1/3, good wind, sheeted tight and the weakest link - popped... that's what they do when you over stress things.... esp already weakened "things"

(yea maybe the port didn't help any, probably was not glassed around the cutout - with stringers like it should have been)

I think it's interesting the windward hull snapped. I would have guessed the submerged hull to be more stressed, but this broke right at the port center-line, and the bridle pulled the hull in, dropping the forestay. Is that normal for the windward hull to fail first? Anyway, the deck is clearly the structural member that would prevent the lateral failure, and the port was at the epicenter of this failure.



Edited by tominpa on Jan 13, 2017 - 10:05 PM.

--
Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
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I know its strange, but under the heavy loads of windward weight and the mast/rigging pulling HARD leeward i'm not surprised. That's how I Dismasted my 20 when a shroud broke. You'd be amazed how much force is pulling up on the windward hull at bridals/shrouds while going fast. The leeward hull has some water cushion to spread the weight.
The point. Forward of the crossbeams need to be 100% solid AND un-altered.

--
Tim Grover
1996 Hobie Miracle 20
Two Hobie 14's
1983 G-Cat Restored
Memphis TN / North Mississippi
--

Based on the hardware/sail pattern/clear anodize, this Hobie 16 was probably pushing 40 years old. It's unlikely that a boat that old would not have some degree of delamination. Combine that with three guys on the boat pushing it hard (at least one out on the trap) and it's not surprising that the hull failed. I agree that putting access ports in front of the front crossbar is generally a bad idea (especially on a H16) and makes the boat more susceptible to this type of failure. The hole for the access port creates a discontinuity in the load bearing deck material which causes a stress riser and the last few seconds of the video show the crack passing through the forward edge of the port hole. It also looks like the deck around the access port is "oil canned" inward which would indicate that the deck in that area was soft.

Bottom line - only the owner of this boat knows what condition it was in, but you've got to be smart when sailing an older boat. Make sure it's seaworthy and if it isn't, it's probably time to retire the boat.

sm

MN3

Wait, is this your boat?

No, not my boat.

MN3

I am sorry to the boat owner, but (IMHO) i don't buy it that it was the port's fault.

when ports are properly installed... they are strong and are typically more robust the the fiberglasa they replaced. and should not induce a hull failure.

Totally disagree with this. There may have been some deck delam (and that is typical on old H16's at that spot), but a port cut in like that absolutely weakens the structure, properly installed or not.

tominpa

I think it's interesting the windward hull snapped. I would have guessed the submerged hull to be more stressed, but this broke right at the port center-line, and the bridle pulled the hull in, dropping the forestay. Is that normal for the windward hull to fail first?

Yes, it is typical for the windward hull to fail in this scenario. As I'm sure you've noticed, when there's much breeze at all, the windward shroud is tight and the lee shroud is loose. Similarly, the windward bridle is much tighter and SNAP.

--
Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
MacGregor 25 (formerly)
Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
NACRA 5.0 (currently)
High Point, NC
--

Quote

Totally disagree with this. There may have been some deck delam (and that is typical on old H16's at that spot), but a port cut in like that absolutely weakens the structure, properly installed or not.

well i may be wrong... i am no engineer but i still FEEL it is due to weakened hulls, not the lids

From Matt Miller of Hobie
(2006 )

Ports forward on a 16. I don't really advise it, but have seen tons over the years. The ports are pretty stiff. 4" to 5" ports should be OK in this case. They are commonly used to ventilate the hulls and keep them dry between sailing adventures.

It is critical to be sure the deck is free of delamination though. That is a big problem and can cause the complete failure of the hull structure. The deck is the biggest latteral stiffness component. With the deck delaminated, you could fail a hull and break off the bow. This does not require rough conditions either. Sheeting the main pull back on the forestay and up and in on the bridles. This highly stresses the bows as they are pulled together.

_________________
Matt Miller
Director of Parts and Accessory Sales
Warranty and Technical Support
Hobie Cat USA


https://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3211&hilit=ports+cause+failure

Wait, are we arguing over why a hull failed on a 40 year old highly stressed fiberglass boat? I want in on this. It failed because it was really old, probably delaminated, had a deck port, was way overloaded and being sailed hard (and fun). Pick a couple of those.

Effect doesn't indicate a cause, if I show you a 40 year old boat being sailed hard with front deck ports and it doesn't fail I'm not going to claim that means front deck ports are great.

Alternately I've seen a lot of failed hulls on boats that don't have front ports, after seeing those I could claim that lack of deck ports causes hull failure.

It's winter, I'm cranky, anyone else?

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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Quote

It's winter, I'm cranky, anyone else?

it's tuesday and i can't sail... UGGGGgggggg! come on sat!

inside my deck:
maybe i will add some backing plates to those bolts



Nothing like intimately knowing the inside of your boat
http://www.thebeachcats.c…nc=viewtopic&topic=16179



Edited by MN3 on Jan 17, 2017 - 07:56 PM.

Quote

Alternately I've seen a lot of failed hulls on boats that don't have front ports, after seeing those I could claim that lack of deck ports causes hull failure.

It's winter, I'm cranky, anyone else?

Quite correct, as is the logic that life is a sexually transmitted event that incurs a 100% mortality rate
I just arrived home from a month in New Zealand & Australia. Bloody warm in Oz, Sydney set a record yesterday for the warmest overnight temp recorded, 31C. The Australian Open, in Melbourne was playing in mid 30's, & those poor sods in the Tour de Australia,(Adelaide) did the first leg of 145km in temps over 40C, that's 106F!
Not many Cats in NZ, saw one of unknown make on the beach in Tauranga. Oz has many more, Melbourne has a great Club, right on the beach, & they have miles & miles of beach, with not much on it.
While doing the hike from Spit Bridge to Manly Beach, (don't want to do it again on a hot day), we came across a fleet of Grommets, quite small Grommets, sailing a dozen or so Opti's.
I mentioned to my wife, how in the Hell are those kids going to be safe, sailing in an extremely crowded bay, full of moored leaners/stinkpots?
Not to worry, they tethered each Opti about 10' apart, then towed them several kilometers, in two lines out to open water. I'll post some photo once I get my gear unpacked.
No, I'm not cranky. To cheer you up I'll send The BeachCats some CASH$$!! I sold some of the legacy Nacra decals, & will donate all proceeds to TBC.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

DamonLinkous

It's winter, I'm cranky, anyone else?

Cheer up Damon! Overhere the lakes starting to freeze up,
instead of being grumpy, you also can see the beauty of it.



Before we know its april, and we can start sailing again.

Grtz, André



Edited by catmodding on Jan 19, 2017 - 07:26 PM.

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Tornado (80's Reg White)
Prindle 18-2 (sold)
Dart 16 (hired and hooked)
13 mtr steel cutter (sold)
Etap 22, unsinkable sailing pocket cruiser.

Amsterdam, the Netherlands
--

Quote

No, I'm not cranky. To cheer you up . . .

that's very nice of you

catmodding

DamonLinkous

It's winter, I'm cranky, anyone else?

Cheer up Damon! Overhere the lakes starting to freeze up,
instead of being grumpy, you also can see the beauty of it.

Beautiful picture, I can appreciate the beauty, from a distance.

Hey why not put that beautiful Tornado in the container Bob Hensen is bringing to the USA for the Florida 300? Sailing in the warm waters of the Florida Keys in May!

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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Heck you guys are complaining about being unable to sail - here, across the Canadian prairies we'll be lucky to get the boats i9n the water by the end of May - and even then it is iffy as the lake may be clear of ice but also very few cottage occupied and if you get into trouble you are on your own. I seldom launch until the middle of June and even then it depends whether there is help id you lay the boat on its side. Hopefully climate change will alter all that.

Lakeemma

No worries Andre, I live in Memphis TN 10 miles from Damon. We get about 4weeks of cold weather here a year, the other times its in the 50's and 60's Dec- March...... then it's 70's+ F. 80*- 110* April thru November, Heck its gonna be 70* here this weekend Jan 21st. No complaints from us unless the wind is under 10mph.

Global warming is a hoax Failed Gov't

My buddy snapped his hull from a botched epoxy fix...epoxy improperly mixed forcing it in too hard ballooning laminates and making things worse. The sun and fat friends didn't help lol.

--
Tim Grover
1996 Hobie Miracle 20
Two Hobie 14's
1983 G-Cat Restored
Memphis TN / North Mississippi
--

lakeemma

here, across the Canadian prairies we'll be lucky to get the boats i9n the water by the end of May...

Lakeemma

Don't worry, the air is warm and the water is soft in May in the Florida Keys!

Follow in the footsteps of last years Canadian team and come on down for the Florida 300.
https://www.sailseriespro….com/racing-as-a-family/
https://www.sailseriespro…ional-again-sergey-duko/

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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--
Hobie 16 (3 formerly)
MacGregor 25 (formerly)
Chrysler Dagger 14 (formerly)
NACRA 5.0 (currently)
High Point, NC
--

[/quote]

Hey why not put that beautiful Tornado in the container Bob Hensen is bringing to the USA for the Florida 300? Sailing in the warm waters of the Florida Keys in May![/quote]

That idea is so tempting, Damon. Unfortunately work won't let me.
I will follow the race on the web tough.

Grtz, André

--
Tornado (80's Reg White)
Prindle 18-2 (sold)
Dart 16 (hired and hooked)
13 mtr steel cutter (sold)
Etap 22, unsinkable sailing pocket cruiser.

Amsterdam, the Netherlands
--

Quote

.epoxy improperly mixed forcing it in too hard ballooning laminates and making things worse.

expanded? or got too hot and melted?

what brand epoxy?



Edited by MN3 on Jan 20, 2017 - 07:09 PM.

Awesome video. This happened to an H18 at a regatta I attended years ago, and I always wondered what it looked like when it happened. A couple of observations on the video:

1. Unless this is an effect of the fisheye lens, the front crossbar is compressed downward suggesting a loose dolphin striker. This is also apparent by some movement I think I see in the dolphin striker post relative to the crossbar.

2. After the capsize, it appears the bow deck is delaminated. That could have been a result of the fracture, but I think the cause was probably the other way around.

3. Both crew members are hanging out on the shroud, which I suppose could be inducing more load on the entire rig including the bridles/forestay.

My old H18 hulls had some significant delalmintation that I repaired with the injection method. I had a small delam repair forward of the crossbar that spooked me. Then one day I polished the boat up and saw a slight waviness on the inboard starboard bow just ahead of the crossbar. I wrote the boat off for channel crossings or any heavy weather sailing at that point. I then replaced both hulls and the boat is rock solid again.

--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

Quote

My old H18 hulls...

You got the most out of those hulls!

Bill, great to see you here, hope all is well. I've meant to do it in the past but I've assigned you the esteemed Five-Star rank of "Online Pioneer" for all you did with the On The Wire eZine, long before I had ever done TheBeachcats.com.

I hope you'll accept this honor.

--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

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Thank you sir! Not only will I accept it, I will drink to it. (I was going to drink anyway, but now I have an excuse.)

Yeah, I beat the crap out of that boat. The old hulls are laying in my yard. I was thinking of cutting doors in the decks and making giant coolers out of them.

--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

Quote

Thank you sir! Not only will I accept it, I will drink to it. (I was going to drink anyway, but now I have an excuse.)

I'll drink to it too!

Party time!!!

--
Marty
1984 Hobie 16 Redline Yellow Nationals, "Yellow Fever"
Opelika, Al / Lake Martin
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