I'm currently in the mist of selling my keeled boat, a Catalina 34 and simplifying my sailing experience.
I live a couple hundred yards from the bay in Breezy Point, NY. I have kept the boat in a nearby marina for over a decade, but the costs is getting to much, with the new house and all. I often use the beach to take off in my kayaks and have always had this image of dragging a beach boat onto the water for a beautiful late afternoon sail. The traffic can be a bit busy on the weekends, but mid week is always quiet. We always get nice wind, but im thinking of taken advantage of the lighter air of early morning or late afternoon to keep it manageable at least until I get used to a non keeled boat. What's a good size cat to be able to solo and take kids or family out in. My cat experience is limited to a few vacation rentals over the years.
Thanks
Ron

Hobie getaway

--
Greenville SC

Offering sails and other go fast parts for A-class catamarans
--

I second the getaway. I have a Prindle 18, but it wasn't spacious or comfortable enough for my family.
I just bought a Getaway, and am excited to get the whole family out. Nothing else out there does it better.

--
Hobie Getaway
Prindle 18 - Sold
South Padre Island, TX
--

The Getaway is a great family boat

--
Supercat 15
Windrider 17
Several Sunfish and Sunfish clones
Ratboat built from Zuma and Sunfish parts
Shallow water sailor in the Delaware Bay
--

Waves might fit the bill, at 245 pounds, much easier to move solo. Not as comfy obviously, but super simple. There is some thread here about anticipated versus real number of people that will be going with you. Probably lower than at first glance. Yesterday we didnt to set up the Tornado for a one hour sailing window (funky CT shore winds),. So the Wave got in the water.. Any sailing is good sailing!

--
John

Nacra 5.0
CT
--

rone58

What's a good size cat to be able to solo and take kids or family out in.

Your simple question is not so simple. On a catamaran, solo and family are two sides of the same coin.

Will you store the cat with the mast up or down?
On a trailer or on the beach?
Your setup time and effort will vary greatly between just these four factors.

If you sail solo, will you also be setting up the cat solo?
If this is the case, and you are serious about being able to sail solo - solo setup, launching, getting it back into storage alone should be a primary concern in your cat (and trailer) selection.

That said, I love soloing my cat, but do it very seldom - like once a year on the lake. I prefer to share the experience with family and friends who are passionate about sailing too. I never solo in the ocean. I have a friend who does, on a cat exactly like mine, but he is crazy and has sailed his cat in the same waters for three decades, and with that experience comes the wisdom (or insanity) I lack.

If you could get help setting up when you solo, then do you like working on boats? Would you be willing to look at a 25 year old G-Cat that has an end-to-end tramp for your family? Maybe a Hobie 18 with wings? A Prindle 18, or NACRA 5.8? Possibly a Dart 18? Are you physically beefy enough to solo a family cat? You may have to right it yourself. If fun is your goal, there are lots of choices out here, but no perfect solutions. Any selection will be a compromise. Explore the variables, make a choice, and get sailing.

My $0.02



Edited by klozhald on Jun 12, 2017 - 09:52 AM.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

There are hundreds, if not thousands of posts here about the different aspects of solo sailing a catamaran. This is a much more complex topic than soloing a monohull.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

If you plan to pull a cat up on shore, be sure to get a set of Cat Trax wheels. Life is a lot easier. Beach cats come in two basic flavors...with or without centerboards. If you are looking for easy solo handling, a skeg hull without center boards can be a lot easier.

--
Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
--

Lots of good information shared by catamaran sailors. Buying your first cat can be quite daunting, especially if you lack the experience of piloting these rockets. I concur with Klozhald that a basic, simple boat, like the Dart 18, would be ideal to learn on and continue to grow and develop your sailing skills. Good luck in your search. Bob Martinez, Dartman.

Getaway is a great family cat - and probably the best for a first time cat'er
i think any of the 16 footers can do the job too (hobie, prindle, gcat, etc) - just depends on your preferences (rotomolded vs fiberglass)

typically:
rotomolded are very durable but lower performance
fiberglass is less duarble but higher performance

Thanks for all the responses.
I will be keeping the boat on a Beach trailer/cart. Which was my next question, I watched you tube videos of the Hobie getaway. Looks good for a group, a bit large for solo. Question, with the right cart can I solo move the cat from the beach to the water?,
An back up the dune.. about 50 feet or more depending on tide??

Quote

with the right cart can I solo move the cat from the beach to the water?,
An back up the dune.. about 50 feet or more depending on tide?

Yes - beach wheels properly balanced at the center of effort (middle / balancing point of the boat) it is possible to move 400lbs up the beach solo with good technique . My cat is over 500 and i do it every week (often solo).

the trick is to remove all the weight from the boat you can (sails, cooler, even rudders sometimes for me) and then go up the beach at an angle - even turn (traverse) a few times if needed.

Straight up a steep beach will be much harder



Edited by MN3 on Jun 13, 2017 - 09:29 AM.

I do not think a getaway is too much for a person to handle solo, and I think anything smaller you won't really enjoy as a family boat. You will really enjoy the front tramp and wings, if equipped. As far as beach wheels, I find that having the ones with cradles makes life a lot easier, a little more expensive but worth it.

Gotcha..thanks for the guick response.
I know catamarans are all about speed, but I'm thinking there also about simplicity. I'm liking the option of the wing when it's suitable. I just want to cruise or daysail without the expense of a 6000$ a year marina and other expenses. I'm 200 yards from a great sailing destination, I'm figuring a cat will fit the bill.
Ron

Quote

, but I'm thinking there also about simplicity.

not really - sailing is not a very simple sport
getting proficient at all the aspects (upwind, down-wind, reaching, tell-tales, spinnakers, etc... = not simple / not rocket science either but it can be as complex as rocketry (just ask the guys designing the america's cup boats)

the bigger the boat, the more control lines
the more spaghetti all over the place


but the smaller the boat, the less the control lines, the less the fine tuning - the easier

you can make a hobie 16 sail with little or no knowledge (and having it trimmed wrong)
try getting a f18 or other complex race boat to go without having it trimmed correctly - not so easy



Edited by MN3 on Jun 13, 2017 - 11:35 AM.

I hear you,
My 15 years of sailing and owning keels boats will help, but I realize a cat boat will be a learning curve as well.
Thanks again,
Ron
Pearson Ensign
Cape Dory 27
Catalina 34

Quote

My 15 years of sailing and owning keels boats will help, but I realize a cat boat will be a learning curve as well.

oh yes, i forgot you had a sailboat
so they are about the exact same thing, only completely different :)

This site needs a "thumbs up" "like" "i second that" "great advise button" or something! I truly respect and value the experienced input. Reduces the guessing and possible dangers of damaging people and/or property. This is my fave cat site. At least 10x a week i'm saying to myself "Hell yes and i'm buying a round of beers, Rum or a firm handshake"
MN3 is top of the list! Gave Damon a flying cat decal for his new 4Runner couple days ago or he'd be #1 ( great guy )



Edited by fxloop on Jun 13, 2017 - 06:04 PM.

--
Tim Grover
1996 Hobie Miracle 20
Two Hobie 14's
1983 G-Cat Restored
Memphis TN / North Mississippi
--

Thanks Tim - i'll take the rum (and maybe a handshake too)

Hey Ron,

Great advice here so far. I hope you've also looked at the Nacra 460, 500, and 570. If you have any questions I'm happy to help.

These boats are just a simple as the Hobie Wave and Getaway but you get significantly more performance and excitement out of them. You can even get it with double trapeze and spinnaker set up. They lack the forward trampoline and wings of the Getaway but if you're looking for a better sailing experience then you should consider them.
If you're looking something to haul a ton of family members then a Hobie Getaway would be a great option. The Wave limits itself to sailing well with just one or two people, once you put more on it really lacks performance and space.

I sell rotomolded boats with another brand I work with. Both Fiberglass and Rotomolded have their place.
If you can respect your boat (not running it into things and etc) a fiberglass boat will ultimately be easier to take care of and last longer.
If you plan to run into things and want a tank then a Rotomolded Plastic boat is better, there are repair methods that are about the same ease as repairing fiberglass, but it will never look pretty.

-Todd Riccardi

note about the front tramp - they are great for holding lunch and light gear but are not really appropriate for people in most conditions (fine while parked, or if you have an issue upfront that needs attention). the weight is too far forward and will significantly increase the difficultly at low speeds and reduce the fun

wings too - great with wind but not so great in light air

Have you looked at an AC60? Theres one for sale in Miami right now, plenty of room for the family.

https://galveston.craigsl….org/boa/6141304361.html

Why buy it when you can just rent it for $3000 / day?
https://boatbound.co/boats/jsvqz#

The biggest difference I have noticed with cats coming from monohulls (Yachts) is that most cats tend to do one particular thing really, really well, while yachts try to do a bit of everything (and end op being really good at nothing in particular).

What this means is that you need to be scathingly honest with yourself with regards to what you need (vs what you want). Know thyself and thou willst know thy Cat! Or something like that

For me it meant drawing the politically incorrect conclusion that I wanted to sail solo and have one person or two kids tag along from time to time. I needed reasonable performance, didn't want to race much and had no money. So I bought an old Nacra 5.2 and have tailored it to my exact taste. It fits me like a glove and I'm a happy camper. But you have to be prepared to kill your darlings and all those nice to haves. Then I'm sure you will have a much easier time finding a cat that will fit the bill.

Hey DennisMe,
Sought of got where you are coming from, and for sure I'm on the fence.
And there are definitely things you can do on a keeled boat you will never
be able to do on a cat. I'm leaning to try it, I can always go back, my 30
somethings in my life are game. Got to sell the 'Yacht' first, in the meantime
I'll checkout the videos and conversations on the forums..

Just get a Hobie 16 and be done with it matey!!! Lol!

--
Marty
1984 Hobie 16 Redline Yellow Nationals, "Yellow Fever"
Opelika, Al / Lake Martin
--

I just starting sailing a beachcat last season, though I only sailed small dinghies for a few years prior. I too wanted something I could sail solo and with my family. I found a g-cat 5 meter and have found it to be great for both. I sailed a H16 and a Getaway a few times which is what got me started. The 16 was too confined and I did not want to spend the cash for a getaway.
I kept the g-cat on the beach most of last year and used it a lot. I know a lot of people say the front tramp is not usable, maybe for high performance sailing but I have had as much as 3 teens or 2 adults up there without issue. Sure you are not going to fly a hull but it will sail just fine and easily sail past the monohulls. I did not buy it for racing I bought it for fun. Last September I was out with 3 adult men easily at the max capacity of the boat (none of them wear skinny jeans). While the performance was low we still were able to have a nice leisurely sail without issue. Though we did come close to a pitchpole (my fault) the extra weight actually helped keep the stern down. With myself and one or both of my daughters the boat is a blast. I take the wife, kids, cooler and gear and have great days on the water. Oh and my dog loves the front tramp.
We are on LI also and sail either out of west Hampton where I can leave the boat rigged on the beach or I launch from Heckscher park.



Edited by woofman on Jun 26, 2017 - 03:48 PM.

Quote

. I know a lot of people say the front tramp is not usable, maybe for high performance sailing but I have had as much as 3 teens or 2 adults up there without issue. Sure you are not going to fly a hull but it will sail just fine and easily sail past the monohulls.

Kinda like saying - I know my motorcycle has only seating for 2 but i can fit my whole family on it - sure it can be done, but is it wise? safe?


Reasons why weight on the front tramp is not good:
1. this boat is already prone to pitch pole - having weight up there exacerbates that issue
2. weight forward changes the CE (center of effort) meaning the rake of the mast and rudders is not optimal and will degrade performance
3. having weight up front makes tacking much harder - not to mention beating your crew up with the jib / watch that clew plate - it can take out an eye
4. having weight up front makes slow movement tactics MUCH HARDER (i.e. launching)
5. overloading a 400lb sailboat is typically not that big of a deal but get caught in a squall line and you are risking lives and putting people in a (potentially very) dangerous situation - please be certain about the weather before you grossly overload your boat



Edited by MN3 on Jun 26, 2017 - 03:15 PM.

Pretty bad analogy with the motorcycle. I have been riding since teenage years and that is just silly (though maybe not in some Asian countries). I grew up on the water and my professional life is in safety, security, first response and emergency management for 30 years. To tell everyone that this is so dangerous is a bit overkill. Though I guess there are those that require warning labels. ALL watersports can be dangerous, so can driving, walking and many other things we do in day to day life. I feel a 100 times safer putting my kids on the cat than I would a 60mph wave runner. After many, many hours sailing the g-cat last year I have easily come to understand the need for balance and using caution where necessary. But to say the front tramp is useless is a false statement. Learn the craft you are using, use common sense and caution and go have fun!

1. Not if properly balanced.
2. I am not seeking performance with extra passengers, but again proper balance.
3. Tacking has only been slightly reduced unless there is no balance.
4. Again, balance.
5. I am always aware of the weather even if I am not "grossly overloading the boat". (I did say to max capacity, not grossly overloaded)



Edited by woofman on Jun 26, 2017 - 07:05 PM.

Quote

Pretty bad analogy with the motorcycle. I have been riding since teenage years and that is just silly

It's a perfect analogy -
You can put 4 or 5 on a motorcycle, and it's not gonna explode but if something unexpected happens, your in a much worse spot than if you had only the amount of bodies the bike/boat was designed for

Quote

To tell everyone that this is so dangerous is a bit overkill.

I never said it was "so dangerous" - I said "overloading a 400lb sailboat is typically not that big of a deal but get caught in a squall line..." (actually rated at 360lbs)

Quote

But to say the front tramp is useless is a false statement.

Also not what I said - "they are great for holding lunch and light gear but are not really appropriate for people in most conditions"

Quote

I am not seeking performance with extra passengers, but again proper balance.

so to get your boat "balanced" you overload your cat?

Quote

I am always aware of the weather even if I am not "grossly overloading the boat". (I did say to max capacity, not grossly overloaded) ... ... ... I was out with 3 adult men easily at the max capacity of the boat"

4 adult men = close to 800 lbs
360 lb boat...

What is "max capacity" of a 360 lb beachcat?



Edited by MN3 on Jun 27, 2017 - 10:18 AM.

MN3, have you ever sailed a G-Cat? It sure doesn't sound like it. I too carry kids on the front tramp all the time without any problems whatsoever.

jsb4g

MN3, have you ever sailed a G-Cat? It sure doesn't sound like it. I too carry kids on the front tramp all the time without any problems whatsoever.

lol - yes. many times. I have several friends whom own them and i am good friends with the designer / manufacturer of the boat. I have personally helmed 5.0, 5.0 turbo & 5.7 and one of the only people in the world to have crewed on a power g-cat 36' as well (no sailing skills needed for that one).

Again, i never said it can't be done... i listed the reasons why it is not optimal above...

But questions for you:
Are they up front because there isn't room on the main tramp or just cause they think it's fun (which it can be)?

What size g-cat do you have? (5.0, 5.7, 21', 36'?)

How do you keep your jib from hitting your kids on the front tramp during tacking / gybing?

How much do your kids weigh?



Edited by MN3 on Jun 27, 2017 - 10:00 AM.

MN3

jsb4g

MN3, have you ever sailed a G-Cat? It sure doesn't sound like it. I too carry kids on the front tramp all the time without any problems whatsoever.

lol - yes. many times. I have several friends whom own them and i am good friends with the designer / manufacturer of the boat. I have personally helmed 5.0, 5.0 turbo & 5.7 and one of the only people in the world to have crewed on a power g-cat 36' as well (no sailing skills needed for that one).

Again, i never said it can't be done... i listed the reasons why it is not optimal above...

But questions for you:
Are they up front because there isn't room on the main tramp or just cause they think it's fun (which it can be)?

What size g-cat do you have? (5.0, 5.7, 21', 36'?)

How do you keep your jib from hitting your kids on the front tramp during tacking / gybing?

How much do your kids weigh?Edited by MN3 on Jun 27, 2017 - 10:00 AM.

To answer some of your questions, they alternate between the front and rear tramp depending on conditions, but spend most of their time on the front tramp. Sometimes, one stays up front and we have three people (myself included on the back). They like it up there because it is fun, there is more room, and because getting hit with a jib is far more comfortable than being hit with a boom (i have a 5.0). Actually, they the jib is a non-issue. When we tack, they duck under the jib. As far as what is optimal, that is in the eye of the beholder. I find it a lot more optimal with them up front than being in my way on the rear tramp. I've owned three boats. A prindle 16, a hobie 16, and a gcat 5. Now that I've had the front tramp, I could never go back to the prindle or hobie unless I were sailing with me and a crew of 1 and no one else. I don't race. Instead, I use my boat to spend the entire day on, often island hopping. We take food, drinks, beach toys, etc... I could do none of this without the front tramp. So to each his own, but it certainly isn't dangerous to have kids on the front tramp if you know what you are doing. Getting caught in an afternoon squall is dangerous regardless of front tramp use. I have never pitchpoled and don't go out in 20+ mph winds. My kids both swim very well, and I have taught them what to do in the event they go overboard. I also take a standard horizon hx870 and a waterproof smart phone that allows me to keep an eye on the weather.

What is your response to the G-Cat promotional documents posted on this website in the identification section? Some of your suggestions seem inconsistent with the things you are saying. A part of me is interested in trying a hobie getaway for even more room and comfort.



Edited by jsb4g on Jun 27, 2017 - 08:53 PM.

promotional documents...

Those have never been misleading ever right. I think the commercial for the pet rock made it sound dope as well

Pet Rocks
The best part is that it doesn't require food, water, or attention. I know I got sick of my pets dying all the time. It's already potty trained and if it happens to get dirty you can just wipe it off. Can be trained to do awesome tricks. "play dead" or "lay down". You can teach it to attack as well, does require the owner to participate a little. Comes in handy when you're in harms way. It can hold It's breathe forever and dry off quickly. So it will be safe at the beach or pool. Please note they swim to the bottom to find, be with, or a wait their rock friends.
How misleading is that?
sorry for the off topic.

--
Prindle 18 w/ wings, Prindle 16, Prindle 15, current
Hobie 16 in rebuild
2 Hobie 18 past
NACRA 5.2 past

Saint Cloud, Florida
member Lake Eustis Sail Club
http://www.lakeeustissailingclub.org
--

Quote

They like it up there because it is fun, there is more room, and because getting hit with a jib is far more comfortable than being hit with a boom

Cool - i get it
you didn't say how much they weigh - the reason i asked was: it is incredibly different to be out with a few small kids on the front tramp (and getting caught in weather) vs having 2 adults (or three teen) up there or having 4 adults (close to 800 lbs) on a 5.0. also they must be pretty "small" to be able to fit under the jib.

And while we are talking about weight - I spoke with an engineer who owns a 5.0 and asked him about the volume and displacement. He said he worked up the numbers on our friends 5.7. He said "the hulls are aprox 16.5 cubic ft each - that means they would submerge with 1000lb of weight (each hull) - so put 800 lbs on a 5.0 and spring a leak (not uncommon on beach cats) and you may actually sink (i have seen this happen to a P18 with 4 onboard)

BTW if the boom is an issue, and performance is not the main objective - 5.0's do pretty well without the boom (you may need to add a multi-hole clew plate and add a big batten on the main but not expensive)

Quote

As far as what is optimal, that is in the eye of the beholder.

I stand by my 5 points - they are based in fact - not opinion
Having weight up there (on a front tramp) is not optimal for: light air handling, moves your CE forward which may cause lee or weather-helm, effects tacking and gybing, AND asking for pitchpole in heavy air (as this boat is already a bit prone to pitchpole)- and the more the weight the worse.

You may say it is optimal for room and kid smiles (i don't disagree) - but that is not what i am talking about - I am talking about boat handling and safety (using a worst case scenario - getting caught in weather - which is something that happens to many sailors despite their best efforts)

Quote

Getting caught in an afternoon squall is dangerous regardless of front tramp use.

for sure but MUCH worse with people upfront as your boat handling will be degraded.

Quote

but it certainly isn't dangerous to have kids on the front tramp if you know what you are doing

I would personally say: under light air conditions it is not a big deal, but has the potential to be dangerous in anything but light air (someone getting smacked with a jib clew or being beaten up by the sail or being thrown into the forestay or overboard during a bow-stuff). - and the more weight and/or the more forward the weight - the worse

Quote

What is your response to the G-Cat promotional documents posted on this website in the identification section? Some of your suggestions seem inconsistent with the things you are saying. A part of me is interested in trying a hobie getaway for even more room and comfort.

(haven't seen it) but there is no doubt that g-cats are a great fun and family cat that can also be piped up to be very performance tuned. Also knowing Hans, there may be a little bit of bias opinion in any G-cat marketing

Again - I never said it can't be done - i said it isn't optimal (for sailing) and down right dangerous to try and sail this boat with 800 lbs with real air -

We camp every year and grossly overload our cats
It seems every time it's time to go home, it is blowing 30
nothing quite as "exciting" as sailing mast only (or jib only) with all your camping gear, guitars, and dog (i now tow a jon boat so i don't have to overload my cat)

(edit)
Just found this on the site -



Is that what you are talking about? If so, i don't see anything about sailing with people on the front tramp - of course he does say "over 80sq ft for you and your family to enjoy" - he also mentions putting a tent on the front beam - none of which implies that is for sailing.



Edited by MN3 on Jun 28, 2017 - 10:06 AM.

Quote

How misleading is that?
sorry for the off topic.

Do they offer rescue pet rocks?
I'd rather get one that's around a pound

Interesting debate. Got to say that MN3 knows his stuff and always offers excellent advise on this site. He is usually spot on and seems to really enjoy sharing his wealth of knowledge with us in these forums for free. My advice would be to just take his advice into consideration.

--
Pete
2001 NACRA 450 SOLD
2000 NACRA 500 TOTAL LOSS
2004 NACRA INTER 20 SOLD
2016 NACRA 500 Sport
DeLand, FL
--

I would like to add that Pet Rocks live forever by the way.

--
Marty
1984 Hobie 16 Redline Yellow Nationals, "Yellow Fever"
Opelika, Al / Lake Martin
--

I figured out what you do with the kids. You just have to add some long boards to your cat.

you may want to make sure they are wearing their life jackets.

--
Prindle 18 w/ wings, Prindle 16, Prindle 15, current
Hobie 16 in rebuild
2 Hobie 18 past
NACRA 5.2 past

Saint Cloud, Florida
member Lake Eustis Sail Club
http://www.lakeeustissailingclub.org
--

1.) I understand you are talking about achieving maximum speed and handling. I was not (and neither was the other guy). I was taking issue with your suggestion that the front tramp cannot be used for people safely.Ive done it alot without incident.
2.) I agree that you can't sail a boat with all the weight in the front and little weight in the back.
3.) The reason I made reference to the promotional material was that the front tramp was clearly intended to provide extra space for sailing families (which you picked up on).



Edited by jsb4g on Jun 29, 2017 - 04:50 PM.

Quote

I would like to add that Pet Rocks live forever by the way.

I am not able to make a commitment like that: how long do pebbles live?

Quote

I figured out what you do with the kids. You just have to add some long boards to your cat.

that's still to close for me, i would need a longer stick ! :)

I appreciate your offer, by all means, come on over and have a sail/rum with us in dunedin (or soda)

I will fight the urge to respond to all your points, i am certain you all got where i was going with them but i do want to make 1 point clear: I didn't mention speed. my comments are not about sailing faster or "better" - but were 100% about handling and safety, and in big air a lack of handling is unsafe

I am very happy to hear that you enjoy sailing your g-cat, esp with family and kids!

I guess your safety point is where people could be misled. You should qualify that by defining exactly when it is unsafe or less safe. 10+ knots, 15+ knots, 20+ knots? I do 15 knots all the time with people on front tramp. No big deal. I have no handling problems. I am not interested in sailing 20+ knots.

i stand by my original thesis: having anything more than a few pounds in front of your beam is not optimal for sailing performance

the only exception is if you are a skilled skipper and know weight placement well... in a very light air reach, deep downwind or in shallows and working hard to keep those long rudders out of shallows, sitting in the right spot in front of the beam can be a very good tactic in a race, but a terrible idea in med - heavy air - ymmv



Edited by MN3 on Jun 28, 2017 - 10:11 PM.

MN3

i stand by my original thesis: having anything more than a few pounds in front of your beam is not optimal for sailing performance

You may be right, the bows on this Getaway do look a little low.



--
Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN

How To Create Your Signature

How To Create Your Own Cool Avatar

How To Display Pictures In The Forums.
--

Quote

You may be right, the bows on this Getaway do look a little low.

they are obviously on the cusp of: capsize, pitchpole or implosion from it too!

With regard to optimum weight distribution, there is no one size fit all. It depends on conditions, angle, etc... It is true that you never want the bulk of the weight up front, but it is also true, in certain conditions, that too much weight at the back of the boat is not "optimal" (your term) either. Do a search for backward or reverse pitchpole.



Edited by jsb4g on Jun 30, 2017 - 10:57 AM.

Quote

Prior to my reference to reverse pitch poles, I meant to say that too much weight at the very back of the boat is not "optimal" in all conditions.

I respectfully disagree -

Quote

backed off some of your original thoughts on that by using the edit feature

I have edited to make my points clearer and try to take emotion out of it - i haven't changed my toughts on any of my points

But i see you are quoting me - sure i would be happy to amend that statement:
MN3: "note about the front tramp - they are great for holding lunch and light gear but are not really appropriate for people in most conditions (new)besides putting a few munchkins up front and sailing slow in very light conditions, or trying to capsize"(/new)

Quote

Bottom line is that in 15 knots or less, there is no safety issue with having kids (not teenagers) on front tramp if the person in charge of the boat knows what he or she is doing and doesn't overload the front with more weight

All due respect, i disagree -
say your putting around with 4 people on your boat, at 8 knots and get a unforeseen (or seen but mishandled) gust of 50% (to 12 knot), if you have a few teenagers on the front tramp - your may find your boat stuffing its bows (which wouldn't have stuffed w/out 2 monkeys up there). Also made worse by your rudders not having the usual amount of "bite" nor response due to the CE being moved forward, (also possibly causeing wetherhelm that you don't normaly have, so if you drop the helm you may unexpectedly swerve) throwing crew into sail/forestay/pond - which would have otherwise been a 100% controllable puff without risk of stuffing your bows, or would have been much controllable and easier to recover from

I know that's a lot of "what if" - but i see them happen all the time (sans the people sailing with weight on their front tramp)
You mentioned sometimes raising your jib to accommodate crew is fine in light air - as you said previously - it effects the boat in a puff - yup it adds power to your cat by raising the sail - in less controllable way - just another reason why people up there isn't optimal imho

THIS IS PURE OPINION: please don't take it personally
Also having little kids (not sure how little is too little), or even small or big teens, or adults up there, with no hiking straps for feet to secure to the boat, and (in the case of kids) no adults around to grab a kid who may make a bad movement at the wrong time .... are also not the safest moves in my opinion..

- i've sailed with kids on my boat and i've crewed on many types of boats that had kids on them. Every time i felt the same (and it is proven true time and time again for me) - kids better be very well behaved and listen well - cause there are a couple dozen ways to get hurt on sailboat - i have dropped little kids (and their mothers) off after 15 minutes on my boat cause the kid wouldn't sit or listen - i am not suggesting your kids are not well behaved - i have no idea -

and disagree with telling anyone "there is no safety issue" - again, jib sheets and flying clew-plates at every tack and gybe, the occasional mis-cleated sheet and your jib can be flogging the heck out of bodies up there.

You can mitigate some issues, but IMHO your statement that there are "no safety concerns" is not correct and should not be disseminated

Know the risks .. then do as you feel is within your skill set and pain threshold, but don't pretend there aren't risks (yes i know, walking, driving, airplanes, volcanoes, aliens.. All risks -

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With regard to optimum weight distribution, there is no one size fit all. It depends on conditions, angle, etc.

Good racers and knowledgeable sailors (trying to be fast and efficient ) move weight around the tramp and place it in the right spot for each condition

It is one of the skills used by winning racers and efficient sailors utilize.



Edited by MN3 on Jun 29, 2017 - 03:48 PM.

I have hundreds of hours with people on the front tramp without incident to back up my assertion concerning safety. I also question the honesty of several of your claims, and I happen to know for a fact that you have been dishonest about one of them.



Edited by jsb4g on Jun 30, 2017 - 10:58 AM.

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I have hundreds of hours with people on the front tramp without incident to back up my assertion concerning safety. I also question the honest of several of your claims, and I happen to know for a fact that you have been dishonest about one of them.

cool - enjoy!

btw - i can't think of anything i could have said dishonestly, and i am a pretty honest person, so feel free to call it out - i'm curious



Edited by MN3 on Jun 29, 2017 - 04:59 PM.

Wow, i am sorry for starting this! While there is something to learn here I still believe the risks are minimal, much more so than other water activities people partake in on a regular basis. I teach safety for a living and have for a long time. I take more precautions with my family than most and I pride myself on my knowledge and the education I provide to both children and adults. While I am an adventurous person and love a good bit of adrenaline I never approach any adventure haphazardly, actually quite the opposite. I have done things far more dangerous than cat sailing, some of it rescuing people that do not take such precautions. As far as my children, they learned to swim very young, my older daughter is an active lifeguard, my younger daughter can probably tread water side by side with the best swimmers around. No one goes out on my boats without safety devices, being educated and following rules. While I don't consider myself a great swimmer I have been boating well over 30 years, paddled class 5 rapids around the country, and additionally am a certified advanced EMT.
I do believe MN3 makes some very good points and maybe I should not argue the point, as many likely will not take the precautions or the time to educate themselves on both the boat handling skills and life safety skills. For me, I quickly understood how this boat handles, the balance point for optimal safety (not performance) and the limitations of the design through mechanics. Utilizing these learned points I will say that there certainly can be a minimal range between safe amd suddenly in trouble, but that is over certain wind speeds only.
Be safe out there!

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Wow, i am sorry for starting this!

Don't be sorry - I'm not

I am always up for a good debate - helps to correct or reinforce my knowledge and knowledge and critical thinking for others.

I am curious why he would think i would lie about any of these things, i have nothing to gain by from it so i look forward to him explaining his accusations - either way doesn't really matter to me if he believes me or not ...

Hope you got something out of this discussion

I dont want to get into more back and forth with you, so I will leave it at this: in 4,403 posts (as of now), there is a lot of material from which to find inconsistent statements you have made.



Edited by jsb4g on Jun 30, 2017 - 10:59 AM.

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I dont want to get into more back and forth with you, so I will leave it at this: in 4,403 posts (as of now), there is a lot of material from which to find inconsistent statements you have made. I found another one when looking through them last night.


I also question the honest of several of your claims, and I happen to know for a fact that you have been dishonest about one of them.

You call me out and say i lie but you wont back that up = laughable

you looked through my 4400 posts and founds some "inconsistencies" ? = ridiculous
of course my opinions and methods have changed in my 40 years of sailing and 19 years of owning beach cats

i again challenge you to point out where i have been "caught" by you in a lie



Edited by MN3 on Jun 30, 2017 - 09:07 AM.

Don't like the word "inconsistencies"? Ok, I will be more blunt: Going through a few of your posts over the last few years, I was quickly able to determine you made up facts to support your argument in this thread. Oh, and I never said looked through 4400 posts....I guess that is just something else you made up to make yourself appear more reasonable and make me appear less reasonable.



Edited by jsb4g on Jun 30, 2017 - 10:59 AM.

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h, and I never said looked through 4400 posts....

" in 4,403 posts (as of now), there is a lot of material from which to find inconsistent "

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I was quickly able to determine you made up facts to support your argument in this thread.

Prove it smart guy

you have challenged everything i said, suggested i had never sailed a g-cat, tried to tell me i have waffled on my statements, and now call me a lair without the balls to back it up ...


carry on



Edited by MN3 on Jun 30, 2017 - 10:26 AM.

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.I guess that is just something else you made up to make yourself appear more reasonable and make me appear less reasonable.

No need for me to try and make you look the fool - your doing it to yourself with every word

esp the bad advice you have stated - "Bottom line is that in 15 knots or less, there is no safety issue with having kids (not teenagers) on front tramp" and "I meant to say that too much weight at the very back of the boat is not "optimal" in all conditions."

Damon, please close this thread.....

--
Tim
Collierville (Memphis), TN
Supercat 15--sold :(
Hobie monocat--given
Vanguard 15--traded for...
Nacra 4.5--sold
Nacra 5.7
Hobie 14–sold to make room for...
Supercat 17–sold
--

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Damon, please close this thread.....

why ? cause 2 people don't agree with eachother?

no big deal - happens in these forums

MN3

you have challenged everything i said, suggested i had never sailed a g-cat, tried to tell me i have waffled on my statements, and now call me a lair without the balls to back it up ...


carry onEdited by MN3 on Jun 30, 2017 - 10:26 AM.

That is fine by me as long as I have the balls to sail with people on the front tramp of a G-Cat.

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That is fine by me as long as I have the balls to sail with people on the front tramp of a G-Cat.

Balls over brains - (and the inability to take consider advice) great recipe

carry on



Edited by MN3 on Jun 30, 2017 - 11:02 AM.

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h, and I never said looked through 4400 posts....

" in 4,403 posts (as of now), there is a lot of material from which to find inconsistent "

Read that more carefully.

MN3

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That is fine by me as long as I have the balls to sail with people on the front tramp of a G-Cat.

Balls over brains - (and the inability to take consider advice) great recipe

carry onEdited by MN3 on Jun 30, 2017 - 11:02 AM.

I did consider it against hundreds of hours of actual experience of sailing with people on the front tramp safely, which flies in the face of your advice about it being inappropriate and unsafe to put people on the front tramp. Based on that experience, I quickly rejected your advice. I gained confidence in the wisdom of rejecting your advice when I later read some of your older posts.



Edited by jsb4g on Jun 30, 2017 - 11:12 AM.

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I dont want to get into more back and forth with you,

hmmmm - seems kinda funny for you to stated that - but ok

Here are my FINAL comments to you and anyone else reading this sh!t show you have turned this into:

I (again) stand by my original thesis

put weight up on a front tramp and you are changing the handling and performance of a beach cat - get hit witha gust and that may become a cap-sizable or harmful issue - period - FACT

having sails, jib sheets and clew plates around the front of the boat, all switching sides at EVERY tack and gybe: is a hazard to eyes, faces and people - and that is just one of the good reasons to not have crew up on the front tramp - period - FACT

can it be done? of course it can
go forever sans problems- sure, possible

btw - i own 2 cats, both have some type of front tramp and wings .... i'm not throwing out guesses here



Edited by MN3 on Jun 30, 2017 - 11:53 AM.