I saw some reference in a post to certain models of F18s being part of the Dead Boat Society, and have seen a ton of Infusions for sale. What was the rule change or new tech driving this?

--
John

Nacra 5.0
CT
--

ctcataman

I saw some reference in a post to certain models of F18s being part of the Dead Boat Society, and have seen a ton of Infusions for sale. What was the rule change or new tech driving this?

Just my opinion but it appears as if locally for us F18 has seen a decrease in general. Add on top of that Nacra's subpar customer support in the US and I think that explains the Infusion's decline. Plus, the C2 is a better thought out boat and QA/QC seems better.

--
Joshua

Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
--

from what i gather:

cat sailing in the us is close to dead
very few US producers still in business - very poor support available
Condos killing beach access - townships don't want masts on beaches
SUP, kayaks and even kite boards are a lot easier to "Rig" and enjoy (no mast to step)

as per the infusion: unless it's the latest model - it's obsolete - this is true for most early gen boats f18 esp with all the advances in foiling

MN3

cat sailing in the us is close to dead

I disagree. It is not the heyday it once was to be sure, but on life support? Then again, so is almost every form of sailing. I think we all should be sailing in and by populated areas. Watching a guy/girl on the wire ripping down the beach just out past the breakers silently is freaking cool. It's precisely what got me into cat sailing to begin with. A Hobie ripping through the surf.
The US has a real issue with public perception of sailing. Show them its not what they think.

On F18, I'd still take a Tiger. Good enough to go play with the local fleet, but not worried about dumping thousands a year on the latest and greatest. Technology is just too fast for lowly 'ol me to keep up.

--
Joshua

Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
--

ctcataman

I saw some reference in a post to certain models of F18s being part of the Dead Boat Society, and have seen a ton of Infusions for sale. What was the rule change or new tech driving this?

The thread you are referring to (I believe) was in reference to the Bimare F18HT. The F18HT was a separate formula class that somewhat spawned off of/was based off of the original F18 class but involved even more expensive, niche boats (basically 100% or nearly 100% carbon construction) and as a result the class never really took off (for obvious reasons).

With regard to the “regular” F18 class, that class has been in existance for over 20 years. That it is a manufacturer driven formula/development class, means that older boat designs will constantly be obsoleted and discontinued by the manufacturers as the designs evolve. It is simply the nature of the class and something you have to accept if you intend to own/race one of those boats.

sm

badfish

ctcataman

I saw some reference in a post to certain models of F18s being part of the Dead Boat Society, and have seen a ton of Infusions for sale. What was the rule change or new tech driving this?

Just my opinion but it appears as if locally for us F18 has seen a decrease in general. Add on top of that Nacra's subpar customer support in the US and I think that explains the Infusion's decline. Plus, the C2 is a better thought out boat and QA/QC seems better.

I think this seems like a lot of speculation. I run Nacra and was also F18 Class President for 4 years. Is Nacra perfect in the US? No it's not...but I'm also only one person running the company because we don't sell a lot of boats. We rely on our dealers as partners and are constantly trying to improve, but it's not easy because most dealers aren't selling enough to support their Nacra efforts. We're doing our best... we're selling less than 20 boats a year, yet we still have a US Warehouse with boats and long parts ready to go, insurance (which is not cheap), they pay me, and an entire team and building in the Netherlands. I work also for 4 other companies to pay my bills but stay on top of Nacra needs... when we're selling 50+ again then we can dedicate more resources but the math with our current structure doesn't even work yet we're still chugging along as if it does, and we advertise on this site!
In the meantime you can contact myself, one of our dealers, or purchase directly from our online webstore.
If you have an issue with Nacra please contact me at Todd@Nacrasailing.com

As far as the C2 being better thought out and Quality... I've owned 4 Infusions, 2 C2's, and a Wildcat. They all have their pros and cons, a hybrid of all of them would be best. The factory parts of Nacra are definitely the highest quality and function, but the C2 has some clever design, where the Wildcat has very nice rigging.
But the C2 and the Infusion have been built in the same factory for 10 years (even changed from one factory to another together) and while there are some slight differences in construction both are very good now. I had problems with my 2009 Infusion, but I also had problems with my C2s and Wildcat.
I believe the nature of the decline in the F18 is due to the people in the class changing. In the Northeast, a bunch of us that were active in our 20's are now settling down and sailing less, others got older and etc. Each fleet has their transitions. The A Class is currently doing well because it's mostly a lot of older people with time on their hands.
Is some tech driving F18 used sales? No I don't think so. I don't know anyone selling their boats to buy an Epoxy boat or a boat with a decksweeper. Over time people have sold their MKIs with short boards to get newer boats with long boards, but that's a natural progression.
The great thing about the F18 Class is it addresses Catamaran sailors natural desire to evolve, our boats evolve slowly but it's by no means an arms race. A few thousand dollars every few years and you can have up to date kit, and it could probably be even long. Long boards came out 8 years ago and cost about 3K and Decksweeper came out last year and cost about 2K. So 2 major changes in 8 years.
As we go through ups and downs over the last 10 years, the common driving factors of the used boats is simply 1)Recreational F18s selling 2)People looking to get out of the class completely 3)Very occasional someone looking to upgrade
The F18 Class is hanging on in the Northeast, Southeast, Wisconsin, and SoCal. All 3 areas had good success a few years ago and are going through a slump but it's not over. Michigan is booming and has a solid F18 fleet and hosting this year's North Americans.
Bit of a rant but hopefully this answers some questions.

-Todd Riccardi
Nacra Sailing North America



Edited by nacrasailing on Mar 21, 2019 - 06:16 PM.

Quote

very few US producers still in business - very poor support available

I didn't mean poor - i meant sparse or non existent
I have had some great support from Mystere even when they were out of business - (thank you !)

Todd you have been doing a great job supporting Nacra USA! and a great asset to this forum (thank you !)
when i hit the lotto i am purchasing a dozen 580's and dozen f18's from you

Our fleet has, at most, two boats that are the same model. Most of our boats can't sail in some local events because they are the wrong make. Sure there is still the one OD fleet and the F18 can pull a start together. I do think cat sailing will continue to wane if "Open" fleet sailing is the exception rather than the rule. There just isn't the number of overall boats on the water there once was. Pulling every boat available together is help to maintain a minimal critical mass.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--

nacrasailing

-Todd Riccardi
Nacra Sailing North AmericaEdited by nacrasailing on Mar 21, 2019 - 06:16 PM.

Opinion is just that. My opinion.
I raced F18 on an Infusion MKII, it was a fantastic boat. My skipper still swears it was faster than his current C2. (Nacra rudder setup is easily superior) Truth is though, he traded up in large part because of a lack of support from Nacra. Business is fickle. If you don’t sell boats you can’t support them, I get that. People were buying though, just not Nacras as evidenced by the explosion of C2’s in our local fleet. Who knows what came first, the chicken or the egg?
F18 is a challenging fleet. I personally believe there is room for a two tier fleet to allow room for the novices to join with the secondhand “outdated” boats and yet still be competitive. I hope the class can work around these problems. It’s too much fun to have the kite up, on the wire at 20 knots with a dozen boats doing the exact same.
Ultimate point is, I really would like to see a larger market for the “Dead Boat Society” and for the record, I REALLY want a ride on the 500 Sport!



Edited by badfish on Mar 21, 2019 - 10:33 PM.

--
Joshua

Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
--

Quote

I disagree. It is not the heyday it once was to be sure, but on life support? Then again, so is almost every form of sailing. I think we all should be sailing in and by populated areas. Watching a guy/girl on the wire ripping down the beach just out past the breakers silently is freaking cool. It's precisely what got me into cat sailing to begin with. A Hobie ripping through the surf.

I live is sailing mecca. protected bays and sounds, gulf access, warm water and 11 months of sailing

at our beach there is a rental shack, called SAIL honeymoon
he rents 100's of sup's a week - out of his rentable sail boats ... he rents a few a month these days and we have a few sailors flying hulls and doing "stadium runs" (show-boating it up and down the entire beach line). We have flashes going off at sunset - and yet people don't rent sailboats - they rent sup's and kayaks

nacra usa sells 20 boat a year
sailing shops are closing all around us in the tampa/st pete area
Local hobie dealer sells a ton of kayaks - almost zero catamarans
youth racing is done on ancient 420's
the s.e. market for used cats has imploded (used boats have lost the majority of their resale value)
there are almost zero "NEW" recreational catamarans sold in the usa these days . (used sales are not a part of GDP)

I'm gonna stick to my statement "cat sailing in the us is almost a dead sport"

MN3

Quote

I disagree. It is not the heyday it once was to be sure, but on life support? Then again, so is almost every form of sailing. I think we all should be sailing in and by populated areas. Watching a guy/girl on the wire ripping down the beach just out past the breakers silently is freaking cool. It's precisely what got me into cat sailing to begin with. A Hobie ripping through the surf.

I live is sailing mecca. protected bays and sounds, gulf access, warm water and 11 months of sailing

at our beach there is a rental shack, called SAIL honeymoon
he rents 100's of sup's a week - out of his rentable sail boats ... he rents a few a month these days and we have a few sailors flying hulls and doing "stadium runs" (show-boating it up and down the entire beach line). We have flashes going off at sunset - and yet people don't rent sailboats - they rent sup's and kayaks

nacra usa sells 20 boat a year
sailing shops are closing all around us in the tampa/st pete area
Local hobie dealer sells a ton of kayaks - almost zero catamarans
youth racing is done on ancient 420's
the s.e. market for used cats has imploded (used boats have lost the majority of their resale value)
there are almost zero "NEW" recreational catamarans sold in the usa these days . (used sales are not a part of GDP)

I'm gonna stick to my statement "cat sailing in the us is almost a dead sport"

I suppose I'm just an optimist. Sure SUP rents better than sailboats. It's cheaper to rent and easier to learn.
Yes kayaks dominate the market, god only knows why but I cant blame Hobie for getting in it. Heck, I'd like to have one of those Tandem AIs.
We still have a few sailing shops, but admittedly they either cater to big boats or to dinghies. I half blame it on everyone going online for their needs.
The used market for cats is still pretty strong for us in the sub 5k range.
Youth racing is still facing challenges, but kids are making the leap onto Nacra 15's, A-cat, etc. RedGear Racing in Clearwater seem to have no problem staying busy.
The local club held a free "try it out" day and we had a ridiculous amount of interest. Now, we had a lot fewer people actually show up but of those who did, every one of them thoroughly enjoyed themselves and half of them either started crewing or went out and purchased used cats. I feel like its more of an accessibility and image issue. Let's just say I've never seen anyone come back from a ride and not be grinning ear to ear.

--
Joshua

Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
--

I appreciate your optimism and pov - i just don't agree that cat sailing is "strong", surviving or even viable in the modern US economy


"The used market for cats is still pretty strong for us in the sub 5k range."
not in the south east values have plummeted -

"Youth racing is still facing challenges, but kids are making the leap onto Nacra 15's, A-cat, etc. "
The rich kids will always have yacht and polo ponies for sure

"RedGear Racing in Clearwater seem to have no problem staying busy."
Being a top private coach for pros and olympic hopefuls (and the occasional recreational sailor), and being the SE rep for the top racing cats has been good to Jill and Robby - there are VERY few professional sailing coach jobs in this country - a 2 person company that are constantly on the road does not indicate "a strong industry" to me

MN3

I appreciate your optimism and pov - i just don't agree that cat sailing is "strong", surviving or even viable in the modern US economy


"The used market for cats is still pretty strong for us in the sub 5k range."
not in the south east values have plummeted -

"Youth racing is still facing challenges, but kids are making the leap onto Nacra 15's, A-cat, etc. "
The rich kids will always have yacht and polo ponies for sure

"RedGear Racing in Clearwater seem to have no problem staying busy."
Being a top private coach for pros and olympic hopefuls (and the occasional recreational sailor), and being the SE rep for the top racing cats has been good to Jill and Robby - there are VERY few professional sailing coach jobs in this country - a 2 person company that are constantly on the road does not indicate "a strong industry" to me

Maybe this just means we can buy more used boats...
I can only hope you're wrong. Time will tell. 'Til then, sheet in and sail hard.

--
Joshua

Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
--

Sarasota Youth Sailing has 3 Club owned Nacra 15s and are buying 2 more soon, and they have 1 private one! Another program in RI has 3 and probably buying two more soon!
There is a future!

dssaak

Our fleet has, at most, two boats that are the same model. Most of our boats can't sail in some local events because they are the wrong make. Sure there is still the one OD fleet and the F18 can pull a start together. I do think cat sailing will continue to wane if "Open" fleet sailing is the exception rather than the rule. There just isn't the number of overall boats on the water there once was. Pulling every boat available together is help to maintain a minimal critical mass.

Most of the time we run two classes. Spin and Non-Spin. Everyone gets to play. Not everyone is happy with their rating (or more likely someone else's rating) but hey, we can all play or we can all stay at home. Its that simple and if you can drag together 3 like boats, you can have your own start at RCs discretion.

--
Joshua

Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
--

Joshua,
"The local club held a free "try it out" day" how was this event advertised? We would need to the same thing

thx

ste4

Joshua,
"The local club held a free "try it out" day" how was this event advertised? We would need to the same thing

thx

Facebook and Fliers at the local shops. Had a bunch of experienced skippers (not just ones claiming experience) bring their boats out to give rides, we also had skippers to climb aboard a beginners boat if he/she wanted to. Lunch was provided by the club as well as extra lifejackets, harnesses, etc.
We ended up with a good array of boats for people to try out from P16's and H17s to F18 and everything in between. The look on the faces from people who have never been on a cat or even sailed before coming back from a downwind sleigh ride with a kite is priceless.
We counted it as a success and plan to do it again this year.



Edited by badfish on Mar 22, 2019 - 03:33 PM.

--
Joshua

Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
--

Fantastic! We will try to do something like that with our club this summer. I think we all need to be proactive and do creative things like this to get this great sport bringing in new sailors. What a great way to do that.

thanks

Best of luck.
I mean let’s be truthful. We’re going to sail anyways and most people enjoy giving rides, why not make it an event?

--
Joshua

Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
--

We've had a bit of luck and a bit of success (as a result of planning) in Michigan. One thing that has helped a ton is a 100% run what ya brung philosophy. Most regattas have 2-3 and sometimes 4 separate starts. Some fleets are more serious (in our case F18), and others less so. And that is fine. One of the biggest and most fun groups is the open 16 fleet. These guys bring their $500 backyard disaster boats and have an absolute total blast.

This has created a good foundation - both culturally and by providing a good supply of guys/gals that get hooked that eventually start having spinnaker envy, interest in HCA class-legal racing, etc. I think all clubs need to be run with this as goal.

The world is a different place than it was 25yrs ago (hay-day of cat racing), but with a bit of deliberate focus and patience, it can and will pay off.

Will our luck continue? I sure hope so.

--
Jeff R
'88 H18 "Jolly Mon"
'10 C2 USA1193
NE IN / SE MI
cramsailing.com
--

rehmbo

We've had a bit of luck and a bit of success (as a result of planning) in Michigan. One thing that has helped a ton is a 100% run what ya brung philosophy. Most regattas have 2-3 and sometimes 4 separate starts. Some fleets are more serious (in our case F18), and others less so. And that is fine. One of the biggest and most fun groups is the open 16 fleet. These guys bring their $500 backyard disaster boats and have an absolute total blast.

This has created a good foundation - both culturally and by providing a good supply of guys/gals that get hooked that eventually start having spinnaker envy, interest in HCA class-legal racing, etc. I think all clubs need to be run with this as goal.

The world is a different place than it was 25yrs ago (hay-day of cat racing), but with a bit of deliberate focus and patience, it can and will pay off.

Will our luck continue? I sure hope so.

Note: If you're bringing in the beaters of the group, might want to plan for a bit more on the water support boats...haha!
We even have a few folks that put away their "race boats" and instead race around on Hobie Waves. It's great fun. Participation is key, and making it less about placement and bragging rights and more about the fun.
Have a 1st-3rd place, but I would like to see a "Best wipeout", "Middleman", whatever else you can think of, because what we (and many others) found is that the clubs almost inevitably fracture into one of two groups. Racers and Cruisers. They each need the other is the funny part, so give the racers what they want, a chance to win bragging rights, and give the cruisers what they want, a good time. Make it fun for the entire family (including those not on the water) and I believe that's a recipe for success, but then again as I said, I am an optimist.

--
Joshua

Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
--

Fortunately the F18 isn't a dead boat society thanks to the support of Nacra and Goodall in the states! Hobie had a good thing going with the Tiger in the late 90's and early 2000's which helped kick start things as well. These are all still great boats and early Infusion and C2's are still competitive when fitted with new sails and good foils. Mike and Tripp came in 2nd at the Worlds on a 2013 Goodall C2; I spent 2 summers competitively racing a Infusion Mk. 1, finished 2nd at the Statue of Liberty Race on the boat, spent time in the top 15 at Catacup and more recently beat a number of competitive sailors in a 35 mile distance race on that same boat. If you can find one in good shape I would not hesitate to race either of these boats in a local fleet or at the Nationals level.

What is hurting F18 sailing in the U.S is time, lack of crew and to some extent the price of new sails. They are pretty expensive and tough for most to keep up with given the rising cost of living...having a partner in the boat helps with both problems. I myself am short a driver for the season in the Annapolis/NE area. Others up north have similar problems. So if you have a little bit of experience and are looking to go faster reach out to the class and we'll get you a ride!!



Edited by samc99us on Mar 23, 2019 - 02:09 PM.

I'm a relatively new F18 owner, and I think that more used boats means the prices will entice more people to get one. Down here in the desert, most folks opt for H16's 'cause you can pick one up off Craigslist for $500-$1000. There are a few I20's, but I see a couple of H16 skippers eyeing the F18 as a possible upgrade. I've had a couple out to sail on mine, and flying the spin made for some big grins. I know I got hooked on it the first time out.
At first, I worried that there would be a move toward foilers, but I don't think the cost is attractive enough yet. There are some Tigers and Mk1's for sale that would be perfectly fine on the little lakes we have here. Our races are a mix of many different boats, from I20's down to a wave. From what I'm seeing in this thread, that's the case in other places too. I will say, it would be nice to have a few more F18's here; we could have our own "fleet".
The other competition for sailing dollars would probably be F16's. I don't know why there aren't any around. One of the things folks like about the H16 is that they can single-hand it, and move it around on the beach easily. Finding crew can be a pain. That actually helped steer me towards an F18. I couldn't find an F16 anywhere close, and I figured that if I were going to buy a two-person boat, it ought to be something fast enough to interest people looking to crew.

Brett

--
Brett
2012 Goodall C2 with 2014 Hulls (warranty)
1992 Hobie 18 w/ SX Wings (Sold)
Tucson, AZ
--

It is unfortunate that there are not more F16s around with more "affordable" prices. The class is a great platform and the Blades I own are a testament to Matt and his crew at now Falcon Marine. I would recommend them to everyone as they check off a lot of boxes.

That said, two points ... one, who cares what you have? From the oldest H14 to the newest F18, bring it out and sail. Hopefully there are race committees out there that feel the same way so folks can do the racing side as well. You may have folks that only come out once per year but if there is a lot of those, cat sailing will continue.

Two, own more than one boat. I was lucky to buy my Tiger for a good price. It has been for sale on this site for a good price for a long time with no takers. I doubt I will now sell the Tiger and I have the best of both worlds for me. F16 for 1 up and Tiger for when the wind picks up and 2 up is required.

In the end, it isn't the manufacturers that keep this sport alive, it is the sailors that do. Take that friend for a ride and make the love of sailing contagious.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--

The F16 does tick off a lot of boxes but for me doesn't cut it on the racing front as its hard to get a fleet together. If someone is interested, there is a very good condition Viper for sale at my club for under $8k. No real serious takers that I am aware of...

I agree that for all club/weekend events bring em' all out to play. We cannot afford to be exclusive in this day and age.

Re: the move to foilers: The price point isn't there yet (fortunately) and I personally not a fan of most 2 man foiling solutions (the Whisper is probably the exception). They are too aggressive for those that only sail occasional weekends and in racing scenarios can be dangerous. I know about 5 non AC helms I would trust to drive a 2 person foiler in the U.S with me crewing, but I also don't like swimming too much!! I think what will help the F18 class grow some is the convertible boats may have some folks buying F18's that otherwise would have gone with a pure foiler, and hopefully they'll come race with the class :)

Very good conversations... I agree that it is the sailors that build the fleet, not the manufacturers or dealers. If we rely on the dealer to support the class, their support will disappear as soon as the next model comes out. These events/races need to have a big social aspect as well as the racing part. Not a lot of people race with their spouse, so.... usually a spouse and/or kids are left at the beach while the other is on the water. We used to have a huge gathering of people at the Dike while we were out racing. I think they hosted their own beach party while we raced. Which is fantastic. Each group needs that person (or people) who jumps in and starts organizing things. That is how these things stay alive. I remember when we made the decision to shut down MSA. There was only a couple that was running things and they got burned out. When you see a class or fleet build and thrive, it is usually from one or two people who are "pushing the rope". Or, when you see a fleet die out, it is from when the driving force leaves. It definitely follows the theory that 20% do 80% of the work. We spent decades doing this for the multihull fleet in Galveston Bay. Making calls each week to make deals on getting people out on the water. It wears people out. But, if the event is enjoyable for everyone, many people are willing to help out. There is a big social aspect of these boats. Hang on the beach, go sailing, chat with friends, repeat... There is a big increase of people buying the $500 - $1,500 catamaran and using what they have. I am in full support in that. If you have a P-18 and are interested in a spinnaker also, stick one on it. Will it be as fast as a F-16, probably not, but you will be within your budget and you won't freak out when you scratch the hulls. And, you will have more options of racing or sailing. I get the cheap boat thing. I have one boat that I have assembled out of spare parts. I think we need to continue having social gatherings, not necessarily to just race. The ones who want to race will group themselves together. The problem with the new boats coming out is it divides an already divided fleet. In our area, the majority of boats racing are non-spinnaker older boats. When you add a few spinnaker boats, now they need to be in their own class. Add a couple of foilers, now another class. What happens when there aren't enough for a class? They will usually get rolled into another class. Many spinnaker and foiling boats are more prepared for racing than non-spinnaker boats. Like many of us, I grew up with 100-120 boats on a race weekend and have watched the decline. As boat technology changes and improves, the ones who are left behind, are just that... left behind. That is the problem with any box-rule class. I'm all about innovation and improvement, but with the reality that it takes money. I think we need to build fleets from the bottom up. We need the new people buying cheap boats to learn and get excited and maybe upgrading to a faster race boat, or they stick with what they have and continue to enjoy life. But, we need to go a bit old school on race courses to entice them. We need the triangle with a reach leg. Many non-spinnaker boats get bored sailing downwind. There are tactics and much can be won or lost, but many of these racers are more excited about a screaming reach. I have been proposing to go back to a triangle windward/leeward course (A-B-C-A-C). Make the reach (B mark) 90 degree from the beat. Now insert 18-20 knots of wind... instant grins... Some of the biggest challenges (and wipeouts) was making the turn at B mark. I understand the spinnaker guys don't care about reach legs.. That's fine.. give them a double windward/leeward (A-C-A-C) course. I have heard a lot when I propose this of "... other people are not doing it." I'm used to building courses that no one else has ever done. If we only follow, nothing will progress.

--
Scott

Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC

Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
--

Quote

If we only follow, nothing will progress.

--

Well said, Scott.

--
Joshua

Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
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This thread is relative to the F18...a F18 on a reach can be a scary thing...I do it regularly so would welcome the course and it is used at the Worlds level occasionally, but I think the RC has to be prepared for wipeouts and folks to go swimming.

The big thing is making sure the slower/beater boats are included...they show up, go racing, see the faster boats on the course and want a piece of the action. If they don't, that's totally cool, its more folks to enjoy the party with at the end of the day. I can tell you this is lost on the East Coast, especially with Hobie not in the F18 game and in a way the H16/Wave events and F18 events are mutually exclusive. Regardless, there is something appealing about a H16 that takes 45min to rig and 25 to break down at the end of a weekend while I'm still pulling the kite out of the bag...foilers are moving back to classics in the A to some extent and when the breeze is up many miss the F18 sailing for its less stressful than doing 30+ kts on a $30k foiling A-Cat. Point is lets figure out how to cross the divide...locally one solution we have is a 1/2 length course for the non-spin boats on days that its light air.

Well said, Scott. I thought my friend Pete was a collector but you are giving him a run for his money. You & Sam have hit on all the highlights. We (https://sites.google.com/view/communityfleet) have been at it over 15 yrs and do a lot what you described. We don't do buoy racing for the most part but point to point. Come to Upstate NY in July and check out our type of racing. I like to put everyone on the same course and believe we have the system to do it.

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dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
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