Hi,

Looking to get a righting bag, does anyone have experience / preferance out of the two main supppliers Colorado Bag Co and Murrays (or suggest any other suppliers):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3…%3AIT&fromMakeTrack=true

https://www.murrays.com/product/01-3282/

Col Bag Co is 16"x24" 160lbs, Murray's is 18"x32" 250 lbs, so on the face of it my instinct is to go for the bigger bag, but heard lots of good things about the Col Bag Co bag, and there were some comments that Murray's bag leaked, and maybe the bigger bag is to much to handle?

Also what tackle is required; I see Murrays optionally sell the bag with a 4:1 system https://www.murrays.com/product/01-3280/, based on experience is that the right setup?

It will be used by me (200lbs, solo sometimes) to right a Nacra 5.2.

Thanks

Anthony

I use the Colorado Big Righting bag with my Hobie 21SE and an old Hobie 14 main block setup to right my boat. Also I have shroud extenders that make righting the boat easier.

--
Bill 404 21SE
--

bill40421SE

I use the Colorado Big Righting bag with my Hobie 21SE and an old Hobie 14 main block setup to right my boat. Also I have shroud extenders that make righting the boat easier.

Interesting, what ratio is that mainblock setup? Thinking about it I have an old small 6:1 main setup I could repurpose. Do the shroud extenders make much difference? So far I had avoided that option due to having to make sure the mast base captive pin was still in place, getting the shroud connected again afterwards etc.

Thanks

Anthony

6:1 is overkill. You have to sink the bag, then raise it to about chest level. That can be 4-5 feet, meaning you would need 30' of line with a 6:1.
Go to this thread for the solution.
https://www.thebeachcats.…pic/topic/16703/start/20

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Edchris177

...Go to this thread for the solution. https://www.thebeachcats.…pic/topic/16703/start/20

Ahhh... I had previously looked at that thread but turns out I only saw the second page, I didnt see the first page with your post on etc.

Thanks that helps a lot, looks like a Colarado Bag Co bag and a 3:1 setup is the answer.

Anthony



Edited by aquaaddict on Jul 12, 2017 - 02:48 PM.

Addict - that CB bag is smaller than the Murrays, but the Murrays is not at all easy to fill to capacity. The CB appears to have a flat bottom and holds its round shape well. So it might work better in a pinch. Efficiency counts if you're drifting fast toward a hazard.

I see that the CB has 4 balanced straps. Makes sense. Murrays only 2 long ones, so it wants to collapse all the time.

The Murrays blocks are great quality but overkill. They are heavy and sharp and you don't want them banging on your hulls or your head - trust me.

Murrays bag has a long top rope, intended to be flung over the hull and tied somewhere on your tramp. Not tied to a righting line. The rope is thin and pretty slick. if you actually tried to put 200lbs on this, I suspect you would see gelcoat damage.

Having your own short loop of soft rope over the hull and clipping your tackle onto this makes real sense.

I own the expensive Murrays bag and it frustrated me when it really mattered, so I would encourage anyone to try an alternative, tweak it a bit, and let us know how it works out.

--
Prindle 18
96734
--

Thanks for the interesting feedback on the Murray's bag, glad I didnt order one of them now. Thats a good point about the sharp/metal blocks and rope types, I'll get the composite ones instead and hang the tackle arrangement off a soft righting line.

I have ordered a CB Co bag and will put it together a 3:1 system based on the experience and explanations from edchris and will let you all know how it goes.

Some great info in this and the other threads, I am sure they will become a good source of reference.

Thanks

Anthony

One last tweak. Sew, or otherwise attach a strap or line to outside bottom of the bag. When you right the boat in a blow, it starts to drift. The bag becomes a sea anchor, & it can be hard to drag it back onboard, what with sails, lines etc all flogging around, & the righting line now under the hull.
You can grab the line & by pulling from the bottom of the bag, it collapses & comes aboard easily.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

FWIW, The Murrays bag system is almost the same cost as their full righting pole system, which seems to be much faster and easier to use.

--
Prindle 18
96734
--

Edchris177

One last tweak. Sew, or otherwise attach a strap or line to outside bottom of the bag. When you right the boat in a blow, it starts to drift. The bag becomes a sea anchor, & it can be hard to drag it back onboard, what with sails, lines etc all flogging around, & the righting line now under the hull.
You can grab the line & by pulling from the bottom of the bag, it collapses & comes aboard easily.

Great tip, these two threads are now pretty much a definitive how to guide

I have a carbon windsurf mast to try making a righting pole from as an experiment, when I get around to making that and have the bag it will be interesting to compare the effectiveness of the two.

Thanks

Anthony

Quote

Murrays bag has a long top rope, intended to be flung over the hull and tied somewhere on your tramp. Not tied to a righting line. The rope is thin and pretty slick. if you actually tried to put 200lbs on this, I suspect you would see gelcoat damage.

this is my 3rd from them and that is not how any of mine have been rigged

There is about 20' of line for the 4:1 blocks - that gives you 5' of area to work with (sea-level to shoulder height so you can push it out with your back)

The top becket on the blocks has about 6' of line that is meant to be attached to the righting line or tied around a hull - u can modify it with a carabiner, s hook or whatever you want



i have used these bags many times, on many types of cats, i have never seen hull damage (i am sure it is possible to dent/damage a deck lid lip or soft / old hulls -) if your worried use a softer/thicker more stretchy line or whip a jacket on the part of the line that would touch your hull, or whip a pool noodle around there...



Edited by MN3 on Jul 13, 2017 - 12:04 PM.

I expect to take delivery of a Murrays righting bag tomorrow. My boat currently has the big cat righting system on a bungie retractor under the tramp. Deploying that system requires pulling the righting line up to the front beam, then tossing over the hull which can be tricky, but works okay.

I was going to attach a second righting line with a carabiner attached to the bag, to toss over the hull. I would stow this under or over the center of the tramp. Any thoughts?

--
Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
--

I've seen a Hawaiian style set up in person
never the one you have

my guess would be:
you will prob find the bag is enough (with good technique) and wont need the current system (but wouldn't hurt to have both onboard)

Murrays sent only the line and pulleys, not the bag...still waiting on the corrected shipping. At this price you'd think they would get it right.

Anyway, plenty of line supplied to tie off to the mast base and throw the bag and uphaul over the hull.



Edited by tominpa on Jul 13, 2017 - 11:50 PM.

--
Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
--

I have the Hawaiian system on my P18 and it did not do the trick. Not enough outward leverage with lift her with 2 guys. It might work in ideal conditions, with plenty of wind assist. I wasn't good enough and lucky enough to make it work. I keep it there for purchase under the hull and as a chicken line.

Murrays' bag has a 7 ft line above the block. Extra long to adapt to different boats. For example you can't make a loop around the hull on the P18, except in front of the beam, so the tramp or mast would be the next choice.

But I love the idea of a righting line loop and have added it to my setup. Also a loop for my harness. I put a giant biner on the bags attachment line so I can hook onto something quickly, even if i'm banged up.

A second righting line is there for any crew. It can also clip onto a "V" bridle line, to double as a mooring/anchor line when I launch and land the boat solo.

Another disadvantage to the bag and block system I've discovered, is that it needs to be fresh water rinsed after every sail and then opened/hung to dry. It gets wet there on the tramp, even if you don't need it.

I picked up lots of great righting tips from other threads around here. Thanks everyone. Hope it all works as intended next time I Huli.

--
Prindle 18
96734
--

EdChris177

One last tweak. Sew, or otherwise attach a strap or line to outside bottom of the bag. When you right the boat in a blow, it starts to drift. The bag becomes a sea anchor, & it can be hard to drag it back onboard, what with sails, lines etc all flogging around, & the righting line now under the hull.
You can grab the line & by pulling from the bottom of the bag, it collapses & comes aboard easily.

This is gold. Righting in weather and waves is hard enough without added gear making it harder instead of easier.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

I got the complete system just in time for a stationary front to setup shop over us. No winds and hot, humid conditions. I guess I'll hang in the pool for a day or two. The system seems pretty nice and straight-forward, but I don't see an easy place to attach a line to the bottom.

--
Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
--

An iron-on patch over a rope with a stopknot would be the easiest way. Would be nice to also have a floating rope, so long as it doesn't defeat your filling the bag.

Here's the official righting bag directions, care of Stan at Murrays. Hope you all can download it.

https://www.thebeachcats.…2d073c801478500c6cca93c8



Edited by nohuhu on Jul 18, 2017 - 02:25 PM.

--
Prindle 18
96734
--

nohuhu

Here's the official righting bag directions, care of Stan at Murrays. Hope you all can download it.

"ALWAYS uncleat your main and jib sheets before attempting to
right your boat to prevent the boat from sailing away without you, or with you
still in the bag. ALWAYS wear your life jacket and use good boating safety and
seamanship. ALWAYS hold onto the boat."

"or with you still in the bag." What the hell? I make sure there are no humans in my bag before use!

You don't actually need any blocks technically. I just have 2 loops on my righting rope. One for me to hook my harness on and one up above my head to put the bag rope through. If you lift the bag up while squatting on the boat as high as you can get it, it will lift out of the water as you squat out. Sure I don't have enough strength to lift it any higher while standing out from the boat so if it needs more water or I need to raise the bag a little higher to get the boat over fully I just squat back in, adjust, and go back out. The friction from the ropes is enough that it's easy to hold the bag up. One hand on the bag over my shoulder and one holding the rope coming back from the loop.



Edited by tamumpower1 on Jul 19, 2017 - 12:03 PM.

Quote

You don't actually need any blocks technically.

you don't actually need blocks on your main either - but they sure make it a lot easier

MN3

nohuhu

Here's the official righting bag directions, care of Stan at Murrays. Hope you all can download it.

"ALWAYS uncleat your main and jib sheets before attempting to
right your boat to prevent the boat from sailing away without you, or with you
still in the bag. ALWAYS wear your life jacket and use good boating safety and
seamanship. ALWAYS hold onto the boat."

"or with you still in the bag." What the hell? I make sure there are no humans in my bag before use!

I read that a few times too.

If you want a more comfortable position to support the bag, this one is designed to allow you to pull it over your head and shoulder, (like a purse rather than a knapsack). So I learned that's why it only has 2 long straps, (one of which is velcro, intended to be over your shoulder as a quick safety release).

Using a block to hoist the bag and yourself up AS the boat rotates also makes a lot of sense to me now. Righting systems lose leverage as you hit the water, especially when your PFD does. That block might give me an advantage when it comes time to try this solo...



Edited by nohuhu on Jul 19, 2017 - 11:56 AM.

--
Prindle 18
96734
--

yea, they need better technical writers for sure! lol

So, i mean no disrespect but i have to tell you i don't understand a lot of the other stuff you said. ...

& when i say "you", I am describing my method - ymmv

Quote

If you want a more comfortable position to support the bag, this one is designed to allow you to pull it over your head and shoulder, (like a purse rather than a knapsack). So I learned that's why it only has 2 long straps, (one of which is velcro, intended to be over your shoulder as a quick safety release).

Are you saying stick your neck in a loop of the bag?

Quote

Using a block to hoist the bag and (a.) yourself up AS the (b.) boat rotates also makes a lot of sense to me now.

a. I don't need the blocks to lift me, only the bag; to the optimal height to get behind it and hike out .I am standing on the inside of the wet hull ...
b. your boat will only rotate around (and other bad things) if your not on anchor...

For me: step one is to calmly and cleanly drop an anchor.. make everything much calmer and easier - stops the boat from drift and i can take a moment to breath and think

Quote

Righting systems lose leverage as you hit the water, especially when your PFD does. That block might give me an advantage when it comes time to try this solo...

you should be standing on the inside hull during 80% of this "operation". by the time you should "slide off" the inside hull ... your boat is already tipping into the drink. you should be grabbing the dolphin striker at this point to avoid "over righting" (capsize back the other way).


you are talking about this bag right?




Edited by MN3 on Jul 19, 2017 - 05:46 PM.

MN3

Are you saying stick your neck in a loop of the bag?

Yes. And it took a few reads of Murrays instructions to realize that's what they are suggesting. This is what they mean by being "in the bag". The safety strap is there to help you get loose, if needed.

I sense you're not really tempted to try it?



Edited by nohuhu on Jul 19, 2017 - 05:20 PM.

--
Prindle 18
96734
--

MN3

yea, they need better technical writers for sure! lol

So, i mean no disrespect but i have to tell you i don't understand a lot of the other stuff you said. ...

Shoots! I try to be precise, but some days are way better than others...

First, let's put the anchor discussion aside, as it's not part of the mix in Murrays righting plan. (I plan to carry one, though, as soon as I can find a good bag for it and a place to stow it).

When solo righting, keeping the bag out of the water until the boat is well past the tipping point is the key. Murrays suggests you hang onto the both sides of their cleated rope (no righting line in the mix either) and use the block's action if needed, to keep both you and your ballast clear of the water in a tough recovery.

I was referring this time only to Murrays bag and the instructions I just received for it. They really should produce a short video to show it in action.

--
Prindle 18
96734
--

IMHO - ymmv


"stick your neck in a loop of the bag" - at no point would I ever stick my head into the straps of a (theoretical) 250 lb bag of water that is attached to my boat. if a line fails, a knot unties, I slip off my hull (happens easily during righting) and I am in an incredibly compromising position - that is not safe at all


after reading those instructions from murray's i have come to the conclusion - they are morons or on crack:

"3. Position the bag so that the strap is over your shoulder, or you can place the strap over your head and across your chest (DON"T DO THIS). Be sure that the hook and loop strap is across your chest so that you can pull it apart to quickly free yourself from the bag if
necessary (you think you can release this before you get hurt if something goes wrong? - DON"T DO THIS)"

"4. When the boat begins to come up, pull in the uphaul line quickly enough to keep the righting bag just above the water"
This may be ok on a small 300 lb boat, but on a 400 or 500lbs boat, you don't need to sheet the bag up at this point - it should be high enough that you are hiking out - not sheeting

"5. When the boat is at the point where it begins to come over on its own, quickly slide through the strap supporting the righting bag to free yourself. " - Are you kidding me - i can't believe they print this


"6. Once the boat is righted, climb back onto the boat and resume sailing. As the boat moves through the water the bag will be aft where it can be grabbed at the bottom, lifted, and the water released."
So, sail away and try to grab this bag / sea anchor? Was this written by idiots?



Edited by MN3 on Jul 20, 2017 - 09:45 AM.

I just received the bag this week, and those instructions were "interesting". The page shows a small woman placing herself into the straps, and I'm not sure that would work for me. Anyway, I will make a point of capsizing the boat and will be sure to report back about my ride in the bag.

--
Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
--

Quote

I will make a point of capsizing the boat and will be sure to report back about my ride in the bag.

everyone should practice this skill -

fwiw - it can be much harder to right a cat with no wind so it may be good to have help around in those conditions

And fire up the GoPro, please!

--
Prindle 18
96734
--

Quote

I will make a point of capsizing the boat and will be sure to report back about my ride in the bag.

Make sure your boat is fully rigged, sails, jib, deck gear.
I could solo right the 20' Mystere, sans sails, when I was figuring out where to put knots etc. Once the sails were added, & got wet, it was a much bigger challenge.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--