One lingering awkwardness I have on my cat is locking the main halyard ring on its hook at the top of the mast.

Shackle + ring look like https://www.windsport.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/02108.jpg

My current "winning" strategy is to set the ring leaning forward and tighten the shackle on the grommet until it's locked on that "leaning" position. Then hoist with minimal pull on the halyard itself (keeping the mast track lubricated, and feeding the sail enthusiastically); so the ring and shackle stay "leaning forward".

When it works It Works!

Knot is small, and facing forward. I recently added a little carbon fiber 'flap' on the half-righ that holds the halyard, and it helps a little bit. But not enough.

Mulling dipping the halyard end in liquid electric "tape" (with knot in place) so as to increase its rigidity... don't know what else to do. Suggestions? Tricks?

You did not say what type of boat you have

Martin,

Tip your boat over and see how the ring is engaging the hook. I had Robbie help me with this last weekend. Basically we bent the tiny ring where the halyard attaches to the big ring such that the ring can pass the hook properly. In our case, we bent the tiny ring forward to move the big ring further aft on the mast.

figure out which way the ring needs to 'lean' to ease engagement. best done at the end of the mast with the mast tip conveniently lowered several feet off the deck. tilted the right way way, the ring will ride the ramp of the mast hook right up and drop into engagement. tilted the wrong way, you won’t hardly be able to get it to engage. It is counter-intuitive, but even if some of the twist passes out in the halyard as it turns over the mast-top sheave, the remaining twist preloads/leans the ring onto the latch.

the other thing you can do is to turn the mast (easy if you have a mast rotation arm) to catch the ring on the way up (this also preloads the ring). this is the opposite of the maneuver you use to unhook the ring so that you can lower the sail. you can practice this with the mast up and a rope in place of the sail... that'll help you see what's going on as you rotate the mast.

you can also step a ways back from the mast and watch, which is a bit clearer somewhat from the side than it is looking straight up the mast from the bottom.

Been using this system on Hobies for decades. The most critical things are 1) have the boat pointed directly into the wind when hoisting and lowering the sail. 2) Know which way you need to rotate the mast to engage and disengage the ring from the hook.

The way these halyard systems generally work is with the boat pointed straight into the wind, you should be able to raise the sail all the way to the top of the mast until the halyard stops. Then release the halyard and the ring will drop onto the hook - all done. If you have difficulty getting the ring to hook, you may need to slightly rotate the mast so the hook turns towards the ring while lowering the sail.

To drop the sail, leave the mast unrotated. Hoist the sail all the way up until it stops and hold. Rotate the mast 90 degrees so the hook turns away from the ring (whichever side of the mast the hook is riveted to, turn the mast that way). Then release the halyard and lower the sail until the ring is below the hook. Then straighten the mast and let the sail down the rest of the way.

The type of ring can also effect how well the system works. In my experience, for Hobies, the best system is the halyard ring with the small loop welded on top for tying off the halyard and with the twist shackle not welded to the ring. Use the smallest overhand knot you can tie off the halyard to the ring.

Given that you used a Windsport part, are you sailing DART?
My dart works the same way as my H18. Dogboy gives the biggest hint-point directly into the wind.
That is almost never possible for me,(I hoist while Cat is on a SeaDoo lift).
Get a good pair of binoculars, stand back a bit, & have someone hoist. You will see exactly what is happening in that last critical 2", & why it won't engage.
Generally, with both boats I need to hoist til the ring hits the hook, drop it a few inches, then hoist again with a good hard,(but short) pull. You will hear the ring hit the hook, then it will slide right over. 99% of the time it hooks first try.
If the sail is being blown a bit to one side, it helps to rotate the mast so that the sail is directly in line with the bolt rope groove.
If it doesn't, have a close look at the actual hook. On both boats, after being banged around, I have found the hook slightly bent, which made things much more difficult. The hookup should be easy, getting the ail DOWN can be a bi#*h if not set into the wind.
The Dart manual says to " attach the halyard with the halyard knot facing aft, as shown in figure 22".
As shown here, bottom of page.
https://www.sprint15.com/…g_manual/rigging-p11.gif
https://www.sprint15.com/…g_manual/rigging-p12.gif



Edited by Edchris177 on Jan 19, 2018 - 07:12 PM.

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Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
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I'm sailing a foiling Whisper from WhiteFormula. Early rig (boat #8!), so the mast & hook are not be the same as later rigs.

Some/much of the experimentation folks suggest I've undertaken, and my conclusion is that this hook needs to "lean more forward". I religiously align mast+sail with wind, and change boat/mast/sail position to match when wind shifts.

When I manage to get it to stay leaning forward (by tightening the shackle so it grips the grommet in a lean-forward position until it reaches the hook), I win.

If I don't tighten the shackle or tighten it on a position that is not aggressively forward, I can sit there all day. The forward lean achieved by the knot and halyard, plus the shacke's "natural position" at the top of the grommet is not enough.

We can see it from the side (it's a tall mast, but it's clearly visible) - the ring is pretty close to the hook, leaning a bit forward, and "almost" catches, but doesn't. Or catches falsely and slips off immediately.

I haven't tried twisting the halyard, nor twisting the top metal loop of the shackle. Will experiment a bit with that. I don't quite follow the reasoning behind halyard twist direction.

Halyard twist isn't the issue. The biggest issue is a few mm difference in grommet position on the sail can cause all sorts of problems. I setup my ring and knot with the boat on its side and boom, got three different mains in a row to lock. Brand new main I used this past weekend managed to lock Day 1, day 2 we struggled for 20 minutes and finally tipped the boat...had a pro look at the hook and that sorted it for day 3. Fingers crossed no more issues but it's best to tip the boat and bend the ring into the right position.

The other option is to put some neoprene or similar between the sail and ring to force it into position.

On my SC15 the halyard ties into the bottom of the ring where the fixed shackle is welded. It's tied into one loop of a figure eight not. When I hoist the halyard is aft of the ring. This pulls the ring forward.
Dead into the wind is critical. To lower the main, I hoist up a bit and rotate the mast clockwise so the hook swings away from the ring. This works well most of the time. Then again,sometimes, it just aint my day.
This link might help. Scroll down to the series of pics that's a few posts down.

http://owners.aquarius-sa…topic.php?t=170&start=15



Edited by gahamby on Jan 21, 2018 - 02:15 PM.

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'82 Super Cat 15
Hull #315
Virginia
Previously owned: '70 H14, '79 H16, '68 Sailmaster 26, '85 H14T
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I recently changed my halyard ring, the old one was like the one in the picture in the first post but with a separate twisted shackle. It would not lock with the knot facing aft and would lock quite consistently with the knot facing forward. I had more issues unlocking, that's why i changed.
No I have this one:

I assume the little ring goes at the opposite side of the hook, so that the bigger part of the big ring is at the side of the hook, making it easier to lock and unlock. It worked fine but every once in a while I had issues unlocking. I suspected it is the knot interfering, so instead of a stopper knot I tied a bowline. Tested without sail to make sure I didn't take too much length above the ring. I worked fine, that was yesterday, lets see...



Edited by Andinista on Jan 21, 2018 - 01:03 PM.

We have a Dart 18 and have struggled as well. I agree with both dog boy and gahamby. The keys for us: dead into the wind and rotate the mast a FULL 90 degrees. On our boat, if the mast is not aligned with the front crossbar (wrong term, I know) the halyard ring will re-engage the hook.

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Dana, Holly, Emma & Hannah

LJ/Stu's Dart 18 (Sold! :( )
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I agree grommet position is probably part of the problem. I like gahamby's reference to tying the ring/shacke combo at the weld point. Will test that, could be a winner.

It's going to be different for each boat. The masthead shiv on a SC is out aft of the luff track a bit. This might not be the case on other boats. If I don't follow the procedure pictured in the page I linked,the ring will not lock.
If unlocking continues to be a problem there's always a small dia. trip line tied into the top of the ring and run down the luff. If I was going to be out on the water for an extended period and a long way from land I would rig a trip line so I could drop the main in a hurry if conditions warranted.



Edited by gahamby on Jan 21, 2018 - 02:05 PM.

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'82 Super Cat 15
Hull #315
Virginia
Previously owned: '70 H14, '79 H16, '68 Sailmaster 26, '85 H14T
--

Edchris177

Get a good pair of binoculars, stand back a bit, & have someone hoist. You will see exactly what is happening in that last critical 2", & why it won't engage.

Simple and smart. Love it.
Much better than Braille-ing away from the bottom by feel.

Randii

I twist my halyard line at the ring location several times so it naturally wants to rotate on top the hook once the sail is all the way up. So rotate that line and ring clockwise and it will grab the hook.

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Bill 404 21SE
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bill40421SE

I twist my halyard line at the ring location several times so it naturally wants to rotate on top the hook once the sail is all the way up. So rotate that line and ring clockwise and it will grab the hook.

Bill:

Our problem is not getting the hook to set, but rather getting the halyard ring off to take the sail down. What would you think of reversing your twist to make it easier to get off? Do you ever worry about putting too much strain on your halyard and accelerating it's wear?

Dana

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Dana, Holly, Emma & Hannah

LJ/Stu's Dart 18 (Sold! :( )
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Is your halyard line a non stretch or low stretch line? Maybe that is the issue?

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Bill 404 21SE
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Quote

Our problem is not getting the hook to set, but rather getting the halyard ring off to take the sail down. What would you think of reversing your twist to make it easier to get off? Do you ever worry about putting too much strain on your halyard and accelerating it's wear?

I really think it's either a technique issue or your hook may be bent a little
and as mentioned above: the bows really need to be directly into the wind as well
but every brand/model and even sometimes boat have their own "best practices"

even if everything is right - they can still be a PITA at times
at least your cat is light and flips easy on the beach :)

That being said - adding (too many) twists in your line (depending on the size of the line and block and amount of twists) COULD accelerate friction and damage from sand/salt and add to fraying of the line and maybe even accelerate/damage the sheave (turning block at the head) IF the twists add too much dimension the line for the block at the mast head -

bill40421SE

Is your halyard line a non stretch or low stretch line? Maybe that is the issue?

Dana's boat was previously owned by our local sail shop owner (who had been sailing for over 50 years i think)- I know him well and have even raced /crewed with him. he would never put a stretchy line on a halyard

i would be shocked if it wasn't robline xls

I had a Hobie 18 that I bought new in the early eighties, Must have had the main up and down hundreds of times the first three or four years of use, never with a issue. I took up windsurfing and didn't use for many years and when I did it would get stuck sometimes. I finally figured out that I used to rotate the mast opposite the direction the hook was on to unlock and rotate a little to the direction it was on if I had problems hooking. I was just rotating the mast without paying attention to direction. It is very important to know what side your hook is on. On older boats owners will switch the side when the rivets come loose. Also different manufactures will have it on different sides. A low stretch halyard is also important as Bill points out. Twist in the line could help or hurt depending which way the line is trying to force the ring. If the hook is bent or loose can also cause problems. As I found out myself and others pointed out here if you are having problems, you need to see up there what's going on with the hook. Most cellphone are capable of videoing what's happening if you have someone to help record. The hook and ring method is a very cheap and effective way to secure the main. I have gone to a two to one halyard system with a swivel cam cleat at the base of mast because of several reef points on several of my boats though. There can never be too much wind, just to big of sail .

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Tomcat 6.2
Supercat 20 / 17
Searunner 16 Tri home built
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Andinista

This is what i use on my 5.5 - knot MUST face aft or i am struggling to get it on the hook and not getting the sail down without flipping my boat on the beach as the knot interferes with the hook

MN3

bill40421SE

Is your halyard line a non stretch or low stretch line? Maybe that is the issue?

Dana's boat was previously owned by our local sail shop owner (who had been sailing for over 50 years i think)- I know him well and have even raced /crewed with him. he would never put a stretchy line on a halyard

i would be shocked if it wasn't robline xls

It's a yellow/green fluorescent colored line. that's about all I know about it, but it isn't very stretchy. I'm sure you're right about the technique as well. If the wind shifts just slightly or the mast isn't fully rotated, it just doesn't come off. I just need to keep practicing.

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Dana, Holly, Emma & Hannah

LJ/Stu's Dart 18 (Sold! :( )
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Quote

f the wind shifts just slightly or the mast isn't fully rotated, it just doesn't come off. I just need to keep practicing.

That's a good thing ... the ring should only come off in a very small range f

it may be worth taking a pic of the hook (while the mast is down) and posting it here for other dart owners to comment on it's placement