Hobie 21se - we sail it as intended, so not gentle, but not abused either. Point is, we put the designed forces on the boat, sail and rig.

I've never much liked how the jib cars are only adjustable fore and aft, and going upwind, I believe I'm loosing a bit of ability to point because I can't close the slot enough. Soooo..., since I'm about to start making a new trampoline, I was going to sew some heavy reinforcements in it to accommodate a few extra grommets on each side, allowing me to run a few loops of line to be able to mount the blocks ala F18 style. same average position fore and aft, but with 3 loops, giving me some adjust-ability with closing the slot more. I guess I'd have to find an average fore-aft position with the loop length to adjust leech/foot tension, though not adjustable while sailing...

Can a trampoline hold the loads without ripping out? Seems like it'd be a lot on this boat.
Is this just trading one problem for another? I suppose I could add a clew board to the jib if need-be...

--
Chuck C
NACRA 500 Mk2
--

It’s been done. You’re fine. H20 style you could run a cable between the jib cars and let the block pull on that and just have a line to resist the car moving out

The Hobie 18 sailors in Australia are doing something similar to what you describe.

http://m.facebook.com/Hob…631736/?type=3&source=54

I suspect that the trampoline needs to be well reinforced to take the loads and so that the jib tension isn’t “springy.” The 21 would need be even more heavily reinforced.

Another option could be to run a stainless cable or Dynema cord between the jib cars, across the top of the tramp to act as a “traveler” system. This would be similar to the H20 jib system. It is a little intrusive on the trampoline area though.

sm



Edited by Dogboy on Apr 13, 2022 - 05:17 PM.

You can certainly reinforce the area of the tramp around the jib blocks to take the load. The problem is the tramp is flexible and no matter how tight you can get it; it will lift up some during a puff and come back down when it slacks a little. You will have to constantly be sheeting in and out to sail efficiently. Does the 21 have rails? If it does, you can have a cable or line running underneath the tramp, secured to each hull with a backup bar. Make it super tight because this will be taking the load. On your tramp, directly over this wire or line, have big stainless grommets installed with reinforcing material. Attach your jib blocks through the grommet with a long d-shackle. You'll probably want to be inboard at least a foot from your current ideal fore and aft position of your jib blocks. This set up works best with a barberhauler because you will want to move the jib sheets outboard from time to time when you're off the wind. We'll get into that later because this is all moot if you don't have a way secure that line under the tramp that will take the load.

What Dogboy suggested could be a good option. Take it a step further, and in about the middle 3 feet of that line or wire have a piece of line with a 2 or 3 purchase using a fiddle block. You can open and close the slot. Once again, you'll have to really secure a pad-eye mounted where your jib blocks would normally be fore and aft.

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
--

it's got rails, exactly like a H18. I haven't looked at a H20 system yet, only what the Ausies are doing, the Prindle system and Supercat 20 system. Setting up the loops and reinforcement on the trampoline would be about the easiest for me, but the least secure feeling. Yeah, the cables on top of the tramp is a lot of extra hardware... Thinking about it. Doing a cable system below, for a place to attach is novel, but I can't think of how to attach since the jib track is above. Wondering if something like just installing inhauls with rings might get me close to the same place with less stuff on top???

--
Chuck C
NACRA 500 Mk2
--

Some kind of inhaul/reverse barberhaul system will clutter up your tramp. The nice thing about a barberhaul system that pulls the sheets outboard is it can be made part of the main beam and what makes that work well is because when, say, the wind is blowing on your aft quarter, your jib has a tendency to twist off and lose some power. Redirecting the sheet angle outboard and forward at the same time allows you to get the most efficient sail shape.

Here's how you might be able to do the cable system below: Since your boat has rails, drill a quarter inch hole through the top of the rail. Stick a carriage bolt through the rail and underneath have the bolt pass through a backup bar. Next, put a pad eye on the end of the bolt followed by the lock nut and now you've got your attachment points. My 5.7 was rigged this way and it worked well. Not being familiar with the 21 there may be obstacles to this I'm not familiar with. I'm going sailing today and there's a 21 where I keep my boat. If it's still there, I'll take a look.

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
--

Don´t try to reinvent the wheel! Just do it the way it has always been done on numerous beachcats. A stainless wire between the existing rails will solve all your problems in a simple way. The wire needs the slack as seen in the image, though.

This is the way it was done back in the days I was racing in the Tornado class:


Also check the downwind barberhaul system(blue ropes) :




Edited by revintage on Apr 14, 2022 - 01:20 PM.

--
Brgds
Lars

Frankentri 5.8/5.5/Inter20
Aerow trimaran foiler

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1192604934176635
--

Man, I appreciate it Bill - I'm open to any ideas. Simpler is better, but if the solution is good, I'm OK with a little more complexity. The rails, though are bedded on the hulls, so there's no real way to get a bolt through there, underneath. It may be that this is an effort in futility. However, I'll go ahead and build the reinforcements into the tramp while I build it.

--
Chuck C
NACRA 500 Mk2
--

Hey Lars - that looks like the ticket, especially since I can use the track I have. Any more pics of the cable across the tramp? I guess I can go to the Tornado pages and do some research - great tip!

--
Chuck C
NACRA 500 Mk2
--

These are the best I found on TornadoCat:







Edited by revintage on Apr 14, 2022 - 03:07 PM.

--
Brgds
Lars

Frankentri 5.8/5.5/Inter20
Aerow trimaran foiler

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1192604934176635
--

Perfect!

TornadoCat - will have to look that one up. I like this system, so far; looks do-able. This arrangement allows you to then travel the blocks in and out, but not really change the sheeting angle; which I guess once you get it where you want it (generally), you can mange the compromise with the sheet tension.
Edit-NM, I figured the sheet angle out on the way home from work. The tracks slide. Perfect.



Edited by charlescarlis on Apr 14, 2022 - 06:53 PM.

--
Chuck C
NACRA 500 Mk2
--

Here is what I did, with two Laser boom vang blocks
https://www.thebeachcats.…ictures?g2_itemId=136436
It’s a continuous dyneema loop, with loops to hook the jib blocks, those go at different sides of the loop, the adjustment lines go at the same side of the loop. To make sure that both sides are at the same position, adjust them at the outmost position, both touching the block. On the picture the adjustment line starts at the same point than the attachment loop, on the other side it starts separate, on the other side of the dyneema loop.

Sorry i can’t insert the picture from my cell phone.
The only drawback of this system is that you need to adjust on both sides, to me it’s perfectly ok, I adjust it very rarely just for the conditions of the day, not much more. The barberhauler is used for specific sailing angles, that’s different, I personally haven’t really needed it so I don’t have one on my boat.



Edited by Andinista on Apr 15, 2022 - 01:59 PM.

Where did you get the track blocks and triangle plate to mount the blocks to? I haven't found them yet. Even the Ronstan slide travelers (in stainless steel) are being discontinued, but I can still get a couple now.

--
Chuck C
NACRA 500 Mk2
--

I got the triangle plate from Murrays, long ago, I don’t see it now. The track slide is available there. The vang blocks, I had one from an old Laser and got a second one at a local store (far from you I’m sure), I see they are still available, here for instance
https://westcoastsailing.…-lower-vang-block-allen/
For the triangle plate, if I had to replace one I’d try cutting a stay adjuster or a chain plate on two segments and make a triangle with them, from the bolts of the slide to the pin on the block.



Edited by Andinista on Apr 17, 2022 - 06:29 AM.

Hey Chuck,
Take a picture of your existing travelers. Probably you can modify them. I have a pair of Nacra travelers, question is if you have the same track?



Edited by revintage on Apr 17, 2022 - 12:20 PM.

--
Brgds
Lars

Frankentri 5.8/5.5/Inter20
Aerow trimaran foiler

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1192604934176635
--

The track is standard Ronstan, 5/8", I believe. Looks like I'll need to likely need to fabricate something to bolt onto the slides, which I can still get. Not terribly difficult, just a pain. Thanks!

--
Chuck C
NACRA 500 Mk2
--

No pain, no gain .

--
Brgds
Lars

Frankentri 5.8/5.5/Inter20
Aerow trimaran foiler

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1192604934176635
--

Here's another idea you've may not have considered: Put the jib blocks on traveler tracks on the main beam. The caveat to this is that the foot of the jib would have to altered to get the proper sheeting angle. Hobie 16 is done this way and so is the Nacra 500 / 570. Look at a diagram of one of those Nacras and you'll see what I mean about the jib cut. Sailors totally performance orientated may scoff at this, but it certainly would enable you to change the slot and free up your tramp at the same time.

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
--

Thought about that, but I THINK my jib overlaps a bit, so a traveler and track on the beam might not work, but will have to check that out. I'd have to re-cut the jib, if not get an entirely new one made, I think. Real estate on the trampoline is not an issue. I'm merely trying to improve sheeting so that I can get it to point higher. I think that before I do anything really permanent like drilling new holes into the beam, I'll play with replacing the jib cars with some custom built jobs I can run a cable between and experiment with configurations. That can be un-done easily with no harm/foul.

Otherwise, a track on the front beam makes a lot of sense. At that point, tough it's a self tacking jib setup and be done with it. Which, ACTUALLY...

--
Chuck C
NACRA 500 Mk2
--

Appears to be pretty common around here, at least on the Nacras. Was at the local Nacra states over the weekend, and at least 5 of the 17 boats had the jib blocks on the tramps.

Unfortunately i didn't take many photos of the setup, but I'll see what gets posted in the next few days





Edited by johnoau on Apr 19, 2022 - 12:37 PM.

--
1335 XTSea Nacra 5.8 NA
605 Nacra 4.5
Cleveland Yacht Club
Brisbane, AU
--

shortyfox

Here's another idea you've may not have considered: Put the jib blocks on traveler tracks on the main beam. The caveat to this is that the foot of the jib would have to altered to get the proper sheeting angle. Hobie 16 is done this way and so is the Nacra 500 / 570. Look at a diagram of one of those Nacras and you'll see what I mean about the jib cut. Sailors totally performance orientated may scoff at this, but it certainly would enable you to change the slot and free up your tramp at the same time.

Smaller jib means less sail area for downwind
not an issue with a spin boat but on a non spin boat, ... you will feel it

Got no spin, though it's meant to have one, so... And, I like not having the complexity for now.

But, that's a good point on anything I do that recuts the jib to a smaller size; downwind performance to suffer. Looks like looking around for some stainless triangle brackets and try my hand at making the Tornado-style jib block arrangement. After looking at the tramp-mounted blocks in action and the stress they put on the fabric, I think I'll give that a pass.

--
Chuck C
NACRA 500 Mk2
--

charlescarlis

Hobie 21se - we sail it as intended, so not gentle, but not abused either. Point is, we put the designed forces on the boat, sail and rig.

I've never much liked how the jib cars are only adjustable fore and aft, and going upwind, I believe I'm loosing a bit of ability to point because I can't close the slot enough. Soooo..., since I'm about to start making a new trampoline, I was going to sew some heavy reinforcements in it to accommodate a few extra grommets on each side, allowing me to run a few loops of line to be able to mount the blocks ala F18 style. same average position fore and aft, but with 3 loops, giving me some adjust-ability with closing the slot more. I guess I'd have to find an average fore-aft position with the loop length to adjust leech/foot tension, though not adjustable while sailing...

Can a trampoline hold the loads without ripping out? Seems like it'd be a lot on this boat.
Is this just trading one problem for another? I suppose I could add a clew board to the jib if need-be...

The "classic" Tornadoes have done this years (decades) ago, while still an olympic class boat. I haven't dug through the responses yet, but I'm sure someone (or I) can find a pic. Brining the jib lead inboard will really help your point in medium air. But, simply and with out big modifications to the trampoline, you can add the 4-way system. Unfortunately, it does separate the trampoline, but that helps keep the crew up forward where they belong... I can take a picture, or you can come by and look how Franken is set-up.

--
Scott

Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC

Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
--

charlescarlis

The track is standard Ronstan, 5/8", I believe. Looks like I'll need to likely need to fabricate something to bolt onto the slides, which I can still get. Not terribly difficult, just a pain. Thanks!

Let me check. I think I have an extra set of cars and triangles from the Prindle 19. They may be the same track. I think they are Ronstan cars.

charlescarlis

Thought about that, but I THINK my jib overlaps a bit, so a traveler and track on the beam might not work, but will have to check that out. I'd have to re-cut the jib, if not get an entirely new one made, I think. Real estate on the trampoline is not an issue. I'm merely trying to improve sheeting so that I can get it to point higher. I think that before I do anything really permanent like drilling new holes into the beam, I'll play with replacing the jib cars with some custom built jobs I can run a cable between and experiment with configurations. That can be un-done easily with no harm/foul.

Otherwise, a track on the front beam makes a lot of sense. At that point, tough it's a self tacking jib setup and be done with it. Which, ACTUALLY...

I think you would lose 1/2 the size on your jib. I thought about that with Franken to keep the tramp simple, but I have gotten to where I like the jib power and can handle it easily.

--
Scott

Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC

Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
--

Chuck,

Chris here,

I would just string a dyneema strap across like my prindle is done, and like the classic tornado. Use a bullet block on both sides and set a clam cleat facing it to adjust in and out

--
Captain Chris Holley
Fulshear, TX
'87 Prindle 19 "¡Hijole!"
'74 sunfish "1fish"
--

I second to using Dyneema. Easy to splice by yourself, anyone can do it. Use something like 5mm DM20, even if it oversize visavi strength. Note: There must be slack in the strap, otherwise you risk to rip out the traveler track. The way Chris has done with a Bullet and a metal Clamcleat is std procedure, simple and straight forward.

--
Brgds
Lars

Frankentri 5.8/5.5/Inter20
Aerow trimaran foiler

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1192604934176635
--

[q

Quote

uote]I think you would lose 1/2 the size on your jib. I thought about that with Franken to keep the tramp simple, but I have gotten to where I like the jib power and can handle it easily.

[/quote]

I found a pretty good line drawing of a 21 on line and the jib foot looks pretty high up. If you put your jib blocks on the main beam (like a N570) it appears to me you would actually have to add material to the foot of that jib to get the jib sheets to pull towards the center of effort. Imagine drawing a line from the tack angling down towards the front beam. Your clew would be much lower, close to the jib block when sheeted in tight. I know you're committed to doing it another way but I'm just curious. Someone let me know if I'm wrong and why.

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
--

I think you may be right, just been a long time since I set her up to recall correctly. That should change this weekend. I've actually got 3 different jobs, with one being 110%, which may be coloring my memory. Best to set it up this weekend and start playing with it to see what's possible. I've got to bend a new main I'm picking up anyhow. I already have the dyneema and fids, so that's easy enough to try Chris' idea.

Still, the idea of a self tacking jib, though expensive has merit in the end. But setting up the 4-way or just adding tweakers may be all it needs...

Man I appreciate the advice, guys!

--
Chuck C
NACRA 500 Mk2
--

Hello,
Back when Tornado came out, i sailed them. Same with the supercat 20.
The Panther Craft T had the jib strop running fore and aft with a rubber tube around it, making them into hiking straps as well. The jib could be pulled outboard by the barber hauler.
As you mentioned, the Super Cat had the jib blocks mounted to the hulls with a simple system that pulled the jib inboard from the boom. As you ease the main the jib moves outboard.
Later on the Tornado i raceed on had a bare wire running across the tramp across wise(i think under the tramp) with loops that the jib blocks attached to above the tramp. We could move the jib block on the lazy sheet side easily using a snap hook attachment. We also used the barber hauler off the wind. No spi in those days.
hope this helps.