We'd like to be able to make downhaul adjustments while trapped out. However, the cam cleat on the mast cannot be released from a low angle, especially when under heavy tension. Should we replace the mast cleats with Spinlock PXR cleats or do something else. Thanks. This is for an I20.



Edited by traphappy on Jul 23, 2019 - 03:31 AM.

Spinlock PXR cleats are not the right block - they don't swivel and would really restrict the sheeting angle to one specific angle - you need a swivel

I have both spinlocks and cam cleats for my downhaul (spinlocks on the 6.0 and ronstan cams (on a pivot) on the 5.5

there is no difference in cleating angles - all depends on the location on the mast

unless you move them very low on your mast - they are problematic

i would suggest you use minimal settings between tacks/jybes (either released fully for off wind or slightly engaged for upwind) and sheet -in as needed - from the wire (really mostly needed to reduce heeling)

there are really few instances when you MUST release the downhaul - but many instances when you WANT to increase the amount of downhaul needed

the big issue is getting crew (or skip) used to getting in off the wire and releasing d/h every time while transitioning to the other side (this is probably optimal anyway as you want to reduce the downhaul for the sail to shift to the other side



Edited by MN3 on Jul 23, 2019 - 08:18 AM.

MN3,

This is a topic where I'm going to have to disagree. Downhaul isn't played between tacks and gybes. Its played constantly from the wire upwind, blown downwind until its really breezy and you still want some on (not a lot if you care about your rig). Its not a setting I touch in a tack ever, I mean maybe I should but I'm more concerned about either roll tacking the boat or getting to the other wire as fast as absolutely possible so I can take the main from the helm immediately and get the boat moving agian.

I have 4x Spinlock PXR0206/VP's sitting in my box, I'd be happy to sell a set for 40% off retail. The reason I'm not using them at the moment is they don't hold that well on 4mm line; these were sent back to Spinlock for testing and came back fine, with the recommendation to move to 5 or 6mm downhaul line for the high loads. That is what the folks in New England have done as well.

In terms of un-cleat ability, one needs to move either setup as low on the mast as possible; on the Infusion, folks drilled into the mast base casting itself with the lower fastener for the bracket, and that works pretty well. Other boats negative riser plates on the cleats can help with.

The other trick of course is making sure you have 16:1 rigged, but that doesn't solve the high cleat loads per se.

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This is a topic where I'm going to have to disagree. Downhaul isn't played between tacks and gybes. Its played constantly from the wire upwind, blown downwind until

I don't mind you correcting me at all -
in this case I was suggesting you release it during the tack and (re)set it from the wire

since i sail solo most of the time, and rarely race - i don't have crew to manage my sheets so i must use this approach

traphappy

We'd like to be able to make downhaul adjustments while trapped out. However, the cam cleat on the mast cannot be released from a low angle, especially when under heavy tension. Should we replace the mast cleats with Spinlock PXR cleats or do something else. Thanks. This is for an I20.Edited by traphappy on Jul 23, 2019 - 03:31 AM.

We had Spinlock PXR on a swivel on an Infusion, led out to crew trap and then bungee'd in the front beam.
I've found that you're sheeting more on from the wire than easing. Though there are those much better than I that will play downhaul a lot. I have a hard enough time keeping up with everything to be adding one more setting to play. I just want the ability to crank it on when the breeze kicks up.

--
Joshua

Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
--

Thanks all!

As mentioned, the location on the mast is important. They are mounted quite high on the (stock) mast. I also have knobby 8-plait line that is naturally hard to release. Currently the extra line gets sucked into the beam. I made the setup but made the mistake of cutting the line and installing a sister near the beam for easy mast removal. I think this will make it difficult to attach it to the crew trapeze. The sister clip may not play well at times with the turning block on the crew trapeze. I don't race aside from club events, but do like the idea of being able to have more control over the downhaul on days when the wind is up and down. It would be nice to be able to play it in and out from the trapeze, especially because it makes a huge difference in the boat's performance (ability to sheet main properly without going over). We use other settings such as diamond wire tension, board height, and rotation, but downhaul is key. Sam, thanks for the offer to sell a couple. I'm still in the research phase.

Trap,

How often are you mast up and down? It sounds like not too much. Ditch the sister clips and go with either a continous splice or make cover to cover eyesplices in the ends and tie them together with opti sail ties. You need the line to run through the front beam continously and correctly. Any other setup is sub par. I use Coppa 5000 for this application, have plenty in 5.5mm and 4mm I can sell with the eye splices and the correct length (38' for leadout to forward trap line, 42' for french setup below).

I have successfully used two downhaul setups and I prefer our current setup, which is what the French team (Billy Beson and Marie Riou) developed for the Nacra 17. We come off the mast, go to a turning block that is tied to the rear corner of the tramp on a long (3' lead) such that the trap line is basically right at the daggerboard trailing edge, then around the shroud eyes and into the forward beam. Either crew member can reach down and grab it and play it from the wire. No hanging up when you cross the boat as crew. Its also pretty similar to what I have on the A, except there I go into the rear beam with it. Both the A and Nacra 17 Mk. 2 rig everything aft as its rare that you are forward of the shroud on either boat with the foiling. On the Nacra 20 or F18, go to the front beam.

We cross sheet upwind, with the helm playing the downhaul and the crew the mainsheet. It is very effective in conditions where you can just barely stay 2 up on the wire but you also have puffs coming in.

For singlehanded work it is more of a set and forget deal and you play the main and drive.

sam just curious: if your d/h line is through the beam ... how does one cleat / uncleat it?

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sam just curious: if your d/h line is through the beam ... how does one cleat / uncleat it?

The line coming out of the cleat is led aft. The excess is sucked into the forward beam via shock cord magic.



Edited by traphappy on Jul 23, 2019 - 01:24 PM.

Sam, leading the downhaul aft sounds like a banging setup. I really like the idea. Great when downhaul access reaching (crew is more aft) or when sailing with novice sailors (I can handle downhaul). I often take out people who have never sailed before and give them the mainsheet to play the trap within half an hour of leaving the beach. I hold onto the traveler line in those situations and would be the one to make downhaul adjustments. I appreciate the offer to sell/share some of your great line. I am thinking to experiment with dinghy control because my lengths will be different than the ones you mention. My beam shock cord take up is slightly different than the ideal set up but it works well. I am thinking about how you said 4 mm line would slip in the Spinlocks. That gives me pause because I was thinking to try 4 mm dinghy control line. I want the thinnest possible because the downhaul is slow to play out as it is. It pops loose when at high tension, but the lower tension settings require some time for things to loosen. Thanks!

Sam, I don't take the mast down a lot. I will ditch the sister clips. I would love to splice the existing line. It is FSE Robline 8-plait Dinghy Line 5 mm (wound polyester core). I have a D-splicer, and more importantly, access to youtube splicing videos (totally learning here!). Problem is that this line probably cannot be spliced.

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then around the shroud eyes and into the forward beam. Either crew member can reach down and grab it and play it

I'm not familiar with the N17 or your boat, but that would run it right with the tack line for the kite, no?
This is essentially the setup for our tack line on a C2.

--
Joshua

Texas Gulf Coast
'82 Prindle 16 (Badfish)
'02 Hobie Wave (Unnamed Project)
‘87 Hobie 18 (Sold)
‘89 Hobie 17 (ill-advised project boat, Sold)
--

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The line coming out of the cleat is led aft. The excess is sucked into the forward beam via shock cord magic.

i get that the line is ran aft but unless the line is lifted up towards the sky - pulling the sheet only adds tention
what i don't understand is if your hand isn't near the block ... how does one uncleat it?

It is best to release the downhaul from near the block, or more importantly in line with the cleat. That is the tricky bit, and where a Spinlock PXR on a swivel would help. You aren't going to release it from the front beam for example.

badfish: I have a Scorpion F18 and prior to that 2x Nacra Infusions and 1x Nacra 20. My Scorpion is rigged the same as Easton/Burds Infusion setup for the tackline: http://www.microwindracing.com/boat.html

The tail is right at the front beam and therefore not an interference issue with the downhaul. I can certainly see how the aft spin pole tack line is nice, but not necessary. Nor is my downhaul for that matter; the current world champions sail with it attached the to crews trapeze like most boats.

Trap, I no longer use dinghy control for high load situations. Yes it works okay and in a downhaul it works reasonably well, as you rarely cleat in the same spot, but I've been moving to products with tougher covers. You can splice your 8-plait together by removing the polyester core and just doing a cover to cover splice, as there is no real load on the tail going into the bungee takeup.

PM me if interested in my line, the Coppa 5000 5.5mm is ~$1.20/ft and the 4mm is $1.00/ft. SK78 core, low stretch, technora cover, easy to splice. I haven't noticed much difference between the two in terms of easing in Harken 16mm blocks.



Edited by samc99us on Jul 23, 2019 - 02:37 PM.

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It is best to release the downhaul from near the block, or more importantly in line with the cleat.

so when you're on the wire - you can add downhaul but you aren't going to release it until your back on the boat ...?

I'd like to adopt Sam's idea (run downhaul line back), but preserve the line that I have (currently cut and joined with sister clip) if I can splice it back together. The APS specs say the line (FSE Robline 8-plait Dinghy Line 5-mm) cannot be spliced. However, it looks like it could be spliced end to end by removing some core and splicing the cover. I have a D-splicer that I've been waiting to learn to use. Could this work, and then could I use this line with a Spinlock PXR swivel cleat? Perhaps the big consideration (???) of using it with the cleat is that the core is not dyneema, but rather polyester. The cover is also not very loose. As a side note, this line slipped on me in a 150 cam cleat when used as a spin tack line. Thanks. It would be cool if I could learn to splice and save $100 as I try to improve my downhaul setup.



Edited by traphappy on Jul 23, 2019 - 08:08 PM.

I am guessing that the experience of having that line slip in the Harken 150 (when another line worked great with the cleat) suggests that the Coppa 5000 (grippier???) would be the correct choice to use with the Spinlock, which may be questionable in their performance to begin with? I am trying to save money but don't want to blow a new cleat and afternoon using "slippery" line.

MN3, no, the downhaul can be released from the trapeze by the helm, just not the crew if forward of the sidestay. I'll send photos along later of the setup I installed on a Nacra Inter 20 last night.
@ traphappy, yes you can do a cover to cover splice after removing the core, but if you found this line is slipping, then I wouldn't use it. Its relatively low stretch but not as low stretch as a dyneema cored line. Marlow Excel Racing or Coppa 5000 4mm are my go-to's in a downhaul setup with micro swivel cleats, need to jump to 5-6mm line for use with the spinlocks. I use Coppa 5000 5.5mm as my tack line in the Harken Micro Cam-Matic cleat. The Harken 150 is a big cleat and I would not use anything less than 6mm line in it.

For me, saving $33.60-$48 worth of line just isn't worth it if its the wrong line for the setup. Also, to do my setup you need 48' of line (46' after you do a cover to cover eye splice in each end), and 5 Ronstan Orbit 20 blocks outside of the mast setup.

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I'll send photos along later of the setup I installed on a Nacra Inter 20 last night.

awesome - thanks for all the details Sam (and patience with my density)
look forward to the pics

Great information. Thank you! I am looking forward to seeing pictures of the setup when you have time. I am also interested in exploring the idea of running the downhaul straight to a take-up in the rear beam. In either case, I will have all of the materials to go with that or any of the mentioned setups (mast to front trap to beam or French).

My current downhaul setup is 8:1. I plan to add two Harken 29 mm T2 blocks to make it a 16:1 cascade system. This should reduce forces on the Spinlocks and make releasing easier. I won't crank like a mad man on the downhaul and damage the luff. I will rely on increasing diamond wire tension and downhaul on windy days. I'll go with the 5.5-mm Coppa 5000 line.

I appreciate the help figuring this all out. It will be awesome too have finer control over the downhaul.

16:1 still generally results in high loads on the blocks. You'll find you are cranking the downhaul on breezy days because adjusting diamond wires on the Inter 20 stick is a pain in the ass, and even with more diamond tension, more downhaul is helpful. 16:1 gives you finger tip control.

PM me to sort out details on line if you need em'.

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The line coming out of the cleat is led aft. The excess is sucked into the forward beam via shock cord magic.

is there an exit and cleat on the front beam?
that would explain how crew can cleat/uncleat on the fly / and on the wire

Nope. Not saying that isn’t possible, but on all setups I’m aware of the clear stays at the mast base due to the loads and line stretch.

Photo here: https://www.thebeachcats.com/pictures?g2_itemId=131890

No self tacker on this boat (crew is a legit rockstar).

Thanks Sam
does the crew have to grab the line forward of the turning block (what is currently on the tramp)? otherwise not sure how it could uncleat from behind it

That is correct, but aft of the shroud.

ok - whew - finally got it
seems like a lot of hardware and line just to get extra line sucked up the front beam but if it works for you while racing - cool beans

Its the same setup that is the factory race setup from Goodall, Falcon, Cirrus, Windrush and probably Nacra. The only change is the block that is normally attached to the crews trap setup has been moved aft of the shroud to the trampoline, and the downhaul lengthened to accommodate.

This isn't needed on a boat with a pinhead sail or otherwise doesn't respond to downhaul very well. For everything else, you need to play downhaul. As the downhaul is essentially an 8:1 setup on a doubler, there is a lot of extra line when you have max downhaul on (approximately 4') that has to go somewhere. The front beam is the right place IMO.



Edited by samc99us on Jul 29, 2019 - 04:07 PM.

we just use less line and tie it to the crew's neck (jk)

thanks for all the detail Sam - you are a great ambassador for the sport