The P19 restoral saga continues...

After dropping two grand on a set of new sails, I get the boat out in some decent conditions and the helm is all over the place. Checking the rudder rake I find one rudder raked way too far forward, and I cannot adjust it within range.

It turns out there are two different styles of rudders on the boat. Not sure if the castings are different. (When I get time, I'll reverse the rudders to see what I get).



See the photo. The rudder profiles and contours appear identical. But the holes are in different positions. The one with the holes closer to the rudder edge is the problem rudder (left in the photo). Adding to the mystery, this is the same rudder style that is installed on two other P19s in the yard.

What gives? Are there two different versions of the P19 rudder out there? If so, I am wondering if just redrilling the hinge boat hole will correct the problem or if I have to buy a new blade to match,



Edited by mattson on Sep 25, 2017 - 01:53 PM.

--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

I found that these (A&B) holes on the castings can be different.

I made some aluminum plate to bolt to a pair set castings I have. When I went to place them on the rudder casting on my P18 I could not get the holes to line up. It supersized me. I would have thought they would have some sort of jig set up to drill all the castings the same.

--
Prindle 18 w/ wings, Prindle 16, Prindle 15, current
Hobie 16 in rebuild
2 Hobie 18 past
NACRA 5.2 past

Saint Cloud, Florida
member Lake Eustis Sail Club
http://www.lakeeustissailingclub.org
--

i have lots of castings and spare rudders
most of the rudders are different size, and the holes don't match up

lots of changes over the life cycle of a cat - i would easily believe they made different versions

PS the 2 boards look different to me - the top right corner is different

mattson

What gives? Are there two different versions of the P19 rudder out there? If so, I am wondering if just redrilling the hinge boat hole will correct the problem or if I have to buy a new blade to match,

There are two sets of rudders that could have come on the Prindle 19. They are easily disceriable as one is cut flat on the deep end, and the other is rounded.
Photos here (scroll down):
https://www.thebeachcats.…ictures?g2_itemId=123714

You will notice that there are also two lengths of flat bottomed rudders. The shorter pair are for the P 18-2 and the 19. The longer ones are for the older P16, 18 and 15 cats.
To the best of my knowledge, all the castings are identical, though I am unfamiliar with the Prindle Escape castings, and they may be different. The rudders vary as mentioned, and there is another possibility. It is conceivable that a previous owner drilled holes in a different location to adjust for helm is a particular configuration. This was not at all common, but possible.

Does one of your rudders look like the hole has already been relocated? Because the castings are all the same, I expect the top of the rudders to be the same. Check this out against the other rudders "in the yard" and relocate the hole in the odd rudder out.

Pbegel here on the thebeachcats could shine some light on this. His experience with the Prindle line is considerable.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

The outline shape of the rudders are identical, and they are both the same length. The top right corner may look different due to the camera perspective. The holes do not appear to have been relocated. There are no signs of modification.

If I were to redrill to match, it would only be the hole that the rudder hinges on. The latch bolt would just extend further out as it is mounted shallower in the rudder. And to try to redrill the hole for the latch bolt is risky as both the location AND angle would be critical.

This is all really weird. If this is in fact a P19 rudder is suggests there are two versions of castings as well. This one is not compatible with the castings I have.

I left a message for Pete.

--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

must be two different castings, my rudders are same and match my castings

Castings are expensive; I doubt there are two. I measured 20 P-16/P-18 rudders on our beach. They were all 37". The lone P-19 rudders measured 35". Pete

There are two different rudders for the Prindle 19

These are for the MX version on the 19.. I believe they were needed to handle the extra power from the larger MX sail plan.. They kind of look like a NACRA rudder to fit a Prindle



Then there is the old style that is like the 15, 16, and Classic 18 rudder but a few inches shorter



As for the rudder castings they are all the same with the exception of there being a left and right casting that are, are you ready for this... stamped with an L or an R...

There is a difference in the arms coming out of the casting... For one group of boat I believe it was shorter and had a different bend to it.



Edited by JohnES on Sep 25, 2017 - 06:51 PM.

--
John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
--

mattson

The P19 restoral saga continues...

After dropping two grand on a set of new sails, I get the boat out in some decent conditions and the helm is all over the place. Checking the rudder rake I find one rudder raked way too far forward, and I cannot adjust it within range.

I can't speak for the Prindle 19, but for the 18-2's I have owned, I had 0 rudder rake on all of them. How for forward are you looking to adjust it to?

Also, how much mast rake are you carrying?

I know you are well aware that putting a Sq Top on changes all the dynamics



Edited by JohnES on Sep 25, 2017 - 07:06 PM.

--
John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
--

I'm not sure of the mast rake as I understand I've got to get the boat level then plumb bob it with the halyard. Just eyeing it, it doesn't look like much compared to other boats I've owned. As for the new square top main, it does not add any sail area. We recently laid it over the old stock sail and the lost area of the leech appears to make up for the portion of square head. That being said, I was looking to get 1/4 to 3/8 of the leading edge of the rudder forward of a line extending from the transoms. This is per the manual. Then I'll take it out, see how it feels, and adjust accordingly.

The crap shoot is that I have to assume the rudder that does not match anyone else's boat, but allows be me to adjust to the spec in the manual, is the right hole pattern. And if it is off by much, the spec measurement may not even apply to it.

Spoke with Pete and he is not aware of subtly different rudders. Only the dramatically different ones mentioned here. Maybe I've got a some sort of prototype boat that random parts won't fit onto. Goody. This could turn into:

1. Fill holes.
2. Drill.
3. Install.
4. Sail.
5 Repeat.

--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

mattson

That being said, I was looking to get 1/4 to 3/8 of the leading edge of the rudder forward of a line extending from the transoms. This is per the manual. Then I'll take it out, see how it feels, and adjust accordingly.

Actually I would go with a 3/8" to 1/2" forward rake on the rudders and take it out from there... Otherwise I think you may be chasing a ghost... It is a real PITA get it right..



Edited by JohnES on Sep 25, 2017 - 09:01 PM.

--
John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
--

In my early days of Hobie 16 racing, I took an old boat and raked the mast and rudders, getting it perfect on the first try.

Mast rake article I wrote here:
https://www.thebeachcats.…hives/v5-i1/feature2.htm

Then the follow up rudder rake here:
https://www.thebeachcats.…hives/v2-i7/feature3.htm

I nailed it on the first try. Maybe I'll get lucky again.



Edited by mattson on Sep 26, 2017 - 03:41 AM.

--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

There are 2 different styles of rudders for the P19 and P18/2
The second generation rudders are the ones with the rounded tips which also came with different rudder gudgeons which will set the rudder pins much farther aft.

JohnES

There is a difference in the arms coming out of the casting... For one group of boat I believe it was shorter and had a different bend to it.

The 19 MX rudder system was the odd configuration. The rounded rudders needed to be further aft, so the gudgeons on the transoms were extended 2" and the tube coming off the rudder casting was longer to get the tiller crossbar forward in correct position for steering.

People with regular 19's sought this rudder system as it seemed more stable and made the 19 easier to steer. The P 19 hulls were narrow and had almost no rocker, much like the Tornado from which it was inspired.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

Mine is fantastic..no need for MX rudders

Edited by carl2 on Sep 27, 2017 - 09:39 AM.

Just to clarify, we are not talking about two different styles of rudders.

Here's a photo showing the entire rudder. They are identical in every way except for the hole positions.



--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

mattson

They are identical in every way except for the hole positions.

Fill and re-drill will be the fix.
No idea how you ended up with that rudder. It is not an original configuration.
When you drill in the correct place you may find that some PO filled the old hole.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

mattson

Just to clarify, we are not talking about two different styles of rudders.

Here's a photo showing the entire rudder. They are identical in every way except for the hole positions.

I guess the question is going to be which hole is the right hole..

Measuring the few Prindle Rudders I have here I am coming up with:

From Top Of Rudder to Hole Center - 1 1/4"

From Leading Edge to the Hole Center 1 7/16"

These are rudders from a Classic 18, but they are the same casting so I am thinking may be the same measurement.

--
John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
--

Prindle 15-16-classic 18 all have the same rudders
Prindle 18/2-and P19 use a different rudder
They may appear to be the same but they are not
The distance from the top of the rudder to the portion that go next to the transom on the leading edge is different
The castings are all the same but the arms are different

I have a rudder from a Prindle 18 and it is noticeably different in shape.

For drilling, I have set up a jig to use one rudder as a model. They both slide snug into the jig with zero difference. Note that the locking bolts are both resting one of the wood blocks which I figure is a critical measurement. (The lines on the top rudder's leading edge were for rake measurements). I can hold a wood block at any point along the edges and the rudders match exactly. Only the hole positions are different. The chips where the rudders meet the lower transom are misleading, but top and leading edges in this area are the same.



What continues to bug me is that the rudder that matches the other P19s in the yard cannot be adjusted within the recommended rake range. The mismatched one can, and that is the one I am using the redrill the only hole that matters: The corner hole that acts as the hinge point. The holes for the locking bolts appear identical, save for the large hole providing access to the locking nut, where one is further aft than the other. Same for the other large holes that are just for knots. I've purchased new locking bolts from Murrays.

Busy this weekend, but I'll probably have her out on the water next weekend for a test.

--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

Mattson

What continues to bug me is that the rudder that matches the other P19s in the yard cannot be adjusted within the recommended rake range. The mismatched one can, and that is the one I am using the redrill the only hole that matters: The corner hole that acts as the hinge point. The holes for the locking bolts appear identical, save for the large hole providing access to the locking nut, where one is further aft than the other. Same for the other large holes that are just for knots. I've purchased new locking bolts from Murrays.

Hey Bill,
The geometry here is messed up. I understand your frustration.

Is it possible that a previous owner modified the:
1. Hull transoms (thicker or more angled)
2. Gudgeons drilled out or replaced with other types
3. Rudder casting pintle pins are different from stock?

Any of these could be the reason he ended up with a bad geometry and drilled out one rudder to try to fix it. When he found the re-drill was worse, he realized he was in over his head and sold the boat.

You have just pursued two of the other questions I had:
1. The length of the locking bolt being a strange size. The replacements from Murray's should resemble the stock ones.
2. Other holes being different. To a varying extent, the locking holes matter because they hold the locking bolt a specific distance from the casting. You mentioned that these are bigger, so possibly out of alignment?

My $0.02

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

Have not had time to post an update...

I mounted some spare gudgeons on a 2X4 and clamped it to my bench, using a second 2x4 running down to serve as an extended transom line. This allowed me to get the rake correctly in my work shop. On the rudder that was out of adjustment range, I filled the hinge hole with epoxy. Using a jig to hold both rudders in line, I used the good rudder as a drill guide on a drill press. I also filled the good rudder hole with epoxy and redrilled it just to reduce the wear. I replaced the latching bolts with new ones from Murrays, as the old ones had a small bit of wear. Put them each in the bench mockup and got the rake to about 1/4 ahead of the extended transom line.

I got the boat out last weekend solo and it was pretty much perfect on both tacks.

Previous to this, my first sail in decent wind was very unnerving, and left me feeling it was not the boat for me. Now, the boat is very controllable and comfortable. Just a few more minor adjustments and some testing in the rough stuff, and she should be ready for island trips.

Thanks to all here for the input!

--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

awesome!

btw - what are latching bolts?
Do you mean the ones used in the gudgeons ?



Edited by MN3 on Nov 10, 2017 - 04:11 PM.

MN3

awesome!

btw - what are latching bolts?
Do you mean the ones used in the gudgeons ?Edited by MN3 on Nov 10, 2017 - 04:11 PM.

"Locking Bolts" would be the correct term. Link below:

https://www.murrays.com/product/56-4017/

--
Bill Mattson
Prindle 19 "Gelli Bean"
Prindle 19 "Cat's Pajamas"
Nacra 5.2 (Will sail her a bit and let her name herself)
--

i wouldn't have known what that was either ! haha
thanks for the info - happy helming