Was thinking of adapting a self tacking system on the Tornado, and maybe the Nacra. I see the Crossbow and a rope based set up. The first is really $$$ and the latter is a kluge. Any other solutions? I see systems on F18s but dont see used ones for sale. Thanks.

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John

Nacra 5.0
CT
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why?
what is your end goal?

here is my 2cents:
My second 5.5 came with a f18 self tacker track on it.
i sailed it several times with that system as crew for the boats previous owner. it was fine but...

unless your racing stock boats with upwind downwind courses, where spins are used on the downwind leg - what is the advantage?

less lines and controls to deal with? - nope - pretty much the same (give or take a few)

less line handling (i.e self tacking) - maybe some downwind when it's not sheeted tight but upwind you still need to uncleat the line to let the block slide to the other side and re-cleat... so not much less handling - at least that was my experience on all legacy boats using self tackers. perhaps modern systems are a bit smother and require less handling but that would be news to me and up the cost

more deck space? - yes this will clean up your deck a lot but you have a 10'beam already .
and you could move your jlb blocks to the beam and reduce sail area/open deck area with much lower costs

Disadvantages:
$$$
new sail needed
new hardware needed (track, car, traveler system, etc)
possibly new sheets and lines

my track required 6 or 8 big holes in my front beam.... not a huge deal on a young freshwater boat, not so great on a legacy salt water cat


changes the sail-plan and handling a bit (can easily be overcome but a factor)

(usually) lose the ability to have a furling system for med-high wind sailing.

less sail area for downwind / non spin sailing - (this is a big one for me)
basically unless you use a spin ... you have significantly depowered your boat with such a small fore sail where size is king. upwind it's not the size of the sail ... it's how good it's shape and sheeting is



Edited by MN3 on Dec 17, 2019 - 07:01 PM.

Disagree with you MN3...properly setup self tackers do exactly as they say, and greatly reduce crew work downwind with a spinnaker. The real question is, is this particular Tornado setup with a spinnaker? If not, it may not make a lot sense as the performance loss downwind would be substantial.

Used self tackers very rarely come up, because they don't tend to break or wear out. Your options are Harken, Holt-Allen or a custom Ronstan setup from eXploder. All work well, so comes down to price and availability. Overall I would go for one, but only as a total upgrade to the sport setup, less the mast, honestly there isn't much performance gained with the carbon rig, I've raced head to head on identical Tornado's with and without the carbon rig and been beaten by the aluminum rig converted to sport.

Quote

Disagree with you MN3...properly setup self tackers do exactly as they say, and greatly reduce crew work downwind with a spinnaker

Keep me honest, i don't ever mind conceding to those with more experience



Edited by MN3 on Dec 17, 2019 - 07:58 PM.

I wonder exactly how the geometry on the 5.5 was setup. I will add that in medium breeze with the jib sheeted tight it can help to ease it an inch or two in the tack, but I also do this to give me a larger gap when tacking forward of the mast (necessary on a crewed boat with decksweeper).

My primary comparison is sailing the Nacra 20 with and without the self tacker. Crew work is literally double without the self tacker, as in every gybe you have to manage the kite and the jib, which isn't fun when racing in breeze. Upwind is worse, as the sheet loads are high and if you don't get the sheet off in time it can take a lot to uncleat.

Thanks for the feedback.

The Tornado had a classic rig and is being converted. We got a sguare top main this season, and a spin set up.
The spin isn't set up yet as we want to learn its use as crew for someone before installing it. It has an aluminum mast that will stay.



Edited by ctcataman on Dec 18, 2019 - 12:33 AM.

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John

Nacra 5.0
CT
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Quote

I wonder exactly how the geometry on the 5.5 was setup. I will add that in medium breeze with the jib sheeted tight it can help to ease it an inch or two in the tack, but I also do this to give me a larger gap when tacking forward of the mast (necessary on a crewed boat with decksweeper).

My experiences with self tacking have been on that 5.5 and supercat 17's

no disrespect to the previous owner but i am pretty sure geometry was all guesses and never experimented with

It's possible the jibs on both boats were blown out / out of shape and required extra sheeting to optimize sail shape but made auto tacking harder


i did not use this system when i owned this boat and removed the carbon fiber track and sold it

both of these boats needed sheet management upwind



Edited by MN3 on Dec 18, 2019 - 08:19 AM.

ctcataman

Thanks for the feedback.

The Tornado had a classic rig and is being converted. We got a sguare top main this season, and a spin set up.
The spin isn't set up yet as we want to learn its use as crew for someone before installing it. It has an aluminum mast that will stay.Edited by ctcataman on Dec 18, 2019 - 12:33 AM.

Be careful with the aluminum tapered rig with the square top main. Many of the masts (classic rigs) were designed for particular crew weight and a specific main sail load. The square top main could over load the top and break the mast at the forestay. I have a second mast that has an internal taper and a chute from my P-19 that can be used. I have found that with the beam, unless you drive through the tack perfectly, you can end up in irons on your tacks. I prefer to have the overlapping jib for backwinding. Plus, I don't want to buy more sails. I have a 10' P-18-2 that I race singlehanded full sail. Tacking and jybing the jib singlehanded is usually not a problem; unless it is a 1/2 nm leg course. The main challenge I have downwind is getting barber hauler on, sheet set, mast rotated and keeping a straight line...

Something to consider and talk with your sailmaker is how the airflow will change and affect your performance is you go to a self tacking jib. Since you have already built the main, you will be working backwards on design. Keep in mind that the jib starts the airflow for the main. For simplicity, I like the idea of a self tacking jib. I have most of the hardware in hand to build one, but just not sure I want to go that route. I need the "punch" from the jib in our area.

I would suggest adding a furler on the jib.

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Scott

Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC

Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
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Quote

I wonder exactly how the geometry on the 5.5 was setup.

here is a video of the boat under sail - lots of shots of the setup -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UGtFkCsSiY&t=246s

i do now see (now that i'm looking) the luff looks way to loose and i'm pretty sure that capricorn jib wasn't cut with a furler in mind

at 3:30 you can see me need to loosen the sheet to get the sail to tack

be sure to check out the rattlesnake we turn around and sail directly over at 4:01 :)




Edited by MN3 on Dec 18, 2019 - 01:11 PM.

I agree with Sam, he just beat me to the response. A self tacker significantly reduces workload, frees the crew up to run the main and spin sheets better as well as cleaning up the deck a LOT.

Don't quote me, but I think Harken still sells the old style track which is cheaper than newer crossbow setup.

Instead of spending a ton of money on the latest and greatest, I'd check with BNR and see if they have a used one. bnrwatersport.com

Same goes for the jib, see if BNR has a good used self tacker before buying a new one. Bart does not list all of his equipment on the website, so you should definitely email him to ask. Note, even though the T is 10' wide, I think an F18 self tacker would be fine.

I would also check with 1D (http://onedesignsails.com/) and Landenberger (https://www.landenberger-onedesign.com/en/productsshop/2nd-hand-sails) sails to see if they have any used jibs.

Shipping from Europe is very reasonable and the availability of used sails/parts is much greater there.

Also, regarding a furler, no. You won't be able to run a full batten jib and it won't work with the T jib setup.

Harken, as of 2+ years ago, no longer sell just the track for the old style Nacra self tackers. They got rid of the small machine that bends the 13mm track. They attempted to bend 2 sections for me on their larger machine, and at each bolt location it had a nice kink in it that won't allow the traveler car to flow freely. I believe they have their Crossbow setup manufactured elsewhere to eliminate this problem. Ronstan might be able to help, something I will investigate further as I would then have a complete track assembly available.

I ordered a custom bent 22mm high beam track for using together with a Tornado jib, from Harken Sweden. No kinks, looks great, job done by Harken USA. Fitting to the main beam is no big problem. Found the info at https://groups.io/g/TornadoCat

After I bought the track I actually built a roller bender, as I had some more tracks that needed bending. Bent a 22mm low beam track and as samc99us points out, you get some kinks at the bolt holes, the traveller anyway seems to have no problems. Have it on my 3m widened Nacra 5.5 with F18 rig.





Edited by revintage on Dec 19, 2019 - 03:56 PM.

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Brgds
Lars

Frankentri 5.8/5.5/Inter20
Aerow trimaran foiler

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1192604934176635
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I have some extra Nacra self tacking kits available. They are F18 style. Complete kits including all lines and blocks for $700US+ shipping

I almost forgot about catsailing.net for Tornado specific parts.

https://catsailing.net/selftaker.html

A F18 track will not do as it has a radius of below 170cm, for Tornado 180-185cm is needed. Radius depends on distance to the forestay not the jib foot. Maybe the F18 track might fit your Nacra 5.0 but you have to carefully check the beam to forestay distance against a F18 first. I used Nacra F18 radius for 5.5.

Harken custom bent track was ca 120USD in Sweden. A used Harken Small Boat traveller should be quite easy to find. But you also need the swivelling cleats on the main beam together with a few small blocks. My guesstimate for all parts are around 300-350USD. The layout is available at Tornadocat. Ideas of how to build the track fittings are to be found here:

https://taipan.asn.au/TT17.php

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Brgds
Lars

Frankentri 5.8/5.5/Inter20
Aerow trimaran foiler

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1192604934176635
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Great info, and the bending jig picture was super helpful. I could likely do that.

Thanks

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John

Nacra 5.0
CT
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Having owned a Taipan 4.9 that was not self tacking and an F-16 that is, the self tackers are much less work and less deck clutter. However, you give up significant jib sail area for a self tacker. The sail area you give up will alter the balance of the boat, as it will be sail area (and mast placement) that the boat was designed to have. I would find a small non overlapping jib and sail with it before I did any significant mods.

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Falcon F-16
Taipan 4.9
S2 7.9
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About Tornado this is the geometry to go for:







Edited by revintage on Dec 20, 2019 - 05:02 PM.

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Brgds
Lars

Frankentri 5.8/5.5/Inter20
Aerow trimaran foiler

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1192604934176635
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Great sketch Lars!

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John

Nacra 5.0
CT
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Hi CT,
I am building a 3.2m widened Nacra 5.8 with Marstrom Tornado mast, Nacra 20 main and self tacking Tornado jib. The 5.8 has the same forestay to main beam distance as the Tornado. Good luck with the build!

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Brgds
Lars

Frankentri 5.8/5.5/Inter20
Aerow trimaran foiler

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1192604934176635
--

Hello John,
How did this project go?
BTW....I'm also interested in this sort of project. My mast should be fine.....as it has already been set up for a kite. (It's the Alum Marstrom from the 2004 USA boat for the Athens games)
Cameron

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Cameron
Tornado (Marstrom) USA 851
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The self tacking conversion is still pending. Got caught up in too many higher priority projects. Probably biggest hurdle will be modifying an overlapping jib.

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John

Nacra 5.0
CT
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ctcataman

Probably biggest hurdle will be modifying an overlapping jib.

Likely better off buying a self tacking jib. Keep an eye on BNR, Landenberger and 1D, can probably find a very lightly used one from them for not much more than having an old one recut.



Edited by wlrottge on Jun 10, 2020 - 04:22 PM.

John,
What kind of snuffer did you end up getting?

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Cameron
Tornado (Marstrom) USA 851
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Hey Y'all!
I'm in the processes of doing the same mod on a recently acquired Miracle 20
Got tracks, car and blocks from Nautos USA. Very good price on everything with HOLT quality.
Sails for the boat are being custom made by Somerset Sails. I do plan to put a spinnaker on it.
But that's for later since I have a H16 that I plan on racing and need some TLC.
I'm glad I found this tread since I had no idea how I was going to bend the track (jk I was just hit it with a rubber mallet, little by little till it got the radius I need. No more cave man technique).

Revintage, I'm also interested to know how you're widening your boats...T beams, longer rudder crossbar, new tramp, bridles and stays? Anything else?
The Miracle is the narrowest boat I have ever seen and the first thing I thought when I saw it was to widen it.

Best regards to All
Yam