I've been sailing a Hobie 18 for about a year, and am getting comfortable on it. I still have a lot to learn, but I'd like something that can do better downwind. I made the mistake of sailing with someone who has a spinnaker, and now I want one. .
So, I'm looking for advice on used boats. I don't want a project boat or something that is hard to find parts for.
I could add a spin to the H18, but I think I'd be better off getting a boat that was designed to use one from the start. The H18 is a bit heavy, and my wife and I have trouble pushing it uphill on the beach wheels.
I thought about getting an F16, but I think a 17 matches our combined weight better and is still lighter than the 18.
Are there certain boats to avoid? There's lots of information and misinformation online, and it's a bit hard to separate the two sometimes.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

I have a spin on my H18 and it’s a beast. And technically some 18s did have spins from the factory. The big bows handle it really well and it’s just as fast as anything if you sail it right. I paced a N17 for 2 hours in a distance race with spins up. If you search there’s a big thread on adding the spin on the H18 I made. One on here and one in the H18 area on the hobie forum.

If you have trouble pushing it uphill on beach wheels then you need better wheels with big tires that are fully inflated. It makes a difference. My old wheels are twice as hard to push as the big balloon wheels in sand.

We have the balloon tires on Cat Trax. They're nice wheels and I made sure there was no sand in the bearings, but our rocky ground still makes it challenging to cross.
Do you have the comptip mast? Does the spin attach below the comptip?

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

when you say 17.. do you mean a hobie17?
cause unless you and wife are VERY small - this is a 1 person boat

Are you talking Nacra 17? cause that's a whooole latta money and if you have that budget ...
your choices are huge

the step from an H18 to a F16 is pretty huge (in gear)
totally do-able, but your rigging time will quadruple

you can get a spin set up to work on almost any boat but the smaller the deck, the more impact all the additional lines and controls get in the way


If you wish to really explore other brands/cats - tell us more about your budget, and sailing conditions and we can provide better recommendations

Has anyone here had any experience with Rick White's "hooter sail"? It's basically a genoa sail or a big jib.

I had a Hobie 21 spinnaker on my Prindle 19 that I used in multiple Mug races, and other distant races including Rick's Steeplechase. It's a handful in a breeze!

There is an article on the Hooter sail if you do a google search "Rick White the hooter sail"



Edited by czbob75f on Jan 04, 2018 - 03:11 PM.

--
Bob Bitting
Mooresville, NC
1983 Prindle 16
2012 A-Class Catamaran
--

Quote

We have the balloon tires on Cat Trax. They're nice wheels and I made sure there was no sand in the bearings, but our rocky ground still makes it challenging to cross.

For me its about 3 things, weight slope and balance of the tires
1. I get all the weight off the boat i can within a few trips (main, cooler, radio and drybags) - will take off rudders and remove centerboards if i need to

2. If i have a beach, i will traverse the boat side to side to change it to a gentle slope vs right up the hill

3. the wheels have to be secure in the exact right spot.. other wise your fighting it and wasting energy and attention

i can solo my 5.5 or 6.o up my beach this way
of course i prefer help


I think local conditions determines the optimal tire type and psi

Ropewalker,

I sent you a PM. I put an aftermarket spinnaker on my Hobie 18 as well and wasn't particularly thrilled with the setup. This was on an aluminum rig. Part of it may have been the kite (Smyth 18HT, not cut specifically for the H18) or possibly something else. I didn't spend a lot of time tweaking it, but I suspect the issue was the boards which are raked too far back for the kite resulting in lee helm downwing, and my rudder setup. It definitely needed EPO's, the plastics were too flexible for good control downwind.

Also, do a full inventory of costs before going down this route. A new spinnaker is ~$1000, the bag plus hoop are $400, the pole is another $100, there are $50 in pole fittings and tackline blocks, then you have the spinnaker blocks themselves ($300) and the spinnaker sheet ($100). All that works out to $1950 worth of equipment you are adding to a boat worth about the same.

You can probably find a good used Hobie Tiger for not much more than what it would cost you to add the spinnaker+sell your Hobie 18 for. That would also move you into a more modern/faster upwind package with self tacking jib and square top main, plus overall setup designed to take a kite. Just my 2 cents.

-Sam

czbob75f

Has anyone here had any experience with Rick White's "hooter sail"? It's basically a genoa sail or a big jib.

I had a Hobie 21 spinnaker on my Prindle 19 that I used in multiple Mug races, and other distant races including Rick's Steeplechase. It's a handful in a breeze!

There is an article on the Hooter sail if you do a google search "Rick White the hooter sail"Edited by czbob75f on Jan 04, 2018 - 03:11 PM.

From what I've read/heard the hooter and its article is mega old school and it's sorta written to sell sails...clearly. There's probably a very limited angle you can take that thing anyway and I'd be impressed if anyone has really put a new one on a boat in years. Most modern gennaker sails are realtively flat but not a on a 100 foot pole like the hooter. Just look at the F16/F18 boats.

The spins we had Chip at whirlwind cut are slightly downsized F18 spins. If you get one ask for the Florida H18 spin. (technically the normal one he sells now but just in case he changed the size). I run a solid mast but 2 other Hobie 18's run the exact same spin and those are on comp tips. They used a H16 mast tang. I used a soft bale system that holds the head of the spin in the same position but I didnt have to rivet into the mast. Here's a shot of their boats drying out after a rain.


They ran their pole height a little high so realistically you could drop the attachment point down about 10-12" and be fine. We have had them in heavy air and no problems with the comp tip masts. Heres the thread where a lot was discussed https://www.hobie.com/for…ewtopic.php?f=13&t=57416

Cost was around a grand. 780ish for the spin, and then a long halyard, spin sheet and harken ratchamatic blocks. The other boats bag launched for awhile but now have snuffers. I made my own out of a pool noodle SNU copy. Sewed up the bag myself. It's really easy to make your own work, really. If you have to buy everything new they all up maybe 1500-1600.

I have perfect helm with this spin and a 12 foot pole. Traveller is barely let out if at all so basically the sail plan is at full power. Helm problems come down to either pole length or traveler position issues. We used windsurfing masts cut down. I stuffed a H18 boom gooseneck in the back of my pole but the other guys just cut a notch in the back and slipped it onto the dolphin striker.

from what i recall: Rick's Hooter was designed for the Hobie Wave
Possible to use on other boats but had limited range, appeal and use

and in case you didn't know ...

Rick started and ran a non hobie sanctioned Wave Fleet

They used modified gear (tillers and tramps if i recall, maybe even sail cut but i can't recall the details) that hobie didn't sanction.

they had annual / national races in the keys, and several other fleets held their annual races there at the same time (really nice venue)

at the tradewinds event - http://www.photoboatgallery.net/f112041223

they also had wave fleets/races in put it in bay, ohio

MN3

when you say 17.. do you mean a hobie17?
cause unless you and wife are VERY small - this is a 1 person boat

Are you talking Nacra 17? cause that's a whooole latta money and if you have that budget ...
your choices are huge

the step from an H18 to a F16 is pretty huge (in gear)
totally do-able, but your rigging time will quadruple

you can get a spin set up to work on almost any boat but the smaller the deck, the more impact all the additional lines and controls get in the way


If you wish to really explore other brands/cats - tell us more about your budget, and sailing conditions and we can provide better recommendations

The N17 specs look good to me, but they are newer and there are reported problems. The responses I've read from Nacra (e.g. the dagger wells) have been up front and reasonable, so I think they handle troubles well. But, I've never seen one, let alone sailed on one.

As for cost, the N17 is pushing the budget a bit. I've seen some older models (before the Olympic version) advertised for less than $10K.



Edited by ropewalker on Jan 04, 2018 - 06:27 PM.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

if that is your range ....

I recommend you contact Robby (and Jill) of RedGear Racing (in Clearwater fl) and talk to them

they are .... dealers/trainers (olympic) for several brands and can help get you in the right boat and train you how to sail it


And if that is your range (and desired sled)... you're going from the grand-dad's Lincoln Continental to a modern, high tech, F1 carbon fiber rocket with lots and lots of control lines and turing blocks

hang on and please post pics

where do you sail?



Edited by MN3 on Jan 04, 2018 - 05:47 PM.

Ropewalker,

I have sailed with a guy that had a hooter on a P19 many years ago. Sailed upwind an a light breeze with it but it was a handful. Yea, I got hooked as well and ended up retrofitting a huge fat spin on a P19. Hard to look back once you get one. I kinda agree with the others. Plenty of later generation F18s (Nacras/Hobies) that can be had that are setup with the spin for under 5k. Maybe around 4K if you are patient.

If you do the H18, I would suggest a noncomptip mast. When I did my P19, I used a mast bail from the nacra 20. My biggest issue was finding a pole. People have suggested using windsurfer masts. I have no idea what I ended up using. I dont remember what I used for my bag/hoop either. I MIGHT have just did a bag on the tramp. Somehow I ended up with a "bag" and a mid pole hoop that I still have. Heck, as I own a P18-2 I toy with the idea of adding a used spin setup as is, but then think I would rather have a newerish F18. The struggle is real....

Jonathan
Mesa, AZ
Solcat - sold
Prindle 16 - sold
Prindle 19 - sold
Nacra 20 - sold
Prindle 18-2 - current
C2 - Future

MN3

if that is your range ....

I recommend you contact Robby (and Jill) of RedGear Racing (in Clearwater fl) and talk to them

they are .... dealers/trainers (olympic) for several brands and can help get you in the right boat and train you how to sail it


And if that is your range (and desired sled)... you're going from the grand-dad's Lincoln Continental to a modern, high tech, F1 carbon fiber rocket with lots and lots of control lines and turing blocks

hang on and please post pics

where do you sail?Edited by MN3 on Jan 04, 2018 - 05:47 PM.

I'm in Tucson, AZ. We usually sail in Lake Pleasant or Roosevelt.
Are most of the additional control lines due to the spin?

I also see some F18's for sale at what seem good prices. At 396lbs though, they're roughly the same (advertised) weight as my H18. But, they'd come with a spin and new hull design.
For whatever reason, Used H18 Tigers and Wildcats seem to be attractively priced, so that's tempting.



Edited by ropewalker on Jan 04, 2018 - 07:36 PM.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

samc99us

Ropewalker,

I sent you a PM. I put an aftermarket spinnaker on my Hobie 18 as well and wasn't particularly thrilled with the setup. This was on an aluminum rig. Part of it may have been the kite (Smyth 18HT, not cut specifically for the H18) or possibly something else. I didn't spend a lot of time tweaking it, but I suspect the issue was the boards which are raked too far back for the kite resulting in lee helm downwing, and my rudder setup. It definitely needed EPO's, the plastics were too flexible for good control downwind.

Also, do a full inventory of costs before going down this route. A new spinnaker is ~$1000, the bag plus hoop are $400, the pole is another $100, there are $50 in pole fittings and tackline blocks, then you have the spinnaker blocks themselves ($300) and the spinnaker sheet ($100). All that works out to $1950 worth of equipment you are adding to a boat worth about the same.

You can probably find a good used Hobie Tiger for not much more than what it would cost you to add the spinnaker+sell your Hobie 18 for. That would also move you into a more modern/faster upwind package with self tacking jib and square top main, plus overall setup designed to take a kite. Just my 2 cents.

-Sam

I sent you a PM in response.
I have seen Tigers for a couple thousand more than I paid for my H18. This certainly is attractive. Nothing against Hobie, but I do like the looks of the Nacra H18 too. I wouldn't mind getting as new as I can afford.

Brett

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

Quote

Are most of the additional control lines due to the spin?

yes! can go from an empty tramp to a spaghetti monster quickly (lines everywhere)

competing for deck space (and adding to the giant hockle waiting to happen) with your jib sheet, main halyard, mainsheet and traveler line.. you now have an additional:

new spin tack line on main beam (or other)
new spin halyard a few feet up a mast that may or may not be part of the halyard system
new spin sheet running across your tramp
turning blocks on port/stbd front beam
turning blocks on prt/stbd side stays
probably a bungee and block somewhere above or below deck to help control all the line when slack
possibly a bungee system to help suck up excess spin sheet when snuffed


Are you a racer?
If not ... i would recommend a different breed

like a newer N570 or similar

Jonathan

Ropewalker,
Plenty of later generation F18s (Nacras/Hobies) that can be had that are setup with the spin for under 5k. Maybe around 4K if you are patient.

can you show me examples at this price?

[quote=MN3]

Quote

Are most of the additional control lines due to the spin?

yes! can go from an empty tramp to a spaghetti monster quickly (lines everywhere)

competing for deck space (and adding to the giant hockle waiting to happen) with your jib sheet, main halyard, mainsheet, anchor and line if you have one, and traveler line.. you now have an additional:

new spin tack line on main beam (or other)
new spin halyard a few feet up a mast that may or may not be part of the halyard system
new spin retrieval line (may be part of the halyard)
new spin sheet running across your tramp
turning blocks on port/stbd front beam
turning blocks on prt/stbd side stays
probably a bungee and block somewhere above or below deck to help control all the line when slack
possibly a bungee system to help suck up excess spin sheet when snuffed


Are you a racer?
If not ... i would go a different route (personally)

like a newer N570 or similar with a spin



Edited by MN3 on Jan 04, 2018 - 09:20 PM.

Whoa, hey .... I have an F16 and rigging time is NO WAY quadrupled compared to an H18 with a spinnaker. Also, I can sail the F16 Blade from main only to main, jib & spinnaker solo. Even with everything being rigged, I can be on the water in less than an hour doing all the set up by myself including raising the mast.

If you were a little closer, I have a Hobie Tiger for sale (listed on this site) for a good price. Even though you aren't, I would find an F16 or F18 already set up with a spinnaker rather than updating a H18. Modern forms are a wonderful thing compared to older models. No offense intended because I still enjoy getting my H14 out on the right days.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--

Quote

Whoa, hey .... I have an F16 and rigging time is NO WAY quadrupled compared to an H18 with a spinnaker.

ok - tripple
the point was - an h18 was a simple 70's desing
an f16/18 is a 2000's desing with a LOT more controll lines, and supporting lines and blocks -
it is a large leap in tech/gear


how fast can you solo step your mast, rig your spin, jib and main?

i can't rig either of my current cats (mystere 5.5 & 6.0) in much less than an hour (plus 30 to 45 min for a spin), or longer - I still think it's about 4x the rigging time :)

ymmv

We have the same back and forth about rigging my Corsair F-242. The boat designer says you should be on the water 45 minutes after you pull up to the ramp. I have had the boat five years now and never have been under 1.5x that time but others have.

Before I bought my F16, I routinely rigged my Tiger (jib was already on the forestay) all three sails plus stepping the mast solo in less than an hour. Over the years I refined a process to where there was no wasted time and it worked for me. This was my first season with the F16 but with everything smaller and lighter, I have a target of 45 minutes for next season. I have no doubt I will get there even though the jib needs to be hanked on each time (no furler and I am not using the selftacker setup).

How close are you to upstate NY because next summer I could come out and show you my process. I stand by less than an hour including the spinnaker.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--

Quote

From what I've read/heard the hooter and its article is mega old school and it's sorta written to sell sails...clearly. There's probably a very limited angle you can take that thing anyway and I'd be impressed if anyone has really put a new one on a boat in years. Most modern gennaker sails are realtively flat but not a on a 100 foot pole like the hooter. Just look at the F16/F18 boats.

Yeah, I guess you're right.. a reacher at best. Mega old school ideas. What were we thinking putting a sail on the end of a 100 foot pole?

BTW, Is that Rich Brew sucking on the water bottle at the Rudder Club in your photo?

--
Bob Bitting
Mooresville, NC
1983 Prindle 16
2012 A-Class Catamaran
--

MN3

Quote

Are most of the additional control lines due to the spin?

yes! can go from an empty tramp to a spaghetti monster quickly (lines everywhere)

competing for deck space (and adding to the giant hockle waiting to happen) with your jib sheet, main halyard, mainsheet and traveler line.. you now have an additional:

new spin tack line on main beam (or other)
new spin halyard a few feet up a mast that may or may not be part of the halyard system
new spin sheet running across your tramp
turning blocks on port/stbd front beam
turning blocks on prt/stbd side stays
probably a bungee and block somewhere above or below deck to help control all the line when slack
possibly a bungee system to help suck up excess spin sheet when snuffed


Are you a racer?
If not ... i would recommend a different breed

like a newer N570 or similar

I would like to be able to sail more points in lighter conditions, pointing high as well as better downwind. It gets old just going back and forth across the lake between the same two spots. Also, sailing on an I20 with a spin was a blast, even in light wind.
I'm used to dagger boards by now.
I like the idea of the N17 because it is a lighter boat, with a lighter (CF) mast, and it's designed for a mixed crew. But, they're $15K+. I could probably find an F18 for much less.

Brett

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

dssaak

We have the same back and forth about rigging my Corsair F-242. The boat designer says you should be on the water 45 minutes after you pull up to the ramp. I have had the boat five years now and never have been under 1.5x that time but others have.

My buddy claims he can get from lot to wet in 45 min on his F-31 (but that's not extending the ama's out)
i have helped him rig 3 or 4 times - feels longer to me :)

Quote

Before I bought my F16, I routinely rigged my Tiger (jib was already on the forestay) all three sails plus stepping the mast solo in less than an hour. Over the years I refined a process to where there was no wasted time and it worked for me. This was my first season with the F16 but with everything smaller and lighter, I have a target of 45 minutes for next season. I have no doubt I will get there even though the jib needs to be hanked on each time (no furler and I am not using the selftacker setup).

Extremely impressive
and not standard

I would expect a sailor who is new to this type of boat spend close to 2 hours rigging time

I have NEVER seen anyone with a modern design (n20, f16, f18) rig in under 1 hour (sans the gcat 5.0 turbo that may fit the f16 box rule but hardly a modern styled f16)

Quote

How close are you to upstate NY because next summer I could come out and show you my process. I stand by less than an hour including the spinnaker.

haha - thanks but i will take your word on it - i have no reason to not believe you

ropewalker

MN3

Quote

Are most of the additional control lines due to the spin?

yes! can go from an empty tramp to a spaghetti monster quickly (lines everywhere)

competing for deck space (and adding to the giant hockle waiting to happen) with your jib sheet, main halyard, mainsheet and traveler line.. you now have an additional:

new spin tack line on main beam (or other)
new spin halyard a few feet up a mast that may or may not be part of the halyard system
new spin sheet running across your tramp
turning blocks on port/stbd front beam
turning blocks on prt/stbd side stays
probably a bungee and block somewhere above or below deck to help control all the line when slack
possibly a bungee system to help suck up excess spin sheet when snuffed


Are you a racer?
If not ... i would recommend a different breed

like a newer N570 or similar

I would like to be able to sail more points in lighter conditions, pointing high as well as better downwind. It gets old just going back and forth across the lake between the same two spots. Also, sailing on an I20 with a spin was a blast, even in light wind.
I'm used to dagger boards by now.
I like the idea of the N17 because it is a lighter boat, with a lighter (CF) mast, and it's designed for a mixed crew. But, they're $15K+. I could probably find an F18 for much less.

Brett

You can find an older F18 for less certainly, but you are also talking about boats that are 15+ years old with associated wear and tear, plus outdated well everything. Not an issue for recreational sailing, but if you want to race, its an issue. Keep in mind a brand new F18 is $25-$27k without a trailer, beach wheels, hull chocks or any covers. A brand new N17 Mk. 2 is $35k, also without any of the above. These are performance race boats and as such carry a bit of a price premium. Part of that is also a result of lower demand in recent years, manufacturers have to amortize $50k + in tooling in some way.

The Nacra 17 Mk. 1's are cheaper because the market has dried up. They are no longer class legal for the Olympics. They are also very squirrely boats to sail because they lack winglet rudders and therefore like to go down the mine or pop wheelies. The build quality on many is also suspect, even for club use you would be lucky to get 2-3 years out of one. Maybe 5 if you found a really high quality one (i.e Bora's). None of the Olympic sailors I have spoken with and/or sailed with liked the boat in its original form. The new Mk. 2's are much better built (all carbon construction), much safer to sail (far more pitch pole resistant), but they also carry an appropriate price tag and limited availability as initial production is all going to the Olympic squads.

Also, the N17 carries the same sail area as a F18 and from all reports the sheet loads are higher than on an F18 because the speeds downwind are a bit higher, resulting in higher apparent wind speeds and higher loads. If you take a look at the winning female crews, they are closer to a wrestler in upper body form than anything else.

MN3

Jonathan

Ropewalker,
Plenty of later generation F18s (Nacras/Hobies) that can be had that are setup with the spin for under 5k. Maybe around 4K if you are patient.

can you show me examples at this price?

https://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/catamarans-for-sale/p15369-2005-hobie-tiger.html

ropewalker

samc99us

Ropewalker,

I sent you a PM. I put an aftermarket spinnaker on my Hobie 18 as well and wasn't particularly thrilled with the setup. This was on an aluminum rig. Part of it may have been the kite (Smyth 18HT, not cut specifically for the H18) or possibly something else. I didn't spend a lot of time tweaking it, but I suspect the issue was the boards which are raked too far back for the kite resulting in lee helm downwing, and my rudder setup. It definitely needed EPO's, the plastics were too flexible for good control downwind.

Also, do a full inventory of costs before going down this route. A new spinnaker is ~$1000, the bag plus hoop are $400, the pole is another $100, there are $50 in pole fittings and tackline blocks, then you have the spinnaker blocks themselves ($300) and the spinnaker sheet ($100). All that works out to $1950 worth of equipment you are adding to a boat worth about the same.

You can probably find a good used Hobie Tiger for not much more than what it would cost you to add the spinnaker+sell your Hobie 18 for. That would also move you into a more modern/faster upwind package with self tacking jib and square top main, plus overall setup designed to take a kite. Just my 2 cents.

-Sam

I sent you a PM in response.
I have seen Tigers for a couple thousand more than I paid for my H18. This certainly is attractive. Nothing against Hobie, but I do like the looks of the Nacra H18 too. I wouldn't mind getting as new as I can afford.

Brett

PM responded to. The Nacra Infusion F18 is a better boat than the Hobie Tiger, far more pitchpole resistant downwind and just smoother and easier to sail all around.

If you are targeting the $10k price range, you can probably get into a older Nacra Infusion or possibly AHPC C2 (https://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/catamarans-for-sale/p15269-2010-goodall-design-c2-f18.html , https://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/catamarans-for-sale/p14981-2011-f18-ahpc-c2.html).

Infusion Mk. 2's go for more as they are held in a bit higher regard than the C2 but mostly as they are just less available.

Thanks Sam, i have not seen any nacra f18's for the 4-5k range, I have seen some tigers.

samc99us

MN3

Jonathan

Ropewalker,
Plenty of later generation F18s (Nacras/Hobies) that can be had that are setup with the spin for under 5k. Maybe around 4K if you are patient.

can you show me examples at this price?

https://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/catamarans-for-sale/p15369-2005-hobie-tiger.html

MN3

Thanks Sam, i have not seen any nacra f18's for the 4-5k range, I have seen some tigers.

There will definetly not be a 2nd gen Nacra f18 for that price. There was a MKI for sale for san diego for $4,900 and was on this site and craigslist as of last week, but it might have sold as I cant seem to find it.

Jonathan

Edit. Actually here it is for $5,900 but I saw it for 4900 on craigs before.

https://www.thebeachcats.…k1-f18-w-2f-trailer.html



Edited by Jonathan on Jan 05, 2018 - 11:54 AM.

samc99us

PM responded to. The Nacra Infusion F18 is a better boat than the Hobie Tiger, far more pitchpole resistant downwind and just smoother and easier to sail all around.

If you are targeting the $10k price range, you can probably get into a older Nacra Infusion or possibly AHPC C2 (https://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/catamarans-for-sale/p15269-2010-goodall-design-c2-f18.html , https://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/catamarans-for-sale/p14981-2011-f18-ahpc-c2.html).

Infusion Mk. 2's go for more as they are held in a bit higher regard than the C2 but mostly as they are just less available.

Good info Sam in your PM: exactly what I was looking for.
It sounds like there were some build issues with early Nacra F18 Infusions, and possibly with the new 17's. I suppose that's to be expected, but I'd like to avoid those issues. I've read reports of weak hull seams in some of the NF18 Infusions - not good if widespread, and something to check when shopping.
The C2 certainly sounds like a good boat, and I'm surprised to hear you say there are more of them available than the NF18 Mk2. I was concerned with parts and support, and expected a small number to have been imported.
Any racing I do would be with a mixed multihull club, not specifically F18 since there aren't that many boats here. Monohulls and multihulls race together with a handicap (different start times). It's fun blasting past some high end mono's .

Brett



Edited by ropewalker on Jan 05, 2018 - 11:04 AM.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

Jonathan

MN3

Thanks Sam, i have not seen any nacra f18's for the 4-5k range, I have seen some tigers.

There will definetly not be a 2nd gen Nacra f18 for that price. There was a MKI for sale for san diego for $4,900 and was on this site and craigslist as of last week, but it might have sold as I cant seem to find it.

Jonathan

Edit. Actually here it is for $5,900 but I saw it for 4900 on craigs before.

https://www.thebeachcats.…k1-f18-w-2f-trailer.htmlEdited by Jonathan on Jan 05, 2018 - 11:54 AM.

That particular boat has been sailed to death and needs a new set of rags ($3500), the old set are completely shot even for club level racing.

ropewalker

samc99us

PM responded to. The Nacra Infusion F18 is a better boat than the Hobie Tiger, far more pitchpole resistant downwind and just smoother and easier to sail all around.

If you are targeting the $10k price range, you can probably get into a older Nacra Infusion or possibly AHPC C2 (https://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/catamarans-for-sale/p15269-2010-goodall-design-c2-f18.html , https://www.thebeachcats.com/classifieds/catamarans-for-sale/p14981-2011-f18-ahpc-c2.html).

Infusion Mk. 2's go for more as they are held in a bit higher regard than the C2 but mostly as they are just less available.

Good info Sam in your PM: exactly what I was looking for.
It sounds like there were some build issues with early Nacra F18 Infusions, and possibly with the new 17's. I suppose that's to be expected, but I'd like to avoid those issues. I've read reports of weak hull seams in some of the NF18 Infusions - not good if widespread, and something to check when shopping.
The C2 certainly sounds like a good boat, and I'm surprised to hear you say there are more of them available than the NF18 Mk2. I was concerned with parts and support, and expected a small number to have been imported.
Any racing I do would be with a mixed multihull club, not specifically F18 since there aren't that many boats here. Monohulls and multihulls race together with a handicap (different start times). It's fun blasting past some high end mono's .

BrettEdited by ropewalker on Jan 05, 2018 - 11:04 AM.

The seam issues only apply to Infusion Mk. 1's (basically 2006-2009 boats). Not all suffer from them, and its a relatively easily repaired problem by a competent composites shop or even home repair (I've re-glassed myself). The early N17's suffered from a lot more issues, I won't get into it here but Nacra was under intense pressure to get boats out the door for the start of the quad and hence there were a number of boats with issues.

I've seen a number of early C2's also suffering from seam issues, the problem there is the bottom seam/overlap is narrow (1" or so), so beach launch/landings and lots of sailing in short chop fatigue the joint and eventually split it. The other thing with the early C2's is some were overweight. Red Gear Racing/Sun n' Fun is the U.S dealer so there is good parts support and availability; the reason the early boats are cheap is they brought a lot of boats in during 2011 and 2012 in the build up to Worlds. Some of the earlier boats also have short boards, the long boards are a direct swap but at a far penny, $1800-$2200 a set depending on year.

Far less Nacra Infusion Mk. 2's were imported and they also don't suffer from any build quality issues from what I have seen. There are also modes where the Infusion is the faster boat, particularly downwind in sea state. In light air I might give the edge to the C2, but it really all comes down to the crew.

Your biggest issue is going to be availability, there is a growing F18 fleet in San Diego/So. Cal so the cheaper boats are getting scooped up left right and center. Bringing a boat back from the East Coast is doable, more so probably after F18 worlds in Sarasota, FL this October.

samc99us

That particular boat has been sailed to death and needs a new set of rags ($3500), the old set are completely shot even for club level racing.

Probably true, but to get a spin boat is what I was looking at in the 4-5k range. Not going to find any spin boat in that range with newer sails. Heck, i would assume his 18 has older sails then that one so it is a step up for that matter. That tiger you posted is decent though and worth a look at.

Jonathan

ropewalker

The C2 certainly sounds like a good boat, and I'm surprised to hear you say there are more of them available than the NF18 Mk2. I was concerned with parts and support, and expected a small number to have been imported.
Any racing I do would be with a mixed multihull club, not specifically F18 since there aren't that many boats here. Monohulls and multihulls race together with a handicap (different start times). It's fun blasting past some high end mono's .

If you get a C2. That would be 2 in Arizona.... Dare you....

Joanthan

Jonathan

samc99us

That particular boat has been sailed to death and needs a new set of rags ($3500), the old set are completely shot even for club level racing.

Probably true, but to get a spin boat is what I was looking at in the 4-5k range. Not going to find any spin boat in that range with newer sails. Heck, i would assume his 18 has older sails then that one so it is a step up for that matter. That tiger you posted is decent though and worth a look at.

Jonathan

Oh yeah, my jib is toast. The main is still crispy, but original.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

Jonathan

If you get a C2. That would be 2 in Arizona.... Dare you....

Joanthan

Uh oh, a dare. Dang it. .
Do you single-hand it?



Edited by ropewalker on Jan 05, 2018 - 02:50 PM.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

czbob75f

BTW, Is that Rich Brew sucking on the water bottle at the Rudder Club in your photo?

Yep, the other spin boats are his

ropewalker

Uh oh, a dare. Dang it. .
Do you single-hand it?

Guess I didn't post my response.

I don't have one. I wouldn't single hand a spin boat. You could with the self tacker but then never hoist it.

Jonathan

Jonathan

ropewalker

Uh oh, a dare. Dang it. .
Do you single-hand it?

Guess I didn't post my response.

I don't have one. I wouldn't single hand a spin boat. You could with the self tacker but then never hoist it.

Jonathan

i own two cats with spins, manual full size (furling) jibs,
i solo 90% of the time

I'll return to the original thread topic and blend with later posts leading up to my solicitation. Note I am far from an expert and speak only from experience/preference. Note I sail my H17s and F25C solo 100% of the time

A drifter/Code 0 is wonderful on my F25C and I prefer it to my roller furling spin. I have a H17 with super jib and spin and I wish I had gone with a simpler H17 main (which is a square top) and hooter. I find myself in light wind most of the time so being able to drift upwind with the hooter is appealing (I drift through fleets leaving them standing still at the start line in no apparent air on my F25C with Code 0). Having said this:

If anyone is selling their hooter setup I would very much like to buy it.

Thanks all,

James

we used to sail with a guy who had a h17 with spin
the pole was crazy long - but he was fast with that spin

Jonathan

ropewalker

Uh oh, a dare. Dang it. .
Do you single-hand it?

Guess I didn't post my response.

I don't have one. I wouldn't single hand a spin boat. You could with the self tacker but then never hoist it.

Jonathan

My original thought was to find a decent F16, since I race only single-handed. At 190lbs, I don't think I'm too heavy.
My wife has no interest in racing, so I don't mind if the boat is slower with 340lbs total on it and we're just out for fun.
I would probably have to work on my tacking some since I wouldn't use the jib when I'm by myself.

Brett



Edited by ropewalker on Jan 07, 2018 - 12:05 AM.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

Quote

My original thought was to find a decent F16, since I race only single-handed. At 190lbs, I don't think I'm too heavy.
My wife has no interest in racing, so I don't mind if the boat is slower with 340lbs total on it and we're just out for fun.
I would probably have to work on my tacking some since I wouldn't use the jib when I'm by myself.

I feel like I am beating a dead horse here, and I apologize if I am (and this will be the end of it)

I think ya gotta ask:
How much do you race vs non race sailing? - how important is racing to you?
and if you race open class .... do you need to have a formula boat

How much do you sail w your crew? how important is her comfort and rigging complexity in the sailing picture?

I only say this cause - It's easy to get discouraged if the gear is highly technical or hard to use.

I have had gf's tell me to never say the word "spinnaker" again...
I have seen friends who sailed every weekend on a simple design who upgrade to a modern racers and the boat was almost never used - sat for years and then sold

when boats (or anything) becomes more work than fun .... things stop being worth doing.



If you think you want to race a good amount (and may want to race strict class) - and are up for it, go for a Formula cat otherwise in your price range you can also look for many other cats, with newer sails, maybe wings and spins!



Edited by MN3 on Jan 07, 2018 - 11:38 AM.

MN3:
I don't think we have enough of any one type to do a class race. There's probably more H16's here than anything else, but I don't want an H16. I'd like newer style hulls, and the ability to point higher as well as go downwind.
I like the H18, but it doesn't have much power in light air or downwind. I like to go fast, but dial it back when my wife is with me.
I've repaired the leaks, replaced rigging, and it sails well with a good breeze. New sails would be nice.
I don't need a formula boat, but that's what gives me the features I am looking for.
I understand that having a spin adds more complexity, but I think I can leave it off if I don't want to use it.
I do want to beat that J80 next time though.
I'd like to say thanks to everyone who's participated on this thread. The input so far has been excellent.



Edited by ropewalker on Jan 07, 2018 - 09:31 PM.

My mystere's have everything you have talked about and then some
my 5.5 cost me 3200 - with a very usable main and jib



Edited by MN3 on Jan 08, 2018 - 10:20 AM.

ropewalker

MN3:
I don't think we have enough of any one type to do a class race. There's probably more H16's here than anything else, but I don't want an H16. I'd like newer style hulls, and the ability to point higher as well as go downwind.
I like the H18, but it doesn't have much power in light air or downwind. I like to go fast, but dial it back when my wife is with me.
I've repaired the leaks, replaced rigging, and it sails well with a good breeze. New sails would be nice.
I don't need a formula boat, but that's what gives me the features I am looking for.
I understand that having a spin adds more complexity, but I think I can leave it off if I don't want to use it.
I do want to beat that J80 next time though.
I'd like to say thanks to everyone who's participated on this thread. The input so far has been excellent.Edited by ropewalker on Jan 07, 2018 - 09:31 PM.

Ropewalker,

On most modern boats-the F16 and F18 for example, you can't leave the spinnaker pole off because it also supports the sheeting for the self tacking jib (something stock older Mysteres don't have, and make single handing much easier). So your option is to leave the spinnaker in the bag, or you can leave it on the beach which saves connecting the sheets and halyards.

My experience is, for the average sailor, a spinnaker boat is best kept mast up at a local club unless you get hooked into the regatta circuit. Otherwise, spending 2 hours rigging from scratch everytime you go sailing is no fun. I can do it in 1hr, but there is always something to tweak/tune/adjust and people to chat with, 2 hours is what it really takes.

The uni-rig F16's have pretty well been proven slower than their sloop rigged counterparts. I can't explain exactly why but I think the rigs, rig placement and sail design on the F16's are all sorted for sailing with the jib. No matter, you can sail with or without, just leave the pole attached. Singlehanding with the spinnaker is a lot of fun btw.



Edited by samc99us on Jan 08, 2018 - 01:08 PM.

MN3

My mystere's have everything you have talked about and then some
my 5.5 cost me 3200 - with a very usable main and jibEdited by MN3 on Jan 08, 2018 - 10:20 AM.

I'll look at Mystere.
One local guy has a G-cat, which does point well w/o daggerboards, but it's an 80's boat. I read something about a new F16 from Geissler, but I don't think it got going.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

ropewalker

MN3

My mystere's have everything you have talked about and then some
my 5.5 cost me 3200 - with a very usable main and jibEdited by MN3 on Jan 08, 2018 - 10:20 AM.

I'll look at Mystere.
One local guy has a G-cat, which does point well w/o daggerboards, but it's an 80's boat. I read something about a new F16 from Geissler, but I don't think it got going.

I sail with Hans G and the f16 he built (2) for the worlds
It was not a "typical" f16
was crashed day 1 in the worlds (skippered by a hired pro)
the hope was it would do well and they were going to go back into production ... didn't end that way unfortunately

the second f16 turbo is now sailed by a friend - it is a rocket but like every boat has pros and cons

They hulls are 70's design but work amazingly well in most applications - the design/molds has been used by trimarans, 16, 18, 20,21 catamarans, 36' power-cats, etc

G-cats can be supped up and supper competitive -
our friend beats most brands boat for boat, and gets crazy time since the boat has a very favorable rating

I wasn't really suggesting mystere's to you as much as the point of you don't have to go to a race machine to get everything you "want"

But since you have interest ...
Mystere is an offshoot of the Olympic catamaran (of old days) and are back in business in canada and producing very sexy new boats

Centerboards are very nice to have if you sail in shallows

f16 gcat in foreground
mystere 5.5 in background

Great history lesson MN3.

The G-Cat 5.7 was a pretty nice boat when I sailed it a few years ago, powerful, reasonably fast upwind etc. They are nice cruisers. That being said, I assume the F16 models didn't quite perform as advertised? I think running a kite on that hull shape wouldn't prove particularly fast, thrilling perhaps but not fast, and boards help a lot upwind...



Edited by samc99us on Jan 09, 2018 - 09:19 AM.

samc99us

Great history lesson MN3.

The G-Cat 5.7 was a pretty nice boat when I sailed it a few years ago, powerful, reasonably fast upwind etc. They are nice cruisers. That being said, I assume the F16 models didn't quite perform as advertised? I think running a kite on that hull shape wouldn't prove particularly fast, thrilling perhaps but not fast.

haha - yes that cat is "thrilling" when heated up
It can be a bit twitchy and pitchy


Never will know how it would have performed in real race conditions (with a fleet of pros) as it fouled another boat and was hit - taken out very early / but It is hard to believe that it could be competitive with modern computer aided "everything" -

Interesting G-cat info
https://www.thebeachcats.…ss-catamaran-from-g-cat/

the Power (36) used 2 15hp engines. I think we were close to 28 knots and it felt like we were floating

Is carbon fiber still too expensive to make a mast out of? I don't see many boats with it available.
It seems like that would help quite a bit, with reduced weight aloft. It would certainly be easier on my back when it comes to stepping. I can't leave the boat setup.



Edited by ropewalker on Jan 10, 2018 - 07:36 PM.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

I keep reading this thread with interest. My F16 looks clean and simple rigged main only with minimal rigging time. The guys in my fleet don't think the boat is slow rigged that way.

Just because you have it, doesn't mean you have to fly it. My Tiger I rig everything but can leave the spin in the chute and the jib furler on the forestay. Very manageable solo. Wind under 10 and I fly it all.

Do I wish I had wings ... yes but all boats are a compromise. If I wasn't a solo sailor 95% of the time, I wouldn't have bought the F16 and have the Tiger for sale. If I had more money, I would have bought a C2 rather than the Tiger, etc, etc.

Get the most pros and fewest cons, buy the boat and go sailing. It is a lot more fun than looking for a boat.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--

Yeah, looking isn't much fun, especially when most of the interesting boats are clear across the country.
I'm going to ask for lots of pictures before making a trip.
Good to know you're happy with the F16. It seems like a good compromise.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

ropewalker

Is carbon fiber still too expensive to make a mast out of? I don't see many boats with it available.
It seems like that would help quite a bit, with reduced weight aloft. It would certainly be easier on my back when it comes to stepping. I can't leave the boat setup.Edited by ropewalker on Jan 10, 2018 - 07:36 PM.

F18 class rules ban carbon masts. F16 class rules have a minimum tip weight rule in the mast so there is little incentive to go carbon in the mast. In terms of a cost, a blank (as in raw from the anodizer, no fittings, holes etc.) F18 mast section in aluminum is ~$800. A blank A-Cat mast section (similar length and section, less reinforcement, but carbon) is ~$3500. Labor and autoclave time is more expensive than extruder time. Materials cost on the carbon front is higher, probably by about double. The biggest downside to aluminum is finding someone to extrude and anodize the tubes, plus you can't just buy one, you have to buy a whole lot. The F16 class rules wanted to allow homebuilds as a serious option, which is why carbon masts are class legal, as its possible to homebuild a one-off carbon mast to the same minimum weight as the aluminum section and have confidence in the stick. Is it worth the effort? Probably not, and the aluminum rigs have proven themselves at the worlds level in the F16 class. They are also plenty light for solo stepping, though the A-Cat is the ultimate in ease of solo rigging.

Quote

F16 class rules have a minimum tip weight rule in the mast so there is little incentive to go carbon in the mas

Interesting: had to look that one up

1.4.5 The weight that is measured at the mainsail hoist height of a mast lying perfectly horizontal with its
base supported at the bottom edge of the mast section is referred to as the "mast tip weight".
The minimum mast tip weight of a fully fitted mast, excluding standing rigging, is
set at 6.00 kg for reasons of seaworthiness and to guarantee fair racing



Edited by MN3 on Jan 11, 2018 - 11:55 AM.

This question is slightly off topic.
What is the difference between a Hooter, Code0 and Code1 sail? I have watched the M32 and G32 use Code1s up wind and downwind in light air and only use it down wind in moderate to heavy air.

--
Prindle 18 w/ wings, Prindle 16, Prindle 15, current
Hobie 16 in rebuild
2 Hobie 18 past
NACRA 5.2 past

Saint Cloud, Florida
member Lake Eustis Sail Club
http://www.lakeeustissailingclub.org
--

Hey mate, I will give you my 2 cents on spinnakers for cats. Hooters, code 0's, reachers or a spinnaker for cats are really different names for the same idea.
Back in the day we had cat sailors who learned that apparent wind speed down wind was much faster than going down wind even with a spinnaker. Early spinnakers were cut by monohull sailors who really did not have a clue about down wind apparent wind. ( I am generalizing, but this is essentially correct).
The first "stock" spinnaker I sailed was on a Hobie 21 when they came out new and where targeting a "pro-circuit" type of event. Even these early spinnakers "designed" for cats were way too full. (Again, sail makers were still thinking in terms of how deep can I go, instead of how fast I can go).
It was then that I learned that a spinnaker that is too full has a self limiting top speed. This is where drag of the shape of the chute prevents a faster speed. This results in one having to sail deeper, however on a cat, this is not necessarily faster.
Over the years, folks experimented with shapes getting less full. Basically, we needed a big down wind jib. Something that would not collapse as forward speed picked up. Hence the development of hooters, reachers, and code 0's .
In light air these big jibs can help going up wind as well. These big jibs do not allow you to point as high, however you can build enough speed to over come the extra distance.
Again with cats, going up wind is about speed not pointing angles. Monohull sailors often tell me cats do not point as well as monohulls. My response is, yes they will. But if you go that high you will sail as slow as a monohull too. The same applies down wind. You can go down wind like a monohull, the only problem is you will go slow like a monohull.

Cheers

This is interesting. Most of the cats I've looked at just say whether they have a spin or not, not which kind or what it's strong points are.
But, I'm also not clear what the difference is between reacher, screacher, hooter, etc.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

Hi Brett and welcome.

The terminology is quite confusing and not standardized at all. One persons "screecher" is anothers "reacher" or "110% Genoa" some may call a "Lapper". I will try to simplify it:

Modern sail plans have 2 head sails. Generally one for working upwind and one for working downwind. The jib sail is hung off the forestay and is used for upwind work and depending on the size and where you sail has many names. The downwind sail in a modern sailplan is either a symmetric or an asymmetric spinnaker. It is hung from the top of the mast or near the top and is often on a longeron on multihull boats. Symmetric spinnakers are rarely seen on modern multihulls so we will ignore them. Some people refer to an asymmetric spinnaker as an A1, A2, A3 etc... All the "code" sails are a mixture of asymmetric spinnakers designed for reaching and running in different conditions:

(from wikipedia)

The code 0 asymmetric is a tight reaching sail, that was developed in the Whitbread Round the World Race by Robert "Hooky" Hook for Paul Cayard's successful EF Language. In that race it replaced the jibs for light upwind work in addition to many off wind angles. The luff is as straight as possible, and the sail is flatter than other asymmetric spinnaker. Due to the flatness of the code 0, it is usually made with a high modulus luff line for supporting strength, and of a heavier, less stretchy fabric than normal for a spinnaker. Due to the tight luff and flat cut, the code 0 can be fitted for roller furling.

Code 1 is a light air reaching sail, where the apparent wind angles at low speeds has a significant effect to create angles of less than 90 degrees.
Code 2 is a medium air running sail, used for apparent wind angles over 90 degrees.
Code 3 is a medium air reaching sail, used for apparent wind angles near 90 degrees.
Code 4 is a heavy air running sail, used in the heaviest winds normally expected.
Code 5 is a heavy air reaching sail, used in the heaviest winds normally expected.
Code 6 is a storm sail, for running in storm conditions.

A lot of people like the Code 0 on multihulls as it is usually on a roller furler therefore can be depowered easily and useful in a very wide range of conditions.

Hope this helps.

Brad
Stiletto 27 CE



Edited by bradinjax on Jan 12, 2018 - 07:36 PM.

So, all of these terms (reacher, screacher, hooter, ...) are interchangable?
As stated above by Bruiser, the flatter spin could be used upwind in light air. That sounds like a versatile sail to have.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

ropewalker

So, all of these terms (reacher, screacher, hooter, ...) are interchangable?
As stated above by Bruiser, the flatter spin could be used upwind in light air. That sounds like a versatile sail to have.

Well....not interchangeable but more a matter of regional definitions. Here in Florida where I live now a lot of people describe their downwind sail as a "Screacher" which is a combination of a reacher and spinnaker. Other places I lived the same sail would be described as a drifter or just a reacher with the spinnaker part understood. A Hooter was an early attempt at marketing something close to a code 0 but kind of failed in the marketing department and was not quite a code 0 but they were on the right track. Nobody with a modern sailplan has anything called a hooter today.

It is widely regarded that a code 0 is the most versatile asymmetric spinnaker and has rapidly become the go-to headsail for the largest variety of conditions. But higher levels of competition require more sail options. A basic suite of sails for someone seriously competing on a local level would be 2 mains, 2-3 jibs, 3-4 spins. However, a fully sponsored race ready M32 (for example) will have at least 2 full sets of sails and practice sails. So that would be at least 3 mains, 7-9 jibs, 14+ spinnakers. All those sails have names or some designation so everyone knows what sails to use for given conditions. Of course some of those sails would be duplicates as spares and others for specialized conditions.

Sail shapes and uses is a constantly evolving process. As new materials become available and more specialized applications become necessary the nomenclature changes. I am sure somebody somewhere is working hard on something with a new name we will all be talking about very soon.

The manufacturing of sails is more an art form than a science. Two sails that measure exactly the same can have very different properties and those properties will change over time based on maintenance, storage conditions, use, and weather conditions.

Brad
Stiletto 27 CE



Edited by bradinjax on Jan 13, 2018 - 12:33 AM.

Quote

Well....not interchangeable but more a matter of regional definitions. Here in Florida where I live now a lot of people describe their downwind sail as a "Screacher" which is a combination of a reacher and spinnaker. Other places I lived the same sail would be described as a drifter or just a reacher with the spinnaker part understood. A Hooter was an early attempt at marketing something close to a code 0 but kind of failed in the marketing department and was not quite a code 0 but they were on the right track. Nobody with a modern sailplan has anything called a hooter today.

Don't forget the WHomPer (old term for spinnaker on a monohull before beachcats were flying spins)

We brought 2 Mystere's to The Small boat fest in Cedar Key fl a few years ago and they saw me pull out my spin once - the rest of the weekend everyone was yelling to us "pull out your whomper"

Quote

A lot of people like the Code 0 on multihulls as it is usually on a roller furler therefore can be depowered easily and useful in a very wide range of conditions.

and can be on a halyard so you can completely drop the furled sail and reduce windage

Of course there is NO comparison between an H18 downwind and the Nacra 20 you tasted.

However....if you dial it all in right (sheets, sails, weight, etc..) the hobie 18 can be quick and fun downwind... you've got to get that big jib pulling....

Weight wise, you already know an F18 is close to the Hobie18.

The spin boats, essentially, only have 2 more lines than your H18, those extra being a spin halyard and a spin sheet..... HOWEVER, while you may not use the downhaul and rotator much on the H18, you will need to use them to get the most out of your rig when you have the spin...

Finally, if you keep the boat mast up, don't be intimidated by rigging time w/the spin.. keep an old spin in the spin sock and cover it.. when time to sail just run up your main and maybe the jib... if you want the jib...

I'd say around 340 lbs is the safe zone to move from the F16 to an F18 w/o experience on an F18. If you're solo or under 340, an F16 may be better.

Don't be overwhelmed... just start on light days, pay attention and learn from mistakes.

I went from an H18 with no spin... to a spin. I rigged an N17 spin setup on my H18. It was OK. Boat wasn't designed for a spin but you could make it work. I opted for a boat designed for a spin, and found myself sailing solo more often so I moved into an F16 Blade. An older design, but a TON of fun. Ironically, it's now for sale in the beachcats classified because I'm expecting to move overseas this spring/summer.



Edited by robpatt on Jan 16, 2018 - 02:42 PM.

Yeah, I'm under 340, about 195 by myself.
I can solo the H18 myself on light days, which we have lots of here. We get heavy winds during summer monsoons, but those days the wind might go from 4 to 40 in a blink. Have to be watchful.
F18's seem to be more popular than F16's. I'll keep watching the classifieds.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

F16's as boats are great, well built, light enough to handle around the yard solo, possible to sail 1 up or 2 up etc. Unfortunately the class in the U.S is a bit disorganized, the boats don't carry weight much above 325lbs all that well which means in 2 up mode they are limited to smaller husband/wife teams or youth teams and in 1 up mode they aren't particularly competitive in course racing because of the high number of control lines and 1-up spinnaker take downs+hoists are a bit sketchy.

All this factors contribute to the class not being super healthy in the U.S. When looking for fleets with high participation numbers and thus more used boats on the market, you basically have the Hobie 16, F18 and A-Cat. Racing outside of that is all on handicap which is fine, but it also means dwindling numbers and older boats.

It's even worse here in AZ. Everything I'm looking at is far away. We aren't exactly a formula anything mecca.
There are two i20's available nearby, and a couple of H16's for sale.
Most people here have H16's. There are a few I20's, an F18HT, a few H18's, and a couple of Nacra 5.2's I think.
I'm not a fan of the H16, and would rather just keep my old H18. It's less weight sensitive, no jib battens to hang up on the mast when tacking, and it has a better ride. It is a heavy beast, and stepping the mast is not pleasant.
I considered an I20 because of the carbon mast. It rides and turns very well. It's way more power than I need, and is an older design, so part availability may become an issue and it's heavier. I already find that replacement parts for the H18 are limited (like sails, trams and hulls), and more of them were produced compared to the I20.
Moving an I20 around on a slope is also a pain unless you have 3 or 4 people. We don't have big, flat beaches like in CA.
But, I have to be practical also. Finding a good boat is hard enough. Getting any good rigging/tuning information is likely to be difficult on an F16 locally, as is resale.
Thinking practically, I would probably be better off keeping the H18 for when my wife wants to go out, and buying an A-cat for when I want to race. We don't have a lot of space for storage though.
I suppose if I had a double trailer, I could stack them.
If I could find someone to crew for races, an F18 would work. They are more popular, and would probably resell easier. Although, I see lots of ads for F18's that have been up for a while.
I have to admit, I am more excited by the F18. This may be because my experience on a 16' boat is on an H16 though.

Brett



Edited by ropewalker on Jan 18, 2018 - 09:24 PM.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

Resale ??? I have never bought a boat I thought I wouldn't keep. That is likely why I am up to 5 now. Only Pete (I see he is on right now) is more of a collector than I am.

F16 - 240lbs ... best of all worlds if you are not into One Design racing. I drove 6 hrs to get my F16 and it was well worth the trip. Best boat I have every owned.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--

Geez, 5? Are you married?
Truthfully, I can only maintain so much. I'd rather sell something than let it gather weeds.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

I contacted someone about a used Viper and asked some questions about condition. He told me the tramp kept pulling out of the front groove, and there was a damaged shroud anchor that occurred when a swage fitting split, letting the mast fall. This apparently required cutting a hole in the hull to replace the shroud anchor, which was then patched over. I'm not certain how I'd assess the internal repair. It sounded like they had to replace a threaded sleeve, and rebed it to the internal brace.
The hull patch and tramp groove ought to be obvious I would think. Thoughts?

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

Quote

He told me the tramp kept pulling out of the front groove, and there was a damaged shroud anchor that occurred when a swage fitting split, letting the mast fall. This apparently required cutting a hole in the hull to replace the shroud anchor, which was then patched over. I'm not certain how I'd assess the internal repair.

Either the tramp bolt rope needs replacing or there is something very wrong with your tramp track (which is a big deal on these boats as it is inside the hull

As per the shroud anchor- something with that story is odd: the stay anchor/tang is all internal except the little nub above the deck. if a shroud swage failed... the mast would fall but how does that effect the anchor inside the hull? unless the mast fell ON the shroud tang and broke it off - i don't see how these are related

sounds like the anchor failed and the tang pulled out - or something like that
not sure but sounds odd

Putting a spin on your current boat sounds like a better and better option (ymmv)



Edited by MN3 on Jan 19, 2018 - 10:16 AM.

Quote

Resale ??? I have never bought a boat I thought I wouldn't keep.

This is a real factor

the used beachcat market is ... not healthy and reselling a beach cat for more than a few grand can be a real challenge in many locations



Edited by MN3 on Jan 19, 2018 - 10:52 AM.

Quote

But, I have to be practical also. Finding a good boat is hard enough. Getting any good rigging/tuning information is likely to be difficult on an F16 locally, as is resale.

If you are spending around 10k on an F class boat, it would really be in your best interest to get to clearwater and get some training from red gear. (or other world class training on the other coast)



Edited by MN3 on Jan 19, 2018 - 10:25 AM.

I have an '09 Viper (F16) and haven't had a lick of trouble with it. It's great boat, love it. I believe there was an issue with a fitting on the shrouds that needed to be changed out or it would cause a failure. Robbie looked at my boat and said it was already done. I don't remember the specifics of issue though I think it was a very simple fix.

My wife and I got the Viper when I was pretty new to sailing (2 years) and had only sailed boardless beachcats w/out spins up until then. She had 0 experience. We took a few licks at the beginning, nothing bad. We were careful of the conditions we went out in. I second what MN3 said about visiting Red Gear. We went and spent a few days with them and Robbie got us sorted out.

--
Mac
Midlands South Carolina
AHPC Viper USA 366
A Cat USA 366
Super Cat 17
--

Quote

I believe there was an issue with a fitting on the shrouds that needed to be changed out or it would cause a failure.

now that you say that - i think you are correct and i think i recall this issue and saw robby doing this fix out on early vipers (I was there buying sails or spin gear)

that "issue" makes a lot more sense than to me than a swage failure / mast drop causing the issue ... but who knows

That being said:
if this "issue" was not due to some trauma, was the "fix" done on both sides of the boat?

Sounds like someone forgot to put tape on a ring ding and the pin came out. They did have some shroud anchor tang issues as others mentioned above, the repair was to screw a new beefier one into the hull if I recall. C2's are subject to the same issue FYI.

Tramps have been pulling out of slots in hulls since they were invented. Couple reasons there, it is possible the slot is cracked, equally possible the tramp itself is worn out. Neither are major issues and both are quick fixes (epoxy for the first, new tramp for the second).

I20's are great boats. The only parts that are an issue really are the daggerboards and masts. The rest of the parts are primarily interchangeable with the Nacra Infusion so good availability there as those boats are still in production. I cannot advise single handing this boat-there are guys at our club who occasionally do, but only when other boats are around to rescue, as self rescue is difficult at lighter weights. The masts do step pretty easily but they are still a tall rig and very expensive/impossible to replace so definitely a 2/3 person job. Locally a heavy team weighed an I20 vs. F18 (tough call because we sail in light winds and have a strong local I20 fleet), they ended up getting a C2 and are happy with that decision. Its a much newer boat than any of the I20's out there and well sorted, plus they have won races in lighter conditions on it.

There are some F18's on the market right now, but if you notice not a lot of Infusions (none I believe). Infusion Mk. 2's took the top 5 spots at last weekends Bluster on the Bay Regatta. I'm not saying C2's aren't competitive-they most certainly are in the hands of skilled sailors, but in the U.S there are more competitive teams on Infusions it seems so the knowledge base is a bit higher. That drives the resale value of Infusions Mk. 2's up a good bit.

Also, in terms of difficulty finding a boat, I would throw location to the wind initially, and focus on getting the boat you want at a price point you can accept. As I explained to a friend recently, you are shopping for a Bugatti Veyron, very few were built and as a result you have to expand your search region to find what you are looking for, or settle for something you aren't.

Sam;
Good point about self-righting. I'd have to check if I can get enough leverage from a "power" pole attached to the dolphin striker with lines or a righting-bag to right an F18 myself, but certainly the lighter boat would be easier in that regard.

I've been thinking about the location issue: flights are expensive, and I just don't have time to take off to drive 30+ hrs each way to go look at a boat. This may mean I miss out on a good used boat because I can't get there fast enough or don't recognize it for what is it and don't even book the trip.

There are three F16's I'd want to look at: Nacra, Goodall, or Falcon. It looks like the Viper is the favorite.

The sure-thing would be a 3-4 year old demo boat from one of the dealers, at 60% above my budget. Of course, if a boat has been there that long, perhaps they'd be willing to negotiate some to get it gone.
It doesn't hurt to check.

For the Viper, there is the side-benefit of letting me get some lessons on the boat (I'm thinking Red Gear Racing), which would certainly be beneficial.
The Nacra dealer also has a 2013 boat for sale. They aren't in a pleasant place to visit this time of year. We can still sail here .

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

For a F16 it would be Goodall or Falcon. The Nacra has sorted out the issues but they are still a lesser known quantity and may be more expensive. If you are serious about a Viper I will inquire with my local guy if it's for sale and how much. Uship could drive it out and I can certify it for a nominal fee.

Thanks Sam. See what he wants for it and PM me if he's interested.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

After much back and forth, I decided to check out a couple of boats on the west coast. One was an older Nacra "Mk1" Infusion, the other was a 2012 C2. I like the F16's, but they just aren't as available.
The C2 is in extremely nice condition, and I made an offer on it. I'm going to go pick it up this weekend. The seller is a very nice guy, and knows this boat. I'm excited to get this out on the water with him.
Sold the H18 today, so my wife is happy that we'll still only have 1 boat in the driveway.
Yay!

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

Awesome - congrats!
I have skippered an older Capricorn and it was a great ride!

I recommend you bring a pen and paper to write every step down and video any intricate setup parts (for me: it's really hard to recall how to rig every part of a new boat)

Thanks for reminding me (placing camera in bag).
I've read the setup procedures a couple of times, but I learn by doing.

Brett

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

Strongly agree with MN3. Would document the setup process in detail. Had a ARC 21 shipped to me and had to have a few conversations with the people at Aquarius Sailing (thankfully they are still in business) to finally get it set up correctly.

--
Scott
ARC 21
Prindle 18
Annapolis, Maryland
--

dssaak

Resale ??? I have never bought a boat I thought I wouldn't keep. That is likely why I am up to 5 now. Only Pete (I see he is on right now) is more of a collector than I am.

F16 - 240lbs ... best of all worlds if you are not into One Design racing. I drove 6 hrs to get my F16 and it was well worth the trip. Best boat I have every owned.

Missed this yesterday Dan. When collecting the number of boats WE have, resale plays into the decision. I don't think that we have purchased a boat that we could not at least break even with.I keep saying we should stick to a couple of like boats but it is too much fun to play with the different ones available. Just saw that H21 in Hartford. Anyone up for a short road trip? If it is not junk it will probably end up in the cat shed soon.

--
Pete Knapp
Schodack landing,NY
Goodall Viper,AHPC Viper,Nacra I20
--

The AHPC manual is pretty good, I refer to it and the Infusion manual often enough. You have my email if you get stuck...

Thanks Sam;
We took lots of pictures, and I set it up and tore it down. I need to set it up again soon, before the memories fade, and I think I'll have it. There is one thing I didn't set up though. It looks like there are a pair of extra cleats for positive mast rotation. Have you seen any pictures showing how to rig it? Is it just a line from the mast rotator over to each cleat on the beam?

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

samc99us

The AHPC manual is pretty good, I refer to it and the Infusion manual often enough. You have my email if you get stuck...

Agreed. I wouldn't mind if the pictures were a bit higher res though, but it's still good.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

Pete, yes to all of the above. There is no EPL football this weekend so I can take a ride if you want me. Ted is the one you NEED along as he knows that boat model inside out. It would be a great addition for you. I think I may be the poster boy for boat diversity; three different cats, one tri and a mono. You know my boats and I consider them all "value" buys but that still doesn't mean I want to sell them. I am even considering pulling down the Tiger ad but don't tell the wife.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--

I thought I'd post a follow-up:
So, I've had the C2 for about a year now, and am loving it. It takes a bit longer to set up than the H18 did, but I've never once regretted getting it. My wife loves it also. This really helps, considering it cost a few $$.
Goodall did a nice job on the controls and design overall.
The hull design makes it hard to bury them, although I have managed to do it, up to the front cross-bar, with the spin up. That brought me to a screeching halt. Lesson learned - keep weight back a bit more on the down wind.
It's a fast boat, and it points well.
The only oddity I've noticed is that the boat "hums" at high speed (didn't have a speed puck, so don't know exactly how fast). Wasn't able to locate source of vibration. My crew thought it was cool. To him, it meant it was time to get on the wire.
The engineer in me started wondering what was vibrating, and whether I should do anything about it. So, I've worked the edges of the rudders a little, and tightened the tension arms to reduce side-play when down. Will find out next weekend if this makes any difference.
Thanks everyone for the advice and good discussion. This is a great forum!

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

Quote

I've had the C2 for about a year now, and am loving it. It takes a bit longer to set up than the H18 did, but I've never once regretted getting it. My wife loves it also. This really helps, considering it cost a few $$.
Goodall did a nice job on the controls and design overall.
The hull design makes it hard to bury them, although I have managed to do it, up to the front cross-bar, with the spin up. That brought me to a screeching halt. Lesson learned - keep weight back a bit more on the down wind.
It's a fast boat, and it points well.
The only oddity I've noticed is that the boat "hums" at high speed (didn't have a speed puck, so don't know exactly how fast). Wasn't able to locate source of vibration. My crew thought it was cool. To him, it meant it was time to get on the wire.
The engineer in me started wondering what was vi

I crew on a C2 and on an Infusion prior. Both boats "hummed" (perhaps more of a whistle) at high speed. There is so much going on and I am no expert, but I took it as humming from the rig not boards as I notice the pitch change as apparent wind builds or bleeds off from turning down. Could be wrong, but I have heard foiling boats with the same sound as they approach 20 knots.

--
Joshua

Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
--

It's in the boards and rudders. We faired the boards on a foiling boat and the noise/vibrations went away.

Most of the F18's are a touch thick at the back of the rudder and need a sanding to get them razor sharp.

samc99us

It's in the boards and rudders. We faired the boards on a foiling boat and the noise/vibrations went away.

Most of the F18's are a touch thick at the back of the rudder and need a sanding to get them razor sharp.

I've heard that while sharpening the back of the blades is desirable, the focus is to sharpen while keeping the edge asymmetric. Symmetric sharpening will aid harmonic vibration. Any input?

Note: During a particularly nasty stuff while hooking up to go out, I reached out to stop myself with the closest thing I could brace against...the daggerboard. Missed with my hand, but not with my forearm. Moral of the story? Be careful what you sharpen.
Also, the trailing edge of C2 boards are notoriously brittle. I'd be cautious to thin them out too much.

--
Joshua

Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
--

samc99us

It's in the boards and rudders. We faired the boards on a foiling boat and the noise/vibrations went away.

Most of the F18's are a touch thick at the back of the rudder and need a sanding to get them razor sharp.

I worked the edges down like a chisel, on the inside, as per the manual. I didn't do the dagger boards though, as they look fairly thin.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

We file symmetrically; asymmetric fairing changes the foil from a symmetric shape to an assymetric shape and is technically against F18 class rules though no one would protest it on a trailing edge. I agree that going too thin on the TE is risky and the boards are a little brittle there.

The real keeper is the vertical scratches on the daggerboards, those need to be eliminated whenever possible.

On the stuffs, I like Nacra's solution of cutting back the part of the trailing edge that sits in the trunk so when it stick above the deck danger is greatly reduced. A sailing buddy was airlifted off a Nacra 20 when slamming into the back of the board in big breeze and needed a number of stitches to his leg, so it is a real risk. Use chicken lines!!!

What would be the advantage of filing asymmetrically? This is what the Goodall manual shows, but I'd like to understand why. The fact that the manual states that the bevels on both rudders should face each other makes it sound like there is some interaction between the two. Is that true?

Brett

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

It has to do with vortex shedding (you can do a wikipedia search). A true fluid mechanics guy/gal can correct me, but my understanding is this: Vortexes shed off blades/foils at any speed, generally alternating off one side, then the other. However, with our super-stiff CF foils, at a certain boat speed you hit a self-energizing resonant frequency where the vortex shedding interacts with the trailing edge making it flex in resonance and you can hear this as hum. By filing the edges asymmetrically, you destroy the balance (or at least shift it to a different speed outside your normal sailing range). You still want to keep that trailing edge as fine as practical to support clean separation and minimize drag.

--
Jeff R
'88 H18 "Jolly Mon"
'10 C2 USA1193
NE IN / SE MI
cramsailing.com
--

Thanks for that rehmbo. That led to an interesting discussion at boatdesign.net and the following chart:
https://www.boatdesign.ne…nts/nimetön-png.135501/
The asymmetric chisel shape (6) is given a worse value than the symmetric point (5), but sharpening the angle and radiusing the edge (7, 8) improve that value.
However, one of the yacht designers chimed in that an asymmetric chisel shape was better for high speed craft.



Edited by ropewalker on Jan 27, 2019 - 11:41 PM.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

Very interesting table. I wonder how that varies as a function of water velocity and angle of attack... Anyway, will keep #7 and 8 in mind the next time I fair my edges.

--
Jeff R
'88 H18 "Jolly Mon"
'10 C2 USA1193
NE IN / SE MI
cramsailing.com
--

Jeff;
I saw your post on Catsailor about rudder slop. Did you ever solve it?

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

ropewalker

I thought I'd post a follow-up:
So, I've had the C2 for about a year now, and am loving it. It takes a bit longer to set up than the H18 did, but I've never once regretted getting it. My wife loves it also. This really helps, considering it cost a few $$.
Goodall did a nice job on the controls and design overall.
The hull design makes it hard to bury them, although I have managed to do it, up to the front cross-bar, with the spin up. That brought me to a screeching halt. Lesson learned - keep weight back a bit more on the down wind.
It's a fast boat, and it points well.
The only oddity I've noticed is that the boat "hums" at high speed (didn't have a speed puck, so don't know exactly how fast). Wasn't able to locate source of vibration. My crew thought it was cool. To him, it meant it was time to get on the wire.
The engineer in me started wondering what was vibrating, and whether I should do anything about it. So, I've worked the edges of the rudders a little, and tightened the tension arms to reduce side-play when down. Will find out next weekend if this makes any difference.
Thanks everyone for the advice and good discussion. This is a great forum!

My Prindle 19 makes the same kind of noises when approaching 15 kts.

--
Captain Chris Holley
Fulshear, TX
'87 Prindle 19 "¡Hijole!"
'74 sunfish "1fish"
--

I went out this past weekend and heard the vibration once, briefly, around 14kts. It didn't last long, and didn't happen again the next time I got to the same speed. So, there's a resonance there, and I've narrowed the conditions that excite it, but didn't completely eliminate it. A fellow sailor recommended patching a couple of nicks in the rudders. I may be in the region of diminishing returns.
Oh yeah, I bought a speed puck.



Edited by ropewalker on Feb 12, 2019 - 10:45 PM.

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--