As everyone here knows, the Dart is great to sail in greater than 8 knots of wind, but is absolutely painful under that. Here in Florida, most of the summer is below 8 knots. I'm thinking of purchasing a sail from a different boat to use strictly as a low wind sail. I appreciate that changing the sail also changes how the boat sails, which is why I'm reaching out.

Does anyone have thoughts on a boomless sail that would work and wouldn't change the sailing dynamics too much?

In the discussion of Steve's Dart 20 Stampede, he used a modified Mystere sail.

TIA,
Dana

--
Dana, Holly, Emma & Hannah

LJ/Stu's Dart 18 (Sold! :( )
--

It’s hard to get more sq ft. You could use an N7.5, also boomless, but, the Dart mast is 2’ shorter. You would have to cut the sail down, or have no room as it sweeps the deck.
Same goes for the foot. The Nacra sail is longer, but unless you could move the main blocks further back, you wouldn’t be able to obtain sheet tension.
A new squaretop might give more sq ft, but that’s an expensive option.
My solution is to keep several Cats, the Baby Dart for over 20 it’s, & a Hobie18 or Nacra for lighter days.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

One other option, the Dart carries a hanky as a jib. You could put a 5.7 jib on, but I’m not sure how much speed that would gain you.
It would be easy to try if you can borrow a jib for an afternoon.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

to add more main area you will need to lower the foot a little, add a squaretop and much more roach ... there isn't anywhere else to do it

so a 5.7 could be drastically recut and provide all that -

i THINK you already have an oversized jib if i recall correctly what Stu told me - you could find out the stock measurements and verify this. but also adding an ever bigger one could be an option

at the price of purchasing 2 sails in good condition and having them modified ,.. Ed's argument for a second boat may not be a bad one.

Boomless gets tricky in mixing and matching. You will need to verify the mainsheet angle and distance from traveler to clew. For playing around, you can typically cut 2' off the top of a pin head main to convert to a square top. I had cut a pin head Tornado main down for my P-19 years ago, but I had to use a short pennant. I used it for 25+ knot winds. It actually fits my P18-2 perfectly. With a trained eye, I can notice some funkyness with the top, but for the most part it works very well. I would look into adding a foil and bigger jib. With the square top main and the foiled jib, you are adding efficient sail area - the square top bleeds off easily and the jib power is down low. The foil does add some complication of visibility leeward forward. You could have two jibs for different breezes.. A small expense for piece of mind.

--
Scott

Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC

Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
--

I fabricated a foil for my dart and rigged a hobie 18 jib, seemed to work ok .A bigger main would be the way to go as you seen to get more drive from your main.I have a couple of p18 mains that I was going to get around to modifying to fit.A nacra 5.8 recently fell in my lap so I am restoring that to be my light wind boat.
I have heard of but never seen it, a dart 18 locally with a hobie 16 rig
the h18 jib is in this vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owv2JhcULSw



Edited by onekiwi on Jan 27, 2020 - 01:45 PM.

--
Carl

Dart 18x2
Nacra 5.8
Acat
Windrider Rave x2 for sale
--

Edchris177

One other option, the Dart carries a hanky as a jib. You could put a 5.7 jib on, but I’m not sure how much speed that would gain you.
It would be easy to try if you can borrow a jib for an afternoon.

MN3 is correct, I already have an oversized jib. To be fair, I’m sure some of my difficulty in low wind is lack of skill. That said, you can only imagine the frustration of barely being able to overcome the current.

--
Dana, Holly, Emma & Hannah

LJ/Stu's Dart 18 (Sold! :( )
--

MN3

to add more main area you will need to lower the foot a little, add a squaretop and much more roach ... there isn't anywhere else to do it

so a 5.7 could be drastically recut and provide all that -

i THINK you already have an oversized jib if i recall correctly what Stu told me - you could find out the stock measurements and verify this. but also adding an ever bigger one could be an option

at the price of purchasing 2 sails in good condition and having them modified ,.. Ed's argument for a second boat may not be a bad one.

I’d consider a Nacra 5.0, but storage is the issue for me. I’d pay far more to store a second boat than I would a sail. If I can identify the best sail to modify, I may be able to pick one up used. Absent someone with greater experience telling me this is not the way to go, that’s the plan.

--
Dana, Holly, Emma & Hannah

LJ/Stu's Dart 18 (Sold! :( )
--

dartsailors

Edchris177

One other option, the Dart carries a hanky as a jib. You could put a 5.7 jib on, but I’m not sure how much speed that would gain you.
It would be easy to try if you can borrow a jib for an afternoon.

MN3 is correct, I already have an oversized jib. To be fair, I’m sure some of my difficulty in low wind is lack of skill. That said, you can only imagine the frustration of barely being able to overcome the current.

Fully understand the frustration. When I started on cats, we would leave sailing mid afternoon and come home late night. Which meant there was very little wind, as in 0-3 knots. I learned patience very quickly. I also learned the most efficient way to paddle a catamaran. In light air, the catamaran emphasizes the need for true sailing basics. I was lucky enough to start racing cats with some very fast people. I always remind myself, "... if in doubt, let it out"

--
Scott

Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC

Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
--

Is rigging a spinnaker out of the question? I've done diy spinnaker pole and chute for light air on a dinghy.

You wouldn't want to use it in any real wind, but for light air...

You'd pair it with a 2nd hand kite from an 18ft cat or from, say, a 29er. I'm sure you can buy a beat up 29er kite for peanuts.

Headed back to Fort Lauderdale 2/12 but don't have my spare jibs there to re-experiment with all my sails to determine if on light wind days a different sail configuration on my Dart 18 would speed things up. However these are the combos I've tried on low wind days on my dart 18 I keep on Fire Island NY: A Prindle 16 jib worked out best because much smaller and tmanageable than the Hobie 16 jib- also experimented with my. Nacra 5.2&5.5&5.7 jibs but way too unwieldy even when reefed. I also tried Hobi 16, Prindle 16 Mains & my Nacra 5.2,5.5&5.7 mains-all were way too large even when carefully reefed.( my friend Malcolm Stitt Tornado sailer has successfully cut down larger sails for his ice boats but I don't have the courage.)At one point had Dart 18 and Nacra 5.7 for 3 seasons and yes that was best solution. Also Great South Bay what I now sail on off fire island( use to sail on the Atlantic) almost ALWAYS has wind over 12k , so when u rig a larger jib and wind builds you have negative results and on Dart 18 jib and main difficult if not impossible to lower because "hooked" in when underway- ( Nacra 5.7,5.5&5.2 mains require a 2to 3 foot higher mast!) Hobie 16 jib was kind of like a gennecker also because Dart 18 mast does not rotate on a plastic/Teflon ball like my Nacra 5.2,5.5,5.7 the aluminum on aluminum Dart18 mast set-up actually can wear out!!!i have had to replace 1 Dart 18 mast because of this I believe larger sails could contribute to greater wear & tear on mast base! The Hobie 16 jib(I pinpriked tiny holes in H16 jib and fit thin cord so jib would run up Dart 18 forestay)was like a gennecker/spinicker andrunning with the wind on low wind days was enjoyable, and negated the frustration of being wiped out by my friends Hobie 16s Nacra570. ( worst of all monohulls)& etc on low wind days

Headed back to Fort Lauderdale 2/12 but don't have my spare jibs there to re-experiment with all my sails to determine if on light wind days a different sail configuration on my Dart 18 would speed things up. However these are the combos I've tried on low wind days on my dart 18 I keep on Fire Island NY: A Prindle 16 jib worked out best because much smaller and tmanageable than the Hobie 16 jib- also experimented with my. Nacra 5.2&5.5&5.7 jibs but way too unwieldy even when reefed. I also tried Hobi 16, Prindle 16 Mains & my Nacra 5.2,5.5&5.7 mains-all were way too large even when carefully reefed.( my friend Malcolm Stitt Tornado sailer has successfully cut down larger sails for his ice boats but I don't have the courage.)At one point had Dart 18 and Nacra 5.7 for 3 seasons and yes that was best solution. Also Great South Bay what I now sail on off fire island( use to sail on the Atlantic) almost ALWAYS has wind over 12k , so when u rig a larger jib and wind builds you have negative results and on Dart 18 jib and main difficult if not impossible to lower because "hooked" in when underway- ( Nacra 5.7,5.5&5.2 mains require a 2to 3 foot higher mast!) Hobie 16 jib was kind of like a gennecker also because Dart 18 mast does not rotate on a plastic/Teflon ball like my Nacra 5.2,5.5,5.7 the aluminum on aluminum Dart18 mast set-up actually can wear out!!!i have had to replace 1 Dart 18 mast because of this I believe larger sails could contr]ibute to greater wear & tear on mast base! The Hobie 16 jib(I pinpriked tiny holes in H16 jib and fit thin cord so jib would run up Dart 18 forestay)was like a gennecker/spinicker andrunning with the wind on low wind days was enjoyable, and negated the frustration of being wiped out by my friends Hobie 16s Nacra570. ( worst of all monohulls)& etc on low wind days

Headed back to Fort Lauderdale 2/12 but don't have my spare jibs there to re-experiment with all my sails to determine if on light wind days a different sail configuration on my Dart 18 would speed things up. However these are the combos I've tried on low wind days on my dart 18 I keep on Fire Island NY: A Prindle 16 jib worked out best because much smaller and tmanageable than the Hobie 16 jib- also experimented with my. Nacra 5.2&5.5&5.7 jibs but way too unwieldy even when reefed. I also tried Hobi 16, Prindle 16 Mains & my Nacra 5.2,5.5&5.7 mains-all were way too large even when carefully reefed.( my friend Malcolm Stitt Tornado sailer has successfully cut down larger sails for his ice boats but I don't have the courage.)At one point had Dart 18 and Nacra 5.7 for 3 seasons and yes that was best solution. Also Great South Bay what I now sail on off fire island( use to sail on the Atlantic) almost ALWAYS has wind over 12k , so when u rig a larger jib and wind builds you have negative results and on Dart 18 jib and main difficult if not impossible to lower because "hooked" in when underway- ( Nacra 5.7,5.5&5.2 mains require a 2to 3 foot higher mast!) Hobie 16 jib was kind of like a gennecker also because Dart 18 mast does not rotate on a plastic/Teflon ball like my Nacra 5.2,5.5,5.7 the aluminum on aluminum Dart18 mast set-up actually can wear out!!!i have had to replace 1 Dart 18 mast because of this I believe larger sails could contr]ibute to greater wear & tear on mast base! The Hobie 16 jib(I pinpriked tiny holes in H16 jib and fit thin cord so jib would run up Dart 18 forestay)was like a gennecker/spinicker andrunning with the wind on low wind days was enjoyable, and negated the frustration of being wiped out by my friends Hobie 16s Nacra570. ( worst of all monohulls)& etc on low wind days

Quote

the aluminum on aluminum Dart18 mast set-up actually can wear out!!!

The mast base on the dart is stainless on stainless and quite durable. Windsport has all the parts for dart boats.

--
Dart 20
--

first i apologize my comment printed out 3 times. comment of durability of bottom of Dart 18 mast is not accurate,
I presently own 2 Dart 18s and sail both,had 3 but lost one to a Florida hurricane(that came north and took my Nacra 5.7) 2 years back. The mast i utilize now on Dart 18 in Fort Lauderdale was fortuneately fished out of the water after the storm. I had to exchange Dart !8 mast for my Fire Island Dart 18 because the Mast base wore out! & the bottom of the mast(there is a small stainless plate)yes the rest of that mast is in excellant shape. Have you ever replaced a mast base & bottom of mast? very big hastle-i had to on a Hobie 16 i flipped surfing cat in the Atlantic-bought new extrusions and used old base & top ,& replaced mast base, but hobie dealers nere by and reasonable. Windsport very pricey and it can take 3 weeks to get a part. I actually replaced mast base and will try to send photos tomorrow- had to, took my wife sailing , mast seemed insecure and in cross currents when becalmed came down!! Thats why larger jib good idea. I really only wanted to add there are Dart 18 spinnakers but they are not class legal(race any Dart 18s in U S waters lately?)

Hi I got a Dart 18 in the uk and the I just want to say was just make sure you get as much weight to the front of the boat I have both the crew and helm sitting on the front beam . I know I am probably telling you to suck eggs but I found out the hard way how much different that made. I manages to get a 20 foot tall channel marker between the 2 hulls getting pushed on to it by the current and what wind there was need a pull from a passing motor boat to remove myself from it. It gave the crowd outside the club something to watch. Just be carful with putting extra sails on the Dart in Europe there is a company that makes a fat top main ( https://forward-sailing.co.uk/en/97-mainsail-dart-18-dacron.htm)l but I have heard top Dart sailors saying a mast wont last long using one I am guessing you would need more than 9 knot to do any damage. There was spinnaker kit made for the Dart 18 in the 90's but it was never allowed for racing so never took off. They do come up on ebay every so often.

I wish I'd seen the advice on cutting down sails a year ago. I've outfitted my Dart 18 for the Everglades Challenge this March. The rules require a reefing system for the main, so instead of putting money into the old sails, I had a custom set made with 2 sets of reefs and a square top. We also made a modest increase in the jib's size.

The square top is nice, I would do the same again, but it isn't a massive change.

The reefing points are awesome for singlehanding in stronger winds. If I always sailed with crew, the value wouldn't be as great, but for solo ocean racing, it's necessary. I did find that with the mainsail's roach, the sheeting angle from the mainsheet moves in when reefing, which is opposite to what would be ideal. In hindsight, I would have the reefing clew ring installed slightly below a batten and moved in away from the luff by a few inches.

I don't have a spinnaker for the boat, and that will hurt my competitiveness. I'm figuring on keeping it simple for a first time around. Money is also a factor. I do have an old 505 symmetrical spinnaker I'm considering flying from the bridle chain plates as a strictly downwind sail in light wind, but I'm probably just as well off tacking downwind with the working sails. I don't want to waste money that can go towards an asymmetrical rig.

As mentioned earlier, weight forward is the way to speed it up in light wind. I like to see both transoms clear of the water and usually one rudder up.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/EnoLjXQgvivSbLy88

duplicate post deleted by jeff96



Edited by jeff96 on Jan 31, 2020 - 12:19 PM.

Quote

I did find that with the mainsail's roach, the sheeting angle from the mainsheet moves in when reefing, which is opposite to what would be ideal. In hindsight, I would have the reefing clew ring installed slightly below a batten and moved in away from the luff by a few inches.

Forgive me if i am confused but wouldn't moving the clew in while reefing produce a flatter sail? wouldn't that be a plus in heavy air? - sidenote: couldn't you just add a new clew in your preferred location? since the clew should be reinforced: it shouldn't hurt the sail

Where did you get your sail made?

Looking forward to seeing your cat on rigging day at Ft Desoto

What I meant, not what I said. The reefing clew out on the roach moves the sheeting angle more downward and less outward making the sail slightly fuller. A new clew ring further in would potentially fix the problem, but I'm going to sail it as is; it's a minor detail.

Sail by Triton Sails in Mississauga, Ontario. Great guy to work with.



Edited by jeff96 on Jan 31, 2020 - 01:56 PM.

"The cats out of the. Bag" (pun attempted), I presumed noone took notice that in speeds up to 12ks I lifted a rudder out of the water to gain an advantage and always in low wind conditions. dart 18s use spanners ( lines that attach from aft clew/grommet on main(boom less)next to where blocks attach spanning below main to bottom of mast where down haul and wishbone are located. I attach small blocks at either end to tighten spanner to achieve best pocket in main for sailing conditions. Tried to use spannerson Nacra.5.2,5.5,5.7 &570 but no advantage seemed to be gained. Brexit Brits know much more about Darts since they race and Darts are very popular in Northern Europe where small cat sailing thrives

another note- caution on overstressing the hardware on Dart 18s with larger sails in high wind conditions. Yes i have oversized side and forestays/shrouds(murreys said the ones they fashioned fpr me are suitable for a Stiletto size cat, and i always carry in rear hatch approximately 100 feet of amsteel rope which you can cut to size to replace a stay and actually is stronger - Ive sailed for weeks on amsteel forestay until i replaced stay- All Americas Cup craft only use it not stainless) but i had to replace chainplates/shroudplates/bowplates on one of my Dart 18s at the bow foreward! They are ugly, my friend Joe Pogostin made them up and they are 3 times as thick as the stock plates(its tricky to install you may lose inside of the hull fastener/ nut when removing discarded chain plate! remember metric hardware) ps mast base is referred to as mast foot by Brits wishbone is referred to as a spanner. Also i spray abundadant silicon on mast base and bottom of mast before raising mast, hobie and prindle sailors use silicon wafers but even when "molded" to fit these dont work with Dart 18 mast

I'm not sure what rigging size a Stiletto uses. Hobie 20 and 21 uses a 5/32" shroud; same as the Dart. It looks like there is already redundancy built in with the shroud diameter.
A larger sail will only increase loading on the rig if you can keep the boat upright in heavy winds. So unless you're doing twin trapeze with heavy crew on wings along with that extra sail area, I don't see the point in having rigging sized for a boat that's almost 3 times the weight.



Edited by jeff96 on Feb 02, 2020 - 03:49 PM.

Rigging oversized to cope with larger issue posted on Beachcats before maybe under mushroom anchors- we moor our cats on great south Bay in Fire Island National Seashore waters and are only permitted to use the beach we use to leave cats on 'back in the day' all year round, to put up & down sails and to let off or on "passengers/crew. Initionally the Park Rangers,who openly carry 357 magnums-we are in bathing or wet suits- punished us for leaving cats on public beach hardly used by anyone except other boater by literally cutting up one Nacra and cutting up masts taken off cats and left over bay dune, that partially washed away,to ride out hurricane Jose! Since then they have mellowed quite a bit and looked the other way for up to 2 weeks or more when i had to make repairs to my Dart and my Nacra 5.5SL (which I gave away in Sept) after monster freak summer storms , perhaps a tornado winds clocked at 79 mph(a close friend competitor swimmer drown!) pulled several cats and Flying Scotts from our moorings! After I oversized rigging my masts stopped coming down. I oversized on my Florida Dart as well since Lake Emerald rose 2 feet and beach there now under 18 inches of spring fed pure emerald blue water and now cat cant be left on beach there either. Global Warming?

IMHO:
upsizing your sails to deal with summertime doldrums may not be the best option.
in our area (same area the poster sails in): on typical summer days there is a light easterly breeze in the am which is met and overtaken by the sea-breeze around 1pm. Sailing in that transition time can be very painful as it is light wind and shifty.

If you wait till the sea-breeze you don't need oversized sails. and if you sail into the afternoon you may be sailing in 15 knots and you certainly don't need oversized sails

I think if you improve your weather-man skills you would be better served.

If you keep a close eye on the overall weather you will know when we are under a strong High pressure and that is when we will have almost no wind. If we aren't directly under a H, and it's not overcast ... there is a good chance for a seabreeze. esp in apr/may early june before the water catches up with the mid day air temps

I can only speak to a few days sailing in the Saint Petersburg area last November. There were a couple of days where we would have put up all the sail that we could and more. We also had a few days with a good sea breeze. My son is 180 lbs and was on the trapeze a bit but not really hanging out. With the two of us, we didn't use the reefing points, but I would have put in a reef if I was sailing solo. I think the OP was suggesting having a dedicated light air sail as well as his regular stock sail. Makes sense to me. The dart was built for heavy winds; in my opinion 15 knots is just starting to wake the beast. I do like to push the boat hard; it's going to depend on the sailor's preferences and experience.

yes having different sails for different weather is a great thing (i own 8 differently sized sails for my mystere's).
i have found this very beneficial to depower in higher wind days. But unless i am trying to "beat" my buddies to the next island, oversized sails aren't that powerful of a sailing aid

but what i am talking about is: we have (very) variable winds here in the summer

light to non existent in the am - building to "more than enough" in the afternoon on a typical summer day

having extra sq of sailarea will make you a little faster than without - but it doesn't make your boat easier to handle, or require less technique in light air


2 - 4 knots of air - it's all technique at those speeds -
no extra sail area is "needed" in 10-15 unless you want to push the limits of your sailing skills and rigging


I think most of the OP's issues can be overcome by timing his sailing to days that aren't controlled by high pressure overhead and sailing around the known wind habits

Quote

the Everglades Challenge this March. The rules require a reefing system for the main,

Curious about your system
how do you secure your main halyard after it is lowered?

I removed the halyard hook, put a block on the sail to give 2:1 purchase (to reduce mast compression and bend). The Spectra halyard is just cleated off near the base of the mast

jeff96

I removed the halyard hook, put a block on the sail to give 2:1 purchase (to reduce mast compression and bend). The Spectra halyard is just cleated off near the base of the mast

gotcha - but at full hoist (assuming the 2:1 is at the head of the sail) the 2:1 doesnt spread any load ?

Half the load is carried by the short length between the dead end and the sail head block. The other half is carried by the halyard running down the mast

jeff96

Half the load is carried by the short length between the dead end and the sail head block. The other half is carried by the halyard running down the mast

I believe it is 1/3, 1/3 and 1/3
2/3 are spread out or applied to the "above the head" area




but i think the take away is at full hoist the mast compression would be only t (1/3rd the mast compression vs double without the system, or 50% with the hook) Edit: this is wrong and confusing:jeff96's compression is 1.5 t .



Edited by MN3 on Feb 04, 2020 - 06:25 PM.

This issue was partially addressed before on this site. My friend Joe does not "hook in" his Nacra 570 to top of mast but ties halyard down to bottom of mast where there are several jam cleats- I proposed doing the same with Dart 18 mast &/ or attaching main & jib halyards to 2 large chrome cleats i affixed to nere bottom of mast (approx 8 inches from bottom); because both main halyard and jib halyard are "hooked" and you cant release them when underway and if hit by a sudden squall or less u r SCR WED! Experts opined that either deviation puts too much stress on the mast! Solution and comments invited.

Quote

attaching main & jib halyards to 2 large chrome cleats i affixed to nere bottom of mast ... puts too much stress on the mast!

how much is too much is the real issue:

it is well documented and agreed that (see chart above)

• hooking the head of the sail at the top of the mast = t (or standard/stock compression - see above)
  
  
• securing a halyard around a turning block and back down the mast doubles the compression on the mast (2t)
  
  
• using a 2:1 in your system =1.5t or 150% of the hooked head

so sailing around cleated on the bottom of the mast is double the compression on your mast. put that in med/heavy air with 2 or 400 lbs on the wire and you are pushing your mast hard (again how much is too much is the real question)

using a 2:1 add's some compression (50%). spread out in 3rds. If you have reduced sail area /lowered the sail down, (thus reducing the forces on the sail) the 50% increase in compression shouldn't be that severe since the forces on the sail have been reduced

Edit: I think jeff96's solution has increased compression and not reduced forces when sailing fully hoisted but not certain of the actual physics since a maj of the load is slammed to the top of the system.

Quote

because both main halyard and jib halyard are "hooked" and you cant release them when underway and if hit by a sudden squall or less u r SCR WED!

"reefing" isn't for sudden "anything"
reefing is to make sailing in heavier air manageable and much less prone to pressure related incidents

to reef: your clew, tack and head have been reset to a lower location - this requires some rigging adjustments to reset all 3 spots on your sail - your mainsheet and downhaul attachment points and halyard

and if you can't get your sail off the hook while wet / you need a more reliable solution

on my 6.0 i have a reefable main
if i am out and overpowered and need to reef i will either duck behind an island or find a lee off somewhere if possible - or i will anchor up
then i will take my main off the hook just like i was at the beach (it may take an extra attempt or 2 because the boat may be dancing on anchor but my 6.0 is pretty well tuned for this)
there is an inline spinlock to secure the halyard after it is off the hook and lowered to accommodate the lower position



Edited by MN3 on Feb 04, 2020 - 06:43 PM.

[quote=MN3]

Quote

Edit: I think jeff96's solution has increased compression and not reduced forces when sailing fully hoisted but not certain of the actual physics since a maj of the load is slammed to the top of the system.

I'm not sure what system you think I have. I use the 2:1 that you have sketched a few posts above. The compression force isn't going to jump higher if the hoist is fully up or down to a reef. The physics remain the same.

On the watertribe site, I brought this subject up. Here's what one of the members had to say about it:

My Cross 18 tri uses an old Hobie 16 mast, a Prindle 16 square top main, a large jib and small asym spinnaker. All on a fractional rig with line halyards for everything to jam cleats screwed to the mast base. Had her out in 35 knot winds several times, Reefed down tight of course, I have three slab reefs in main and a roller furling jib. Seems to be no trouble. I find compression bend is not an issue on older heavy duty beach cat masts. At least I haven’t found it troubling. Here she is on second reef main with all sail flying in 25 knot wind. https://youtu.be/u-0dRWxe5lU

Your results may vary.

Quote

I'm not sure what system you think I have. I use the 2:1 that you have sketched a few posts above. The compression force isn't going to jump higher if the hoist is fully up or down to a reef. The physics remain the same.

my questions are about where the actual loads are spread out when your sail is
a. off the hook but fully hoisted like your set up and
b. where the loads are when the main is reefed and the 2:1 has a few feet of line in it

sorry for any confusion: math makes my head hurt

dartsailors

As everyone here knows, the Dart is great to sail in greater than 8 knots of wind, but is absolutely painful under that. Here in Florida, most of the summer is below 8 knots. I'm thinking of purchasing a sail from a different boat to use strictly as a low wind sail. I appreciate that changing the sail also changes how the boat sails, which is why I'm reaching out.

Does anyone have thoughts on a boomless sail that would work and wouldn't change the sailing dynamics too much?

In the discussion of Steve's Dart 20 Stampede, he used a modified Mystere sail.

TIA,
Dana

That light mast extrusion without diamond wires is a limiting factor. Coupled with the boat was never designed for more sail area, changes the sailing characteristics dramatically when you start messing with it. We experimented in the early 90's with more area via increased roach with pin top sails (squares weren't in favor yet). It resulted in snapping 2 masts and rudder cavitation in heavy air.

The Stampede 20 is really a different boat if you're looking to compare and yes, I've sailed several that were modified and the performance was negligible.

Here's my advice from a guy who's owned and sailed quite a few Darts (and absolutely loves the boat): Keep weight positioned correctly (forward) and have the boat tuned properly for light air - from standing rigging, battens, downhaul, keep the tramp tight, etc. If still lacking in desired speed and upwind ability, consider another boat. Above all, call me should you decide to sell that one - I've always lusted after the Tahitian color combo and it's like unicorns pissing rainbows of sailing bliss in anything over 15kts.

-Jon

Agreed that a different boat would go faster in light winds. I like my Dart though, even though winds in Ontario can be light and flukey, unless they're strong and flukey. @Headhunter I find it surprising you were able to break a mast.
When we decided on the new dimensions for a square top, we superimposed our proposed sail plan over the old sail. Even with a 2' wide square top, there really isn't a lot more sail area. I haven't had the new sails all that long, but with a combined crew weight of 380 lbs, we drove our Dart straight through several waves. In heavy winds the crew has to move to the transom to keep the rudder in the water, but that was the case with the old sail too. Helm balance seems to be about the same as before albeit with a slightly oversized jib

https://www.catsailingnew…de-zero-by-1d-sails.html

Here's a novel idea....Add a gigantic screecher! Or Code 0 if you prefer.



Edited by flightlead on Feb 06, 2020 - 04:45 AM.

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Flightlead Bimare F18 HT SpaceCoast
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and it's like unicorns pissing rainbows of sailing bliss in anything over 15kts.

i don't recall rainbows nor bliss the last time i hung off your dart and it definitely was over 15nuts .

read the details here - https://www.thebeachcats.…nc=viewtopic&topic=11037



Edited by MN3 on Feb 06, 2020 - 10:38 AM.

MN3

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and it's like unicorns pissing rainbows of sailing bliss in anything over 15kts.

i don't recall rainbows nor bliss the last time i hung off your dart and it definitely was over 15nuts .

read the details here - https://www.thebeachcats.…nc=viewtopic&topic=11037Edited by MN3 on Feb 06, 2020 - 10:38 AM.

That...was an amazing day, and evidently I used to swear a lot.

First of all, thank you all for the input. Work has been a bear the last couple of weeks, so while I've been reading the replies, I haven't been able to respond. I'll try to hit the high points of questions and comments, so if I omit you, I apologize.

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onekiwi recommends adding a foil

I have to admit my ignorance. I understand foiling catamarans, but I suspect that's not what you're talking about. Can you educate me?

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finnboy and nofearofflying express concern about a larger sail prematurely wearing out other boat components

This is exactly why I posted the question. I'm gathering that a larger sail is simply not a practical solution for a variety of reasons. Like Nofear, I also have oversized shrouds on our boat, thanks to the prior owner. It's a practice I will likely continue on any future boat.

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texastuma and MN3 note that sub 5 knot winds require skilled technique

I certainly accept this. The long pole in that tent is how to get that skill. I've been toying with starting a thread on that subject, but it may be divisive, so I haven't yet. I'll say this: There are little to zero places for adults looking to enter to sport to learn how to sail and how to sail a catamaran specifically. If you want to learn to sail a monohull as a adult, there is limited ability to do that. If you want to learn how to sail a catamaran, you have zero options, IMHO. That's one of the reasons why our sport is dying, if not already dead.

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Headhunter and some others recommended moving weight forward. Headhunter also recommended tuning.

This is very helpful. While I already feel very far forward compared to sailing a Hobie 16 many years ago, I'm usually at the shroud and one of my daughters just behind the front beam. I'm thinking I may need to put her on the beam with me right next to her. Doing so will require practicing transitions, but may provide some benefit.

On tuning, I'm sure our boat could use that and there are lots of folks on the beach willing to offer opinions. However, those opinions are of limited utility when you don't know the individual's experience level or if you don't know if they have experience with your model boat.

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martin-langhoff recommends a spinnaker and flightlead recommends a screecher

First, are they one and the same? In the link flightlead provided, it appears that a screecher is a GIANT jib.

I like the idea of a spinnaker, but I don't know how to sail with one. My eldest daughter does have some experience though. Several cats on our beach have spinnaker setups, so I may explore that option further.

Once again, thank you for the suggestions and please keep them coming. I'm particularly interested in any tuning suggestions. For example, I don't ever adjust my batten tension, simply because I don't know what adjustment to make depending on what conditions.

I'm also fairly certain that my sail is worn out. While a new one may be in the cards in the future, I'm working on picking up another one to try to improve that situation in the short term.

Dana

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Dana, Holly, Emma & Hannah

LJ/Stu's Dart 18 (Sold! :( )
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This is a little off topic but related so please bear with me.

I'm racing my Dart 18 solo at the Everglades Challenge this spring. Historically, there have been long downwind runs which I consider a weak point for my boat without downwind sails. I had decided to just suck it up until I saw a new asymmetrical spinnaker on a buy and sell site cheap. The ad doesn't specify what boat it's made for other than to say it's for 14' to 16' dinghys. The ad did specify dimensions and I've superimposed this over an approximate scale drawing of the boat.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EKDQ0Plpb11xfLUl_FSPnNG3xBOXuNKH/view?usp=sharing

I am aware that an F18 style spinnaker is a great way to dismast the boat. This is a much smaller kite intended only for light winds that would use the jib halyard. The jib is on a furler and doesn't use the halyard. My thought is instead of a bowsprit, running a spectra bridle off the bows. I would have make a tube snuffer either slung between the forestay and forward beam, or use a turtle bag on the tramp.

The main problem I see is that I'll need to assemble the 'spinnaker kit' here in Ontario, then rig it in Florida two days before the race. A turtle bag might be easier to sort out at this stage. Also, I don't care about class legal, that went out the window a long time ago.

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I have to admit my ignorance. I understand foiling catamarans, but I suspect that's not what you're talking about. Can you educate me?

Bow foil (bar that is attached to each bow). this fights the inward pull your bridal puts on the bows. increasing sail area increases the forces on your rigging. your fiberglass bows are much easier to destroy than the steel cable so adding a bow foil basically eliminates this issue (think front beam on a gcat)

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There are little to zero places for adults looking to enter to sport to learn how to sail and how to sail a catamaran specifically.

Robbie D. - private coaching is where. but TOW is just as important. (time on water)
when i started i took a lesson from "a guy in a van down by the river water". it was not very valuable

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First, are they one and the same? In the link flightlead provided, it appears that a screecher is a GIANT jib.

a screecher is a term for a spinnaker style fore-sail (the tack is on a pole infront of your bows). a spinnaker is typically a down wind (only) sail, a screecher has a different shape and can usually sail much higher (not just down wind) - but it really can't sail close hauled so it has limits (reaching). They can usually (if not always) furl too so you can keep it on your front deck (if you have one) and hoist it when your gonna use it. then unfurl it and sail away. You don't have to lower it when not in use but it does add a bunch of windage so racers often would prefer to drop it

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I'm also fairly certain that my sail is worn out. While a new one may be in the cards in the future, I'm working on picking up another one to try to improve that situation in the short term.

I am fairly certain too.
I would suggest you talk with Chip from Whirlwind before you purchase anything used. my jib was $500 new so your will be significantly less i would think (much smaller, no zipper) - also your main may not be too much to replace -
new sails will definatly help you sail a little better and slightly faster (until worn/blownout) - i used to say it's like adding a turbo... (but you still gotta sail correct)



Edited by MN3 on Feb 07, 2020 - 12:19 PM.

Don't mean to be a nay sayer but i can only assume you are posting this to hear other people's input:

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This is a much smaller kite intended only for light winds that would use the jib halyard. ... The jib is on a furler and doesn't use the halyard.

1. how do you raise your jib without a halyard? Is it simply stored on your forestay and ready for use once the mast is stepped and the forestay is attached to the furler?

2. if a spin and jib share the same space i would guess you are gonna have a spin wrapped around your forestay/furled jib... a lot as the tack of the spin/luff are several feet away typically. so only the leach and lines need to cross over the jib/forestay
EDIT - actually i think if the spin luff and furled jib are in the same location you are not going to be able to get the spin to the correct side in a gybe. there needs to be a space for the sail to "cross over"

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My thought is instead of a bowsprit, running a spectra bridle off the bows.

I can't see this working. not only does the sprit move the tack away from the forestay it also secures it in place.
without a sprit what will stop the tack from moving fore and aft with apparent wind?

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I would have make a tube snuffer either slung between the forestay and forward beam, or use a turtle bag on the tramp.

tramp bags work but are a pita. if you have crew ... they can manage it but doing it solo is not fun
also there isn't a lot of room on a dart. adding all the lines, blocks, and a tramp bag is gonna suck

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The main problem I see is that I'll need to assemble the 'spinnaker kit' here in Ontario, then rig it in Florida two days before the race.

I can only assume you can't "test" this system out in canada during winter... i would really hope you could test the snot out of adding a new major system prior to the race



Edited by MN3 on Feb 07, 2020 - 12:46 PM.

jeff96

This is a little off topic but related so please bear with me.

I'm racing my Dart 18 solo at the Everglades Challenge this spring. Historically, there have been long downwind runs which I consider a weak point for my boat without downwind sails. I had decided to just suck it up until I saw a new asymmetrical spinnaker on a buy and sell site cheap. The ad doesn't specify what boat it's made for other than to say it's for 14' to 16' dinghys. The ad did specify dimensions and I've superimposed this over an approximate scale drawing of the boat.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EKDQ0Plpb11xfLUl_FSPnNG3xBOXuNKH/view?usp=sharing

I am aware that an F18 style spinnaker is a great way to dismast the boat. This is a much smaller kite intended only for light winds that would use the jib halyard. The jib is on a furler and doesn't use the halyard. My thought is instead of a bowsprit, running a spectra bridle off the bows. I would have make a tube snuffer either slung between the forestay and forward beam, or use a turtle bag on the tramp.

The main problem I see is that I'll need to assemble the 'spinnaker kit' here in Ontario, then rig it in Florida two days before the race. A turtle bag might be easier to sort out at this stage. Also, I don't care about class legal, that went out the window a long time ago.

Spectra bridle off the bows won't work and you'll need to add a forward beam at the bridle tangs because the dart doesn't have bulkheads past the forward beam...there are just two - one at the forward beam mentioned and one at the rear beam. The rest of the hull shape is dictated by the EPS foam they glue into place, running the length of the boat. All that added stuff just ads weight and the opportunity to foul.

Wanna go downwind? Get your weight forward and sit by the mast on the leward side then hope for the best. It'll be a dog unless it's howling out regardless.

dear MN3 and others- How do we get it off the hook if there are no nearby islands and a sudden squall hits us from out of nowhere ? If halyards on cleats you can drop both sails ans survive or intentionally turn cat over But you cant hold on to a "painter"(line) connected to cat because a lightening strike that hits cat or close by will fry you!(this genius already did that and fortunately lightening strike all around did not hit craft) the line will conduct electricity to cat

Yes, I'm looking for the problems and trying to solve for them before it's a tangled mess at the start line.

1. This is actually the easiest one. The jib is on a wire roller furler. It goes up when the mast goes up. There is a UV protective strip on the leach to protect from sun damage.

2. Yes, they are close but not parallel. They will run closest near the head but there's a ~2' gap between the tacks. Hoisting on a broad reach should keep the two from meeting. Gybing would involve bearing off, hauling on the windward sheet to bring the clew into the gap, gybe, and haul to pull the sail through. All kinds of ways that can go wrong in strong winds, in which case the sail shouldn't be up anyway. It should be manageable in ghosting conditions though.
Plan B. Make the bridle adjustable with the ability to bring the tack to the leeward bow for hoisting and dousing. That would keep it well away from the forestay.

3. If the tack moves forward with the drive of the sail: good! It can't go far and it opens that gap between sails. The only way I see the tack moving aft is from too much sheet tension or trying to point upwind with the sail. That's easily corrected.

4. True. I have a friend with a spinnaker boat that I'm going to consult. The only reason I'm considering the turtle bag is that I feel that a snuffer tube will have to be carefully sized and positioned to work, while the turtle bag can be clipped on in different places. Again, this is for winds where I'd be considering fishing or paddling.

5. Testing. I will be camping at Fort Desoto 3 days before the race. Not great. Unacceptable in moderate to strong wind testing, but if I'm trying to drift along with a shore breeze, testing on the fly can't hurt.
@headhunter yup, it's going to be a dog in light downwind runs. 79 square feet is better than a 34 square foot jib though. I think I can work out the mechanical part of it.

You'll need a forward beam and a spin pole, otherwise that dog just ain't gonna hunt.

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dear MN3 and others- How do we get it off the hook if there are no nearby islands and a sudden squall hits us from out of nowhere ? If halyards on cleats you can drop both sails ans survive

drop your anchor is how

but also: squalls don't "pop up" out of the blue. they almost always come with weather reports, or conditions are favorable for strong thunderstorms. they don't happen on clear days with High pressure all around. so know your weather risks prior to saiiing. be prepared for weather - look to the skys, watch your radar app, and stay home on days that look out of your comfort zone

Beach cats are overpowered and under-built compared to monohulls that can get away with all sorts of behavior that would crush our beachcat. as mentioned above, cleating halyards at the base double's the compression. your mast isn't built for that load so you are risking hardware. if you prefer to accept that risk ... so be it.

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2. Yes, they are close but not parallel. They will run closest near the head but there's a ~2' gap between the tacks. Hoisting on a broad reach should keep the two from meeting. Gybing would involve bearing off, hauling on the windward sheet to bring the clew into the gap, gybe, and haul to pull the sail through. All kinds of ways that can go wrong in strong winds, in which case the sail shouldn't be up anyway. It should be manageable in ghosting conditions though.
Plan B. Make the bridle adjustable with the ability to bring the tack to the leew

If your thoughts are using this in "fishing weather"... i think you will be more frustrated with snagged sails, and tangles than you will be moving... but i hope i am wrong. I know for me: using a spin in uber light air isn't worth the wear on the sail and the frustration

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3. If the tack moves forward with the drive of the sail: good! It can't go far and it opens that gap between sails. The only way I see the tack moving aft is from too much sheet tension or trying to point upwind with the sail. That's easily corrected.

it's not the fore movement that is the issue . its the aft: the sail will be pushed back with your apparent wind,

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The only reason I'm considering the turtle bag is that I feel that a snuffer tube will have to be carefully sized and positioned to work, while the turtle bag can be clipped on in different places. Again, this is for winds where I'd be considering fishing or paddling.

damn skippy your gonna need the correct size and position for a snuffer to work. and the right cut of sail, and the right placement and number of dousing line attachments (rings). snuffers are very fickle beasts. 1 way the work reliably : dozens of ways they dont.
as per the bag: sure it can work. but i think you need to put spin sheets, halyard and retrieval lines on your boat with the spin bag. dry rig all this in your yard and see if you think there is gonna be room for this with all your other required/desired gear.

MN3

but also: squalls don't "pop up" out of the blue. they almost always come with weather reports, or conditions are favorable for strong thunderstorms. they don't happen on clear days with High pressure all around. so know your weather risks prior to saiiing. be prepared for weather - look to the skys, watch your radar app, and stay home on days that look out of your comfort zone

Story time: One day I was out with my then 13 year old daughter and one of her friends. It was a good 8 knot day, so fun was had. I'm a mile or so out from our launch beach and I see a storm to our south. I tell the girls that I'm going to turn around, get to the beach and we can drop the mast. I'm not too concerned because these storms often move up the coast and inland, so I thought we'd watch it rain on our house from the water.

I get about halfway back to the beach and the storm is nearly on top of us. I tell the girls that we're not going to make it and that I'm headed to a small island where we'll wait out the storm. I spin the boat around and head towards the island, into the storm. I depower the sail as much as I can (probably incorrectly) and we are still screaming towards the island. I've got both hulls largely in the water but the wind is gusting, so I don't trust that we'll stay there. I'm scared to death that we'll have a big gust, capsize and I'll have two kids in the water in a storm. Of course, I don't say anything to them other than hang on and hike out.

We get to the island and even with turning the boat into the wind, we come up onto the beach hard. (That probably accounts for the bottom repair I had to do later, but that was the least of my concerns.) I get the boat on land, quickly drop the main and move all of us under some trees. I can finally breathe.

The kids turn to me and say, "That was GREAT! Can we do that again!"

No, not unless you want me to have a heart attack.

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Dana, Holly, Emma & Hannah

LJ/Stu's Dart 18 (Sold! :( )
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and I see a storm to our south. I tell the girls that I'm going to turn around, get to the beach and we can drop the mast.

See, plenty of time to drop your sail and offer a human child sacrifice (or 2) to the weather gods

PS most of the local sailors have lived through a similar situation or 2.
I misjudged a storms speed and ended up hitting island 4 at speed. I was planing on turning into the wind at the last second but hit lots of seagrass and both rudders kicked up. i looked at my (large) crew and yelled "HOLD ON, WE ARE GONNA HIT IT".... I then jumped off the boat and watched it do a "DUKES of HAZARD" and completely airborn go about 10' into the island.

So, I just got back from the Everglades challenge, and I wanted to share the results of my experiments.

Square top main. Yes. Though I got more advantage out of the two sets of reefing points and jib furler than additional sail area. It's difficult to quantify the light air advantage of this sail in these varied conditions, but I feel it had a small effect. Not enough to ditch a good condition pin top sail and lay down cash, but if you need a new sail anyway, I would recommend it.

Slightly oversized jib. Yes. I feel like the jib made a difference on all points of sail and I can't think of a down side to it. Unfortunately, I can't reef the sail, and it creates terrible lee helm when the mainsail is double reefed. Still, that was the best combination when I had to drive the boat into a strong headwind with waves.

79 sq ft asymmetrical. Yes* I can see why the Dart class association wouldn't go with this, but for my purposes it was a good thing. Running it out of a turtle bag on the port shroud was a real pain in the neck. This made me nervous about flying it in anything but ideal conditions as I was concerned about getting it down and back into the bag myself.
It really shined in low winds where I was pointing too low to keep the jib pulling and tacking downwind was either impossible or would have added more miles than the increased speed could make up for. My very unscientific observations showed a speed of 3 to 3.5 knots under white sails increased to 5 to 6 knots with the spinnaker. I feel that with a proper tube snuffer bag and practice, this is going to be a really fun sail to have.
I wound up making a light weight sprit using aluminum boat canvas tubing. I suspect that this is way too light for the job, but I'll do some destructive testing this summer before I commit to the further cost, weight and windage of a heavier spar.

Just received report on actual sail use "Everglades Challenge" Very important info~please post photos of sails used if possible ,and which oversized jib u selected

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1caUM070TMZIeKINlT70-OTUr4HsF4Hw7?usp=sharing

The salt and sand had taken a toll on the autofocus, so I don't have great pictures. I'll also add dimensions from the sailmaker.

Someone earlier posted a jib from a different boat that works well. In my case, since I was getting a new sail, we just made some modest increases to all dimensions