I've been watching a lot of videos of foiling, moths and cats. I understand that the next America's Cup boats will be 75ft long foiling monohulls, which do not have keels, and are balanced by weighted foils, very weighted I might add. Foiling technology, even with sailing, has been around since the 1950's, and now it seems like that technology is the big rage these days. I get it. I get that things change and things get better when the technology creeps into a subject, sport, or whatever, but is foiling really sailing? Reading the wind along with the waves? Foiling takes the waves out of the equation. I like the idea of moving forward with anything, but I just have a hard time with this technology when its applied to sailing. Please, dont hate me, I'm always slow to accept new things, and as cool as I thought the America's Cup foiling cats were, I was more juked up from the fact that they were Cats, foils or not. I watched the protest races from 1988 when Dennis Conner raced that 60ft cat and thought it was the most bad ass cat I had ever seen with it's hinged wing sail, I was awestruck!!! So, where do we go from here? I'm happy sailing my oldschool Hobie 16, (which lifts when the wind hits, provided from its antiquated assymetrical hulls which act as wings turned on their sides), but that's another story, hmmm, not foiling but same lift tech from that tech when you think about it. So, is foiling the future, or is it just a fad, been around a while, what say you?

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Marty
1984 Hobie 16 Redline Yellow Nationals, "Yellow Fever"
Opelika, Al / Lake Martin
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I was on the fence about all this foiling technology also until I tried one. The sensation of breaking free of the surface of the water and accelerating without hull noises is unique. And yes, foiling is really sailing. If your using the wind to push a vehicle with a sail through the water you are sailing.

Even though foiling technology has been around for a long time it has been the use of lighter and stronger materials that have broken through the performance barrier relatively recently. It will only get better. It took a long time for multihulls to go from monstrosity, curiosity, then tolerance to acceptance. Foiling is in the same cycle. The sailing community moves very slowly.

There are new products that have massively lowered the cost barrier to entry like the UFO from the Clark family and foiling kiteboards. This will get all kinds of new people into a boat that foils. Once you try a boat that foils you will understand what the buzz is all about.

One more thing. Foiling monohulls for the AC boat is a huge step backward in my opinion. The Americas Cup should be about innovation, sportsmanship and international competition. Frankly, ever since the protest series in the late 1980's and the many years of rules bending and "winning by lawyer" since then have significantly lowered my interest in the Americas Cup. Except the 34th AC in 2013. Probably one of the greatest sports achievements ever....in any sport. Also, the last AC in Bermuda was an all-time low. The coverage was horrible, the racing was practically unwatchable due to light winds and I found it insulting that it was not in America even though USA was hosting. It was like having the Superbowl in London.

I now follow the Jules Verne, Vendee Globe, M32 series, Race to Alaska, and Volvo Ocean Race much closer than the Americas Cup.

Just some random thoughts,

Brad



Edited by bradinjax on Jun 18, 2018 - 08:36 AM.

I don't think foiling is the "future" of the sport per-se, but it will certainly be a part of the sport going into the future.

Foiling boats are going to remain as a small nitch for those looking to push the upper end of the performance spectrum - just like beach cats, planing skiffs, and windsurfers have been. And there are already efforts to make foiling more accessible to everyday sailors. But I don't see displacement boats ever being entirely replaced by foiling boats - are Opti's, sunfish, cruising keel boats, and beach cats some day going to be entirely replaced by foilers? I don't think so.

Foiling is not a fad. It is certainly here to stay, and it is as much the future of the sport as opti's, sunfish, hobie cats, lead sleds, ice boats, and any other type of sailboat. For those who wish to persue it, it's the future. For those that don't, it isn't.

sm

I don't think it has to be one or the other ... foil or not. The lines are blurred with some of the curved foils that provide lift short of flying, and I'm excited to see more of them, even if they're not likely to retrofit to the older boats in what I'm willing to budget. In ten years, these new foilers will be down to my price point -- I can wait.

I was lucky enough to sit in a trifoiler behind a Ketterman in the late 90s, and I *still* gush about the sensations and the experience. Flying/foiling was one of the peak moments of my time sailing, but I'm not rushing to replicate it. I like beach cats too much... they are just different, and are tough to compare. They are both sailing in my book, but so, too, is running jibsheets on a J-boat. All good!

Quote

It took a long time for multihulls to go from monstrosity, curiosity, then tolerance to acceptance. Foiling is in the same cycle. The sailing community moves very slowly.

Well said! ... and we're still experiencing the ramp to acceptance. I read just yesterday that 'multihulls can't point.' Two weekend back I outpointed a mono as I was reeling him in, then I footed and smoked past. :p Pointless? :p

As for the American Cup... it is fun to watch, but there ain't much of that which trickles down to what I actually sail, whether AC72 wingmast or monohulls on stilts in a few years. :p I would actually WATCH F16, F18, M32 sailing coverage -- it is a much closer analog to what I love -- but between the limited instances of that, I'm just gonna go sailing on my own (and web-sail online during the workday).

Randii

Foiling is addictive fun, and small cats are the most stable, approachable foilers. You can't keep people away from fun stuff :)

Right now, Stunt S9 and Whisper are the two easiest foilers imo, and are cats. Essentially, if you can handle a modern cat, you can foil. There's stuff to learn, naturally, and if you can get a few outings with an experienced foiler you'll fast track your learning process.

There's also the UFO, and that's an odd boat but damn fun, durable and an unbeatable price.

If you like to drive your cat fast... don't theorize; try one! I'm in Miami and happy to take friendly folks for a ride.

All the boats mentioned here work well in displacement mode, and are stable, so you can opt to sail slow/safe. Some have straight boards you can opt to use instead.

Moths and Wazsps are inherently unstable - can't stop to eat a sandwich, nor sail them conservatively; there's a degree of masochism involved in sailing then ;)

As for myself, I got my hands on a Whisper, which I currently sail withy 8yo son. It's a hoot. I've taken my mother in law foiling. We have lots of videos, from early displacement runs to full flight https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwa0EvPl3EP65GVsM8EqCMA

Now with clickable link: https://www.youtube.com/c…UCwa0EvPl3EP65GVsM8EqCMA

Just try it -- addictive.

There are some contexts where foilers aren't appropriate -- dodgy beach launches with breakers, rough seas, shallow waters, etc. Anywhere else, I expect folks who like speed to be foiling. And cats are the easiest platform.

I agree that a catamaran seems to be a more stable platform for foiling with the foils on both hulls and not placed inline like the UFO. The iFLY15 seems like a fast and stable boat, I like it. What is the purpose of the rods that hang down in front?

--
Marty
1984 Hobie 16 Redline Yellow Nationals, "Yellow Fever"
Opelika, Al / Lake Martin
--

martyr

What is the purpose of the rods that hang down in front?

It is an "altitude" sensor. There is a linkage connecting the rod to the main foil, so when the boat lifts up, the rod drops down and in turn adjusts the flap on the foil to bring the boat back down. It allows the boat to maintain a stable flying height.

sm

iFLY15 and Stunt S9 are closely related, I think there's some tension between the two camps.

All the boats being discussed here have moth-style wands for ride height control -- here's a good video explainer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK5_nMYdmgE

And while they are expensive new, there's 2nd hand boats on offer at least for Stunt S9, UFO and Whisper in the USA that I know of, some in mint condition... make sure you negotiate for a lesson or two with your purchase price



Edited by martin_langhoff on Jun 21, 2018 - 02:56 PM.

MY SON IN NORTHERN eUROPE SENDING BACK VIDEOS/STILLS OF CATS & OTHER SAIL CRAFT, BEACHCATS ALIVE & WELL X THE POND, UNFORTUNATELLY DYING HERE. IN GOTJENBURG SWEDEN, VOLVO ROUND WORLD/WAS wHITBRED ALL BOATS IDENTICAL, TALL/WOOD SHIP REGATTA WEEK BERNE GERMANY,(BEACH THERE FULL OF CATS LIKE dEL rAY WAS IN HEYDAY) AN aUDI FOILING CAT LITERALLY UNDER WRAPS AND THEN ON DISPLAY WISH I COULD FIGURE OUT HOW TO POST PHOTOS ON THIS SITE

Martyr, there are two S9's in Fort Walton Beach, I can put you in contact with them if your would like. There are also several here in TX. Tons of fun!

Thanks, but I'm not in the market for a foiling boat, gonna keep enjoying my H16 for a while longer yet. Ft Walton is my old stomping ground by the way, when we go to the beach, that's where we go, hoping to get back down there again sometime later in the season. I would love to do Juana's!!! I know that's Navarre, but it looks like fun.

--
Marty
1984 Hobie 16 Redline Yellow Nationals, "Yellow Fever"
Opelika, Al / Lake Martin
--

Nah, it's just part of the scene and everything has a place.

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Master UniRig Sailor
--

martin_langhoff

Now with clickable link: https://www.youtube.com/c…UCwa0EvPl3EP65GVsM8EqCMA

Martin:

Apologies for the digression, but could you explain where the data on your videos comes from and how you get it to display? We've just bought a gopro and plan on mounting it on our boat. I'd love to add the data overlay, once we figure out how to use the gopro.

Dana

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Dana, Holly, Emma & Hannah

LJ/Stu's Dart 18 (Sold! :( )
--

Hi Dana!

No worries. Some of the fancier GoPro (Hero 5/6 Black) cameras, and the Garmin VIRB line, have an embedded GPS unit. If enabled in the settings, this will save GPS track data synchronized with the video, in the video file itself.

Not many programs can read this data, usually known as "telemetry". On the GoPro side, I use the "GoPro Quik" editor (google "gopro quik telemetry" for a howto). It allows quick and cool video edits, with telemetry, but also with some limitations.

I cut my trapezing teeth soloing a Dart 16 - go Darts! post links to your videos here!

Martin:

I sure will. We have the Hero 4, so I don't think we have GPS built in. I have a cheap android phone I use as an IPod for when I run. I wonder if there is program that would use the gps to capture the data built into your gopro.

In any event, I'll definitely upload our shenanigans. I'm going to try to use it at a regatta this weekend.

Dana

--
Dana, Holly, Emma & Hannah

LJ/Stu's Dart 18 (Sold! :( )
--

A quick google says there's some apps that'll record video with gps track - https://forum.mapillary.…cording-app-with-gps/657 and https://play.google.com/s…may.routeshoot&hl=en_US
My guess it that it'll kill the battery quick, but you can add battery packs, etc.



Edited by martin_langhoff on Jun 30, 2018 - 03:16 PM.

In summer, there's a couple hours of sunlight after work... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2-CoX30xoo and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5noFYT453k



Edited by martin_langhoff on Jul 06, 2018 - 11:41 AM.

Martin do you know what app the person foiling in the video is using to get the speed dial on his video?

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Scott
ARC 21
Prindle 18
Annapolis, Maryland
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I'm the person foiling in the video -- I'm using a GoPro Hero5 Black, with GPS enabled to capture; then GoPro Quik Desktop app to add the speed dial ("telemetry") and edit to the music.