So i am about to get my first catamaran (Nacra F16) and was wondering what to wear if i wanted to go sailing in the time of year where the water temperatures are about 10-20 degrees celsius (50-68 F). Until now i was only sailing in warmer conditions and my cheap 3/2 wetsuit with short arms and long legs isnt going to be the best option. So would you guys recommend getting a thicker one with long slevees (and if yes: any recommondations ?) or a different setup ?
Thanks for your help and greetings from Austria!
Max
Those kind of temperatures are a lot like sailing around Michigan. I lovey Zhik super-warm. I have the overall style with a separate jacket. This gives you a lot of flexibility to either just wear the overalls or wear them with the wetsuit jacket. If it's any warmer I'm in just my swimsuit. Any colder and I'm in a dry suit.
If you go to a drysuit you won't care much how cold it gets. It is what you wear under the drysuit that keeps you warm. So fleece clothing is perfect in layers. You would be able to tolerate very long periods of time actually in the water and there is no significant effect of windchill on your body. Still big issues with your hands and head. They are bulky and expensive, but they allow you to play nearly year round. Check with your whitewater kayak friends for local sources. These are the same kind of suits as those guys wear to play in the rivers.
-- dg
NACRA 5.2 #400
This End Up
Original owner since 1975 --
When the waters get in the 50's and 60's and the air is chili i wear a bib dry suit from Kokata
Not too expensive, and works well
the gortex version is much better and 2x the cost
this bib has an elastic wasteband to curl into a dry top or spray top
the zipper is nice to vent on a sunny day (these can get over hot and sweaty fast) - but zipper should be closed at all times while sailing
+1 on those dry bibs. I have the same thing, picked them up on ebay in like new condition. Spend the money to get the zipper, life saver if you have to tinkle
-- Mac
Midlands South Carolina
AHPC Viper USA 366
A Cat USA 366
Super Cat 17 --
sailing in fl we can sail year round but it gets cold
water is lower 50's now and gonna get worse
some lessons I learned about cool weather sailing (ymmv)
do NOT wear cheap "jogging" pants (nylon) - they are SLICK and can slide you off your boat in a tack or when you heel
do NOT wear fleece under a spray top - if you fall off it will now weigh 4000 lbs and make getting back on your boat very hard and if its under layers and not the top layer ... you now have to strip to get it off - not good in heavy seas
hands, head and feet determine the fun - if they are cold and miserable - so are you: I carry spare sets of dry gloves, a small towel, and i have some neoprene gloves with grip that work well too
Good booties are important - cheap ones will fail at a bad time
So thanks for your help!
Is a drysuit the best solution or could i go with something like the superwarm zhik steamer, a spraytop, boots and gloves ? I would like to avoid buying a drysuit not only because of the price but mainly because it is bulky (and ugly )
I think it depends on if you are actually going to end up in the water. If you are sailing aggressively and/or want to sail aggressively without fear then a full drysuit is the way to go. The difference between the bib arrangement shown above and a full drysuit is that your body is fully sealed inside a drysuit, so taking a flyer into cold water is not a big deal and your body stays dry. Drysuits are like wearing a spacesuit, you are totally protected against the cold environment. If you get tossed in the water wearing the bib and even with the matching jacket it is not a fully watertight arrangement, you will get wet and you will get cold and you may have fun getting back on the boat with flooded gear. The bib and jacket are great if you are very sure you won't go for a swim.
An old rule of thumb that has always worked for me is to remember that if the air temp and water temp in F don't add up to 100° then some kind of wetsuit/drysuit is required. As a cold water whitewater rafter we say it is all about the swim, not the ride. So dress for the swim, not the ride.
Also really suggest trying one on before buying it. I'm a big guy and I had mine custom made so that I had a full range of movement for my arms. Anything that keeps you warm and safe can't be all that ugly
For sure get the "relief" zipper and remember to zip it shut after using it, really sucks to go swimming with that zipper open.
Edited by dmgbear55 on Jan 12, 2018 - 12:58 PM.
-- dg
NACRA 5.2 #400
This End Up
Original owner since 1975 --
so what you are saying a drysuit is the way to go ? No chance wearing some kind of wetsuit with additional layers? Id like to get a wetsuit because i think its more versatile.
sailing is similar to snow sports in a way
you start out cold but end up moving around a bunch and build up heat
for me
There is more "utility" in buying a bib and adding a spray top and/or dry top but more expense
a dry suit is great for sailing in cold conditions but not so good in between times
a bib can be easier to manage
gloves aren't part of this debate - you (I) need them either way
shoes:
booties are good for cold water not warm (buy a size up)
beach shoes can work over the built in socks (buy a size up) and are cheap but fall apart
Using the way back, way back machine here. I first started sailing on Puget Sound in Washington State during the winter months and we used neoprene wetsuits, typically made for diving. And we froze wearing them because of the evaporative effective of the water on the neoprene was greater than the warming of the neoprene and the work we were doing sailing. Then we made a breakthrough and started wearing cheap rain gear over the neoprene and we could sail all day until our armpits were raw from chafing. The wetsuits also saved your a........ when you went in the water. You would freeze initially as the water comes in, but slowly and surely in a well fitting wetsuit you will warm back up and for sure you are going to be able to rescue yourself.
The thing to sort out in your own mind is if there is a chance you are going into the water. If the chance is zero because you are a really good under control and conservative sailor, then you have several options to consider. But if there is even a small chance to go into cold water you have to have either have a well fitting neoprene type wetsuit, or a full drysuit. In my drysuit I can tolerate 20 to 30 minutes in the water pretty easily and have a good story to tell afterward and I would get back on the boat and just keep going. In a full neoprene suit I think 10 minutes in the water and then a very uncomfortable trip back to wherever you started. But you would get there.
In the bib arrangement I think you would be in big trouble if you actually went into the water. You would have cold water pretty freely circulating through the suit. It has no insulating value (unlike neoprene) when you are in the water and then the thing that would really concern me is trying to get back on a boat with a load of water in your bib and pants. This bib arrangement can be well sealed for the splashing of cat sailing, but unless there is something that actually seals at your chest or waist like a gasket, this could be dangerous.
I don't sail the cat in the winter anymore, but I do whitewater raft in the winter and spring. The chances of swimming from the raft are pretty rare, but once it has happened to you, you will never complain about your drysuit ever again. But after wearing one on a warmer day you will however find the money for the good gore tex suits. They are worth every penny.
-- dg
NACRA 5.2 #400
This End Up
Original owner since 1975 --
I have a dry suit it is a dui suit I bought for dreading gold a few years ago. It needs some repairing, the neck seals need to be replaced. It fits a 210 pound person. I am 210 at 6 foot 2 in just to say and it fits me perfect. I would sell it for about 300.00. If anyone interested. I have not tried to sell it anywhere else.
The neck seals, wrist gaskets and booties are all wear items and need to be replaced from time to time on drysuits. There are shops that do this kind of work, some suppliers like Kokatat will rework the suits, or if you know what you are doing you can buy these bits and do it yourself. Neck gaskets are always trim to fit for the person wearing it. So it would likely need to be replaced even if it were in good condition. These basic suits last a long time when taken care of.
-- dg
NACRA 5.2 #400
This End Up
Original owner since 1975 --
The one i showed does in fact seal the bottoms via the elastic wasteland
when you go in the pressure pushes the drysuit against your skin and the elastic wasteland work perfect in keeping you dry
I guess if you fell in, with no top on at all and stuck your hand into the bib to scratch or adjust ... you could get water in there ... but you'd have to be pretty drunk to be stupid enought to try and stick your hand down your pants while your floating (but who knows)
Clearly you have experience with this bib and I do not question your experience. I just have a hard time seeing how elastic, even tight elastic can seal out water when it is trying to seal against whatever clothing you are wearing to stay warm. Good kayaker type splash tops that have the large neoprene band at the waist do not seal up well enough to prevent water intrusion when you are in the water. Water does not rush in, but it is coming in. I have no idea how long you would have before the water leaking in would cause a serious problem and suspect that is a function of just how tight you can stand that jacket waistband to be.
The reason I want people to be aware of these key details in wetsuits/drysuits/splash gear is that in a cold water swim situation things can get really out of control fast. Time is of the essence when you are in cold water and then even after getting everything under control you still have to survive the return trip. So knowing what you are up against is critical.
On Puget Sound some of the best sailing is through late fall, winter and spring when the wind can be perfect. Weirdly in summer the wind often lightens up and becomes more flukey. So having the right gear to play in these colder conditions makes all the difference and also makes it really fun.
-- dg
NACRA 5.2 #400
This End Up
Original owner since 1975 --
with only a spray top (with neck and wrist gasket/flap)- its pretty much the same
Without a spray-top/dry top .. .just wearing the bib (and SOME kind of light jacket/shirt (like in the spring):
if you fall in during a capsize, fall overboard, walk in ... you can go up to your armpits and no water can get into the bib. If your tops get totally soaked... you can accumulate water above the neoprene
if you get thrown in and all your body goes underwater : the elastic waistband is such a major part of this gear that it does in fact seal up pretty tight -
I guess water could eventually pool and wick in i depending on what your wearing above and underneath i.e. water gets in your spray top/shirt... accumulates around the elastic and possibly trickle in - you'd have to be in the water a long time without pfd)
if you are wearing jeans underneath (as i have done in the past) and a sweater of fleece that is crossing through the upper and lower part, creating a path for water - this could be an issue in the sealing up (use of the correct gear would eliminate this risk)
All that being said:
i live in fl - and have sailed a lot
I have pretty much given up on sailing in any weather that calls for this gear
I use a mid-graded set of Kokatat dry paints (some synthetic multilayer but not Goretex) -- they seal well at the top and have built in socks that lend themselves well to socks inside and overshoes, booties, or sandals. I waffled on the dry bibs, and ultimately went with the dry pants. They have stayed dry thus far even after several wet launches. I think they'd leak a bit if I trod water in them without a dry top, but I have been very impressed with the wide neoprene waistband.
I have a Kokatat drytop from paddling that is utterly watertight. The goretex helps breathe, but it still gets warm fast... that said, with the inner 'skirt' of the jacket against my skivvies, and the wide, flat neoprene waist of the pants velcro-cinched tight over that skirt, and the wide, flat neoprene waist of the drytop velcro cinched overop all that, everything stays dry from outside water ... though a good sailing session generates internal heat.
I have a spray top that velcro-seals at the sleeves, and overlaps the waist... it lets water in when I swim, but is good for between times when it is too cold to wetsuit and too hot to drytop. The pants stay almost perfectly dry throughout, and the jacket drains pretty well out the bottom when I haul myself up on the tramp.
YMMV, but either way, be safe out there. I recommend testing your gear out on the shore BEFORE you NEED it to work perfectly. I learned the same way in paddlesports... gear up, paddle flat water, and do wet exits and recoveries with all your gear. Pulling the handle on the spray skirt can be intimidating, and it is worse yet when you're learning in cold water, moving fast, with rocks around you, while you're upside down.
+1
great advice
My friend who has the gor-tex bib (mine isn't) has a pool
he tested the heck out of his bib years before i got mine
I tested mine in his pool in florida (5 years ago or so)
- it was so weird:
at first i felt 100% wet after walking in but it was just the cold water pressing against my skin through the bib
after walking out, and taking off the bib - i was 100% dry
I trolled my head through the rocks to test my gear when I was learning to WW kayak. I stayed dry, but decided that WW kayaking was a crummy way to watch the fishes in the bottom of the river. I will take my nice 7' wide, 16' long cataraft anywhere and when the whole thing goes inverted I will just swim behind it down the river. Learning to high side on the cat has been endlessly helpful skill on the raft too.
So I agree, test your cold water gear in a non-threatening place first. I'm a full figure guy. Getting that waistband tight enough to stop leaks would likely make my eyeballs pop out.
-- dg
NACRA 5.2 #400
This End Up
Original owner since 1975 --
Since all of Austria is in the cold Canadian climes, may I suggest you find a crew member for each side of you, to help keep warm - especially while you are sailing the catamaran.
While ashore, a nice fluffy quilt should be enough for the three of you.
-- Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA --
I drug this post up because someone asked something similar in another thread... and because I have a bit more to add after a weekend winter capsize.
The dry pants stayed dry through the capsize and initial dismount/remount when the boat blew over the top of me (gotta be the boat's fault, right? ). After I righted the boat I grabbed the dolphin striker to prevent the boat from blowing right over again, and then climbed back aboard. The pants stayed dry until I pulled myself aboard (one hand on the trap handle, another on the front beam, and my feet on the H18's hull seam/lip). Moving/flexing that much allowed a little water in the velcro-ed neoprene waist seal... maybe 100cc's total. It was enough to pretty thoroughly moisten my socks inside the dry pants after I was done sailing and walking the boat in, but wasn't cold or sufficiently uncomfortable to even bother changing until I was back on shore, down-rigged, and ready to trailer home.
The spray-top fared less well than the drypants.... then again, there's no seal at all on the bottom. I was out of the water quick enough that I was barely damp across my belly and mid-back immediately after the capsize, but I was pretty wet from the armpits down after righting and reboarding the boat. With a poly shirt base and a fleece pull-over under the spray top, most everything drained out when I was back aboard, and i stayed pretty warm. The Kokatat drytop would have been way better, but it was warm enough that I traded the freedom of movement and relative comfort for the looser, cooler, less-watertight spray top.
If I was sailing Lake Michigan with water just warmer than ice cubes, I'd be much pickier about staying perfectly water-tight. On an inland lake, with low 60's air temp and 54F water temp, a long enough survival window to allow me to choose differently.
I sail April thru October, primarily in northern MT, and I rely on the safety of a drysuit, as swimming is always an option with me, and recovery is not always quick and easy. I have used a number of lower end, non Gortex suits, from HH, Kokatat and OS Systems, and all have kept me warm on the fringes of the season, in and out of the water. Being non breathable, the pile underlayers to get damp from perspiration, but I never notice it until I'm getting out of the suit. I have had one Gortex suit, and it did indeed breathe better, but it really didn't translate to noticeably more comfort. Any drysuit definitely gets too warm at some point, and I switch to various thicknesses of of wetsuit. Much as I'd like to have one set of gear that would cover all conditions, I doubt that's possible. I watch craigslist, and have often found drysuits (and wetsuits!) that were purchased by someone gearing up for an activity they didn't really take to, so lightly used for substantial discounts. Money spent on gear that expands your season, keeps you comfortable and safe, is well spent, and soon forgotten.
It is also the wise man that gets his wife/girlfriend/partner the drysuit/dry gear first before acquiring his own. Happy warm wife/girlfriend/partners let you keep playing outside in these more challenging conditions.
The chart Randii posted doesn't tell you how much harder it is to self rescue and deal with righting as you start getting cold. Not to mention the increased problems with decision making as you get colder. One of the challenges with hypothermia is you often don't even realize it is happening to you.
But with good dry gear playing year round is both possible and fun.
-- dg
NACRA 5.2 #400
This End Up
Original owner since 1975 --
Good points. Since the chart came from the United States Search and Rescue Task Force, I think they may be thinking of rescue by an external agent (them) more than self-rescue... and their times are Exhaustion or Unconsciousness, neither of which are conducive to righting a cat and dragging oneself back aboard.
)
