I had to replace the mainbeam on my Nacra Inter 20 due to a crack at the dolphin striker. Now I need to reinstall halyard and tack line cleats. The old halyard cleat was a spinlock (a very old one). I hear that they can slip in spin halyard applications. The old tack line cleat was a harken cam cleat. It did not hold the tack line well last season, but that may have been due to age and line issues. What do folks think of using two harken cam cleats, one behind the other, to get a really confident hold on these lines? The forward cam cleat for both lines would have a fairlead attached to the top of if, the rear one would not for easy cleating and uncleating. The halyard and tack lines will be covered Marlow Excel Racing 5 mm. Thanks.



Edited by traphappy on May 25, 2017 - 12:32 PM.

Since you are starting fresh with a replaced beam, put the spin halyard cleat on the mast. The beam placement was old school. A Harken swivel cleat will do it.

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Philip
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I like the mast placement idea, and I know at least one person on this site has done it without any damage to the mast. Is it OK to use a stainless pop rivet in a carbon mast? I would coat in Tef-gel first, but worry that the expansion of the rivet during installation could damage the carbon mast? Maybe not? I know that the manufacturer used rivets in the mast, but I don't know what kind they used and if it mattered. Thanks.

I have a spin lock on my mast
i use 4mm (possibly 5) robline
I have never had an issue

I believe the old spinlocks used a plastic "brake" - they switched over to alloy and i believe that handled the issue

MN3, What boat do you have? I was curious about the performance of the new spinlock alloy brakes.

mystere 5.5 (sail it 100+ days a year)
mystere 6.0 (hardly ever sail it- trying to sell it cuase i don't need 2 - and it was in mint condition - every time i sail it i scratch it and die a little)

I have NEVER had a spin lock slip on me with my set up (both mystere's have the same spinlock on the mast, my tack line on the 6.0 is also a spin lock - never slipped, i have a large spin lock in the mast track of my 6.0 for "off the hook" reefing - never has slipped either (only used a few times)

I've had more spinlocks fail on me than I can count. I have 3 dead in the box. This includes a set purchased in 2014/2015 that I'm pretty sure have alloy cams. That set may be adjustable and the line was just too small, but it worked fine for a year then failed. Switched back to a normal harken cleat.

You definitely want the headbanger on the mast. I would ask Nacra how they are doing that same attachment on the N17 and F20carbon, but I suspect with a normal pop rivet. Discussion here: https://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/93803/re-rivets-into-carbon-fiber#Post93803

You likely want a rivet like this: https://www.mcmaster.com/#pop-rivets/=17sllhz

You could also use a rivet nut, https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-rivet-nuts/=17slm65, but in a more corrosion-resistant style. Something similar is what they use on carbon bike frames for attaching water bottle holders etc.

Also, you want the headbanger installed high enough up on the mast that it is generally above the head height of the crew.

The Harken cam cleats come in two versions - plastic cams & aluminum cams.

The teeth on the plastic cams will eventually wear out as the line passes over them allowing the control line to slip. For this reason, always use aluminum cams in high load or critical applications. I've used Harken cam cleats for many years on mainsail downhaul applications which are extremely high load and a small line and have never had an issue when using the aluminum cams (not so with plastic cams).

sm

+1
and they support their products

Loads of great info and experience here. Thanks for the tips. Really appreciated!

Just checked my Amazon Harken 150 cam cleat order. I got the aluminum cams

Spinlocks for the spin halyard won't just fail, the will disintegrate. (and usually at the worst time). Got the t-shirt and have seen it many times.

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Philip
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samc99us, I really like the mast mount idea, and thanks for the information. I'm going to explore it for next year. Not sure that with other projects, I'll be able to do the mast mount right this year though. Might just go with two Harken 150 cams on the beam this year. I will leave the spinnaker cleat mount for last, in case I figure out a safe way to mount to the carbon mast.

Trap,

Its not that big of a deal. You can probably rivet straight to the mast, I just recommended a pop rivet that has a wider base than standard. McMaster is very easy and painless to order from-they are better than Amazon FYI, especially if you have a problem (Amazon is a complete failure when it comes to lost packages and customer support).

The one issue is you do need a turning block on the trampoline a bit outboard of the mast base. Go find a Nacra Infusion or any other F18 and you will see the correct setup.

Also, FYI, depending on how your tack line is setup, you can very very easily cut a slot in your self tacker with the line. There is a reason that on the new boats the tackline cleat is on the backside of the front beam underneath the tramp.

Lot's of great information to chew on here! Thanks! Incidentally, I'd like to learn how to taper spin halyards and other lines, but don't have the time to do that now with work and other boat projects underway. So, I am ordering a halyard from a sailing supply store. Based on the old, untapered spin halyard, an 80 ft line will be more than long enough. I am going with Marlow Excel Racing 5 mm. Since I don't know the exact length, I am thinking to order the line with 28 ft exposed Dyneema with a splice in the end. This would be the retrieval side of the line. Then, I will shorten (if needed the other end and attach to the head of the spin with a bowline knot. Do my lengths seem appropriate? Is 80 ft long enough and am a removing too much or too little cover from the retrieval end? As mentioned above, I am removing 28 ft. My main priority for this tapered halyard project is to avoid burning holes in my new spinnaker. The boat is a Nacra Inter 20 with a midpole snuffer. Really looking forward to information from a fellow N20 sailor. Thanks!

Your good. Step and rake the mast and adjust with the spin rigged. Make sure to add a stopper ball above your bowline.

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Philip
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Make sure to add a stopper ball above your bowline.

why do you need a stopper ball on the head?
the only reason i can think of is so your bowline doesn't get jammed in the block at the top of your mast...



Edited by MN3 on Jun 01, 2017 - 08:07 AM.

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I'd like to learn how to taper spin halyards and other lines,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aol6bSQLo4

The stopper ball prevents damage to the line and the sail at a highly loaded part of the line. It also prevents the block from getting chewed up.

Trap, I recently built a tapered spin halyard for an N20 buddy. Took about 20 minutes but not my first rodeo. We ended up at 86' in total length of line purchased if I recall correctly. 50' or so of Marlow Excel Fusion in 6mm and 36' in dyneema. This was tapered so the dyneema was on the halyard part. It is generally critical that you get the overlap (where the taper happens) at the cleat as this tends to thicken that part up and let it hold properly. You can de-core the Marlow Excel Fusion at the tail where it goes up the kite which helps reduce weight there.



Edited by samc99us on Jun 01, 2017 - 03:03 PM.

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The stopper ball prevents damage to the line and the sail at a highly loaded part of the line. It also prevents the ball from getting chewed up

gotcha (did you meant "prevents the SAIL from getting chewed up"?

Fixed above MN3. The halyard turning block can wear as without a ball you are point loading it (and the sail/line) I use the smallest balls available from APS.

Halyard turning blocks are an interesting discussion. I've been using a Harken T2 40mm block for 2+ years now. Its the same weight as most all smaller blocks, has low friction, doesn't melt when I hoist at Mach 3, and has been reliable. I went this direction because I made a mistake and am running a heavy 8mm halyard but I can say with confidence this is my go to setup for a serious distance race or situation where it matters and the minor wind age and weight penalty are acceptable.

I've also had good luck with the Ronstan 30mm Nylatron Orbit blocks. They don't melt. The 16mm Harken Airblock is another good choice and is generally a bullet proof block.

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Fixed above MN3. The halyard turning block can wear as without a ball you are point loading it (and the sail/line)

Gotcha - that makes a lot of sense

I think i am using a standard Harken 22mm Single Block - I have burned one or 2 up in my day - I think they also make a high load version of it (or they used to at least)

i am over-due to replace this block as well as the dynema bail it rides on - this almost guarantees me a blow out this weekend - hope i remember to replace it



Edited by MN3 on Jun 01, 2017 - 03:45 PM.

One nice thing about the T2 blocks and similar are they don't chafe the dyneema bails for all intents and purposes. The halyard, block and bail I'm using have been on the boat since 2014. I may replace them but wear isn't the issue, its my OCD nature of keeping things new.

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I may replace them but wear isn't the issue, its my OCD nature of keeping things new.

peace of mind knowing it shouldn't break during a race is a good thing!

btw -now that i look - it is ronstan that has a high load 20 mm block
i have burned up harkens but i don't think i have burnt up a ronstan

My experience is that Harken is a more bullet proof product in the same size range (29mm vs. 30mm ronstan). Part of that is how the blocks are load rated-Harken specifies yield as the maximum load, whereas Ronstan specifies ultimate strength as the maximum load. Anyway, I think either the Harken T2 29mm block or the Ronstan 30mm block will get the job done for most people. I like the Nylatron bearings inside the Ronstan 30mm block as you won't melt the bearings in a fast spinnaker hoist or when hoisting loaded.

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My experience is that Harken is a more bullet proof product in the same size rang

I totally agree but i think they are pretty close in quality

i LOVE harken's support and usually prefer them (plus they are American made)
example: my 55mm rachomatic 8:1 blocks died after a long life - i wore the bearings out after only 1000 sails or so

I called harken - they said ship em back - i asked what will they do if they are shot (i had no receipt and was probably out of their warranty period) they said they will replace free of charge unless they found it was due to negligence (i.e. they were being used in a way that was over loading them) - in which case they will sell me a new set for just above cost.i asked what the cost would - it was a nice discount

when i spoke with harken they said - yup they are shot, we will send you new ones FREE - but i said "what if i want to upgrade to the 75mm" - he said "sure - no problem, we will charge you only the difference" so i did. I got a set of 75mm 8:1 for a few $100



Edited by MN3 on Jun 02, 2017 - 09:47 AM.

Yes, that has been my experience with Harken as well. Ronstan is very good on service too I should point out.

Upgrading to 75mm blocks seems like complete overkill. Even on the Nacra F20 Carbon 55mm harken gear is used on the main and that is a much bigger sail than almost any boat out there (except maybe the ARC22, and even then the Carbon 20 likely has higher loads given its design and the foiling nature of the boat). As you pointed out, the 55mm gear lasts a long long time. I may consider replacing my lower block before Worlds or a Tybee 500, but that is generally because the ratchomatic mechanism tends to stop working correctly after some years (the cams wear out).

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Upgrading to 75mm blocks seems like complete overkill.

the f20's use a 10:1

When i spoke to the techs at harken they asked about my boat and sail area. They said if you are using too small a block, that would explain your bearings wearing out.

i didn't tell them that i have run non stock tornado sails - and added a purchases and turned them into 9:1 and even 10:1 on occasion - I asked them if i was close to being maxed out - they said they weren't sure but it was pretty rare that someone wears out main blocks bearings

and since I had recently purchased a bigger boat (mystere 6.0), i decided for a few bucks, overkill wasn't a bad thing - esp if it would prevent me from blowing them out

I wont disagree they were probably not needed



Edited by MN3 on Jun 02, 2017 - 12:39 PM.

F18's also use 10:1's on Harken 55mm blocks (same exact setup). I would go 12:1 on the F20 as it is a much higher sail load; we were fully maxed on downhaul and rotation and starting to drop traveler in less than 15 kts of breeze, probably closer to 12-13. Needed more diamonds but the only downside to mainsheet purchase is lots of mainsheet length and trouble easing sheet in light air.

FYI, the lower block for a 8:1, 10:1 and even 12:1 mainsheet are essentially the same. For the 8:1 and 10:1 they are identical and you can upgrade the lower block on an 8:1 to a 10:1 with a pair of harken 40C blocks with the correct mounting attachment (I don't have the part number handy).

I turned my last 8:1's into 9 and 10:1's by running a dynema double eye'd line through the center and added the extra 40mm or 2 into the system
but they burnt up

part of why i upgraded was i like to use fuzzy dynema blends for my main (either robline racing sheet or salsa) and they didn't run so well through the 40mm blocks so i figured they would run faster in the 75's (that use 57mm as the small block, nor 40mm)

Boy do they run fast
Another huge benefit (for me at least) is that these blocks pay out line MUCH faster than the 57mm ones

and since i have an archaic travler car (20+ year old beam with x groves on top for old style car with to run on), the ability to pay out faster (but controlled) is key when using the travler
and i can dump my entire main 2 or 3x faster than before (nice when about to capsize)



Edited by MN3 on Jun 02, 2017 - 03:06 PM.

That is a solvable problem-use a tapered mainsheet. The thick part of the mainsheet only ever runs through the 57 mm blocks in my setup. This is why it is important to learn how to build your own tapered lines, and to use them in high purchase setups.

What is the weight delta between the 57mm and 75mm blockset? I would think that's the issue for racing.

442 g for the 57mm base (sans the 40mm block and tackle)
805 g for the 75mm base (")

340 g 57mm quad top
772 g 75mm quad top

That's definitely on the porky side for a set of blocks. Not something I would consider if you are seriously racing, but a good option for lots of distance sailing.

I don't race at all anymore

I MIGHT do "round the island" this year, but only so i get to crew on a F31R