Looking for my first sailboat. I have very little sailing experience with a recreational Sunfish - ultra simple rig, not the race version.

I want a beachcat to start with. I have Hobie Wave, Topaz 14C, and RS Cat 14 in my mind. I am 150lb.

I wish to be able to sail a Hobie 16, but I don't think I can sail it singlehanded at this stage.

Any ideas or recommendations?



Edited by sun on Nov 23, 2022 - 11:15 PM.

The first question is, why do you want to sail a Hobie 16?

The Hobie 16 can be sailed solo'd, just dont go out in conditions that a newbie shouldn't be going out in. One advantage of the H16, is the popularity and availability.

I don't see the point in getting a simpler boat than the H16 and then upgrading later, the H16 isnt a bad boat to start with.

Find a local club that has a beach cat fleet and have a chat, I'm sure their will be opportunities to crew etc they also generally go out together and with a support vessel.



Edited by johnoau on Nov 24, 2022 - 05:12 PM.

--
1335 XTSea Nacra 5.8 NA
605 Nacra 4.5
Cleveland Yacht Club
Brisbane, AU
--

H16 as a first? Certainly many have, successfully. Heck, I started with a H21, about as far from a starter boat as you can get, but I had/have help. It's too big for many beginner mistakes, but none of the boats you're considering are very tolerant to beginner abuse. What you will find is that if you start simple/slow you'll likely get bored wanting more performance pretty quick. It's that much fun, even if you're not competing.

I'd get a boat with a jib, to make tacking easier and a little more performance. Find out where folks are sailing and get some initial help, especially on-water coaching.

--
Chuck C
NACRA 500 Mk2
Hobie 21se (sold)
--

Thanks guys. I am a little worried of rightning the Hobie 16. I'll possibly need to start at calmer weather and buy a cat righting bag. I saw a couple of 16s that were simplified for rental use. Both had bulb floaters on the top of their masts. I assume I can benefit from those floaters too.

If you're sailing primarily solo, I'd be considering a H14 Turbo, Nacra 4.5/450, or similar, a little bit easier to manage on your own, but it all depends on why you want to the H16.

--
1335 XTSea Nacra 5.8 NA
605 Nacra 4.5
Cleveland Yacht Club
Brisbane, AU
--

johnoau

If you're sailing primarily solo, I'd be considering a H14 Turbo, Nacra 4.5/450, or similar, a little bit easier to manage on your own, but it all depends on why you want to the H16.

H14 Turbo had always been top on my list. The problem is I haven't come across a well maintained one - yet. H16 is still in production, plenty out there. I will check out Nacra 4.5 / 150. I was also considering 160 and 500, but I will go with an H16 if it comes to that. I would take an H14 Turbo over an H16 anyday.

charlescarlis

none of the boats you're considering are very tolerant to beginner abuse.

I thought Wave was very tolerant to beginner abuse. But yeah I would rather have H14/16 instead - if I can handle.



Edited by sun on Nov 25, 2022 - 02:24 AM.

Hobie WAVE. Learn to sail then look for a cat with more horsepower.

--
Master UniRig Sailor
--

Check out this vide. Lot's of helpful info.
How to choose a beginner catamaran

My first catamaran was through a membership in a local sailing center with Hobie Waves. I've been a member there for over 20 years. A Wave can keep you happy for a long time!



Edited by danielt1263 on Nov 25, 2022 - 02:11 PM.

sun

charlescarlis

none of the boats you're considering are very tolerant to beginner abuse.

I thought Wave was very tolerant to beginner abuse. But yeah I would rather have H14/16 instead - if I can handle.Edited by sun on Nov 25, 2022 - 02:24 AM.

Charlie was wrong. The Wave is a very tough boat, a main reason why you see so many of them at resorts, where they get abused in every possible way.



Edited by Edchris177 on Nov 26, 2022 - 05:48 AM.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Yeah, I wrote that wrong... I meant that ALL THE BOATS he was considering are tolerant to abuse-good choices, but I still wouldn't get a wave because of no jib...

--
Chuck C
NACRA 500 Mk2
Hobie 21se (sold)
--

Wave seems to be a fun one to learn on. Though, just the tiller and one line to deal with, I won't gain experience with cunningham, traveller, and outhaul system.

I'll confess...I've sailed Wave's quite a few times... (kind of like riding a moped;they're fun, but you're too embarrassed to tell your friends your riding one). There's also a big one design racing group, so you do have that in the future. You really can't go wrong with your choices, but be prepared to buy another, eventually. The Wave's do have a good resell ability as well, due to name recognition, etc.

No matter which way you go, it's fun and you'll love it.

--
Chuck C
NACRA 500 Mk2
Hobie 21se (sold)
--

charlescarlis

Yeah, I wrote that wrong... I meant that ALL THE BOATS he was considering are tolerant to abuse-good choices, but I still wouldn't get a wave because of no jib...

I agree with all that.
If you are reasonably athletic, I would skip the Wave. Get a righting bag, sail in moderate conditions til you get more comfortable.
The Nacra 4.5 would be great. Not sure where you are, but Mystere also made a similar sized Cat. There was a good fleet of them in the central Midwest.
They might not be common, but a Dart 15 would be ideal. I keep one for high wind, (20+), days. They’re still being made, (England), parts are available. Easily rigged & righted.
https://www.thebeachcats.…ictures?g2_itemId=128351

As Charlie said above, grab one & sail it. I wouldn’t get hung up on a particular model, buy the one in the BEST condition. Few things are as expensive as a free boat. Starting out, with little experience, especially if you have reefs and/or shallows, a boom less, boardless setup would be ideal. My 1st Cat was a Nacra 5.7, it’s still the boat I would keep if I could only have one Cat, though it’s not ideal if you want to race one design, as there are not fleet sizes of say an H16, or H18.



Edited by Edchris177 on Nov 26, 2022 - 06:20 AM.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

sun

Thanks guys. I am a little worried of rightning the Hobie 16. I'll possibly need to start at calmer weather and buy a cat righting bag. I saw a couple of 16s that were simplified for rental use. Both had bulb floaters on the top of their masts. I assume I can benefit from those floaters too.

I’m a little less than your weight and you should absolutely ensure you can right any boat you’re considering before you buy it. While there’s lots of traffic in St Joesphs sound, you can easily be a half mile offshore and several miles from your launch point. I would never sail a boat that I wasn’t sure exactly how I’d right.

--
Dana, Holly, Emma & Hannah

LJ/Stu's Dart 18 (Sold! :( )
--

Thanks again, everyone. I've watched some YT videos, and I think I cannot right an H16 solo - at least, at this stage. H16 will be my future goal.
A boomless cat set up would be better. Skeg hull would be a good idea too as advised.
Wave comes with one line to handle out of factory. I hope the new Waves don't need any drilling to install a jib, in case I want to upgrade at some point.Topaz 14c might be a better option though, same weight with Wave but more sail area.
To be honest, I cannot decide. I think this calls for a vacation to a venue, where I can rent Waves, 16s, and such.



Edited by sun on Nov 28, 2022 - 01:21 AM.

johnoau

... but it all depends on why you want to the H16.

Speed. I wanna smoke all the Lasers! :)



Edited by sun on Nov 28, 2022 - 10:37 AM.

There is a Taipan 4.9 for sale on this site. Start out Uni rigged and work up to all three sails. Don't let the boards scare you.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--

dssaak

There is a Taipan 4.9 for sale on this site. Start out Uni rigged and work up to all three sails. Don't let the boards scare you.

I had a Taipan 4.9 (rigged as an F-16 and sailed uni.) I'm 150 lbs. Every sail was a nail biting adventure and it was almost impossible for me to right. This severely limited my sailing time. I don't recommend it as a first boat.

Many years ago, I started on a Hobie 14 weighing a bit less than 150lbs. I wouldn't say every sail was a nail biting adventure but it sure was exciting. It was exciting mainly because I had never sailed before. But I read the manual that came with it, got out on the water as much as I could and it wasn't long before I wasn't flipping it everytime I went out. If I had known other cat sailors, I am sure it wouldn't have taken as long.

Funny thing is, many years later I was still flippng my cats albeit less frequently. Not because I didn't know how to sail but because I enjoyed sailing at that ragged edge. At my age, those days are over now but it was fun then. My point is, don't let any boat scare you (well may be a couple of the bigger boats) if you have the right mindset (and carrying a water bag to add extra weight when righting the boat).

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--

I'll be moving by Lake Michigan in a year or year-and-a-half. I want to get into cat sailing as soon as I'm there. Currently, I am doing okay with my Sunfish, ideal for the current venue. I just wish I had gotten the race version; I might do some upgrades on her sails.

I almost bought a beaten Laser yesterday but then passed. I wanted it as I lack the experience in utilizing cunningham, traveller, outhaul system, and etc... However, after talking with you folks, I realized I might not even have to get into those features ever as it looks like my first cat possibly won't have a boom - Perhaps a cunnigham and a traveller for the mast.

I'm always on the market for used deals. As many new sailboats require ordering months in advance nowadays, I've started the market search for new boats a little too early. I don't think some boats on my list can even be ordered anymore.

I will test ride the Wave for a few times and make a decision based on that experience. Meanwhile, if I find an H14 in good condition, that will put an end to the search of course, regardless her boom.

I like the Wave, but I think I'll outgrow her fast, just like how I've outgrown my Sunfish.



Edited by sun on Nov 28, 2022 - 02:03 PM.

Quote

those features ever as it looks like my first cat possibly won't have a boom - Perhaps a cunnigham and a traveller for the mast.

Every cat i have seen has a downhaul (cunningham), even though the hobie 16's have a very lackluster one and not sure what a traveler "for the mast is", but if you mean a traveler on the boom (Outhaul), - boomless boats (typically) have multiple holes on the sail leach (where the blocks are hung) to act as an outhaul (inboard placement for a fuller sail, outboard for a flatter sail). the disadvantage with that setup is the inability to modify this on the fly (typically flat for upwind and full for downwind)

SOME (very few) boomless cats have a small track built into the sail to create an outhaul -

Downhaul and outhaul (and traveler) setting are used to power up or down the sails

EDIT: "(inboard placement for a fuller sail, outboard for a flatter sail)." I think i got this backwards: - pretty sure it is inboard for a flatter sail (as this would pull the sail taught), outboard for a fuller sail (as this would pull the sail in/add curve/shape)



Edited by MN3 on Nov 29, 2022 - 07:51 AM.

sun

I'll be moving by Lake Michigan in a year or year-and-a-half. I want to get into cat sailing as soon as I'm there. Currently, I am doing okay with my Sunfish, ideal for the current venue. I just wish I had gotten the race version; I might do some upgrades on her sails.

I almost bought a beaten Laser yesterday but then passed. I wanted it as I lack the experience in utilizing cunningham, traveller, outhaul system, and etc... However, after talking with you folks, I realized I might not even have to get into those features ever as it looks like my first cat possibly won't have a boom - Perhaps a cunnigham and a traveller for the mast.

I'm always on the market for used deals. As many new sailboats require ordering months in advance nowadays, I've started the market search for new boats a little too early. I don't think some boats on my list can even be ordered anymore.

I will test ride the Wave for a few times and make a decision based on that experience. Meanwhile, if I find an H14 in good condition, that will put an end to the search of course, regardless her boom.

I like the Wave, but I think I'll outgrow her fast, just like how I've outgrown my Sunfish.Edited by sun on Nov 28, 2022 - 02:03 PM.

Your weight, I believe, is the first consideration. You can make the boat set-up as simple or complicated as you wish. I think the Wave could be a good contender for starting out. Once you get comfortable with experience, jump up to something with more horsepower (which does add to rigging and derigging times and "junk on the tramp"). Maybe consider a Hobie 17? You can add a jib down the road, or keep it as-is. It really depends on what you are going to do with the boat and what "features" you would like. I have raced a few of boomless boats (Nacra 5.8, Nacra 5.0, Nacra 6.0) and they have pros and cons. I am toying with setting up my modified Prindle 18-2 with a boomless main for cruising and farting around.

--
Scott

Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC

Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
--

MN3

Quote

those features ever as it looks like my first cat possibly won't have a boom - Perhaps a cunnigham and a traveller for the mast.

Every cat i have seen has a downhaul (cunningham), even though the hobie 16's have a very lackluster one and not sure what a traveler "for the mast is", but if you mean a traveler on the boom (Outhaul), - boomless boats (typically) have multiple holes on the sail leach (where the blocks are hung) to act as an outhaul (inboard placement for a fuller sail, outboard for a flatter sail). the disadvantage with that setup is the inability to modify this on the fly (typically flat for upwind and full for downwind)

SOME (very few) boomless cats have a small track built into the sail to create an outhaul -

Downhaul and outhaul (and traveler) setting are used to power up or down the sailsEdited by MN3 on Nov 28, 2022 - 02:53 PM.

You explained what I meant to say way better than I had. For example, with the Wave, there is only downhaul line and mainsheet. But the downhaul line is for only tensioning while setting up.

I meant this with the traveller:
https://youtu.be/iGfkioJwm0M

You mean the holes at the clew?



Edited by sun on Nov 28, 2022 - 04:03 PM.

There isn't a whole lot of bouancy in those H14 hulls.

--
dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
--

texastuma

Maybe consider a Hobie 17?

Hobie 17 is a nice one too.



Edited by sun on Nov 28, 2022 - 04:13 PM.

I'd be trying to think a bit longer term, if you're going to be sailing with a club at Lake Michigan, see if you can suss out what the majority sail, and work from there. It's far more enjoyable to sail something similar to the other members and at least being socially competitive without having to be over the top competitive. I know I wouldn't enjoy sailing as much a Hobie wave in a fleet of H14/16/Nacra 450's etc, similarly for sailing a H14 in a fleet of A Class and Taipans.

I think you'll out grow the Hobie Wave quickly.

--
1335 XTSea Nacra 5.8 NA
605 Nacra 4.5
Cleveland Yacht Club
Brisbane, AU
--

johnoau

I'd be trying to think a bit longer term, if you're going to be sailing with a club at Lake Michigan, see if you can suss out what the majority sail, and work from there. It's far more enjoyable to sail something similar to the other members and at least being socially competitive without having to be over the top competitive. I know I wouldn't enjoy sailing as much a Hobie wave in a fleet of H14/16/Nacra 450's etc, similarly for sailing a H14 in a fleet of A Class and Taipans.

I think you'll out grow the Hobie Wave quickly.

Good point.

I'll take a vacation there this summer, see the fleets around, and test whatever they have as rentals. I think I started the search a little too early. For now, I'll go back to my Sunfish and upgrade the sails.

I'll be back. ;)



Edited by sun on Nov 28, 2022 - 09:33 PM.

Hi "sun", I was in your shoes and was looking for cats in the 14 ranges such as RS, Topaz, etc. Yes the H16 are easily accessible but a friend of mine had to be rescued with hypothermia because he tipped and couldn't get it back up too. It's a real risk on the great lakes.
Anyway, I started on a Prindle 18 and it was a blast. Though I had to call for help a few times when I tipped it until I was able to right it solo using a waterbag. It wasn't easy but it was do-able with a struggle and I'm about 180lbs.

After having some hull soft spots, I traded it in for a H14 Turbo and that was a blast. BUT similar to you, I'm sailing Lake Huron, and these big lakes are a little overpowering for the H14T. Yeah I was going very fast and at the same time I pitchpoled it many times, forward, sideways, backwards, etc. But since that boat was so light I was able to just bring it up in seconds with no issues at all.
This summer I sailed a few boomless 15 footers Hobie Playcat, Nacra in Europe and really like them but aren't able to buy them in the States. I really like the boomless feature.

So I was checking out new RS, Topaz, Nacra, etc. but was able to find a Nacra F16 which is very stable and buoyancy. However, I did flip it once and wasn't able to right it solo. This is a very concern of mine as well.

Since you didn't mention where you going to sail Lake Michigan, check out the Catamaran Sailing Association of Michigan and Wisconsin, CRAM https://cramsailing.com/ or CRAW https://crawracing.org/. This is a very nice group of sailors and always would welcome you if you want to crew and learn at the same time. This might give you a good idea on what you want.

--
1980 Prindle 18 (sold)
1984 Hobie 14Turbo (sold)
2013 Nacra F16
2018 Topaz Uno RaceX
--

Quote

You explained what I meant to say way better than I had. For example, with the Wave, there is only downhaul line and mainsheet. But the downhaul line is for only tensioning while setting up.

The downhaul on the wave (like other hobies) is a simple cleat on the mast. You tie off the line to the cleat, around the sail grommet and then cleated (making this a 2:1). this is adjustable on the fly (tensioned hard for upwind, and loosened for downwind) by uncleatting and resetting - that being said it will be hard to do on the fly without crew

page 21 - https://media.hobie.com/d…bie_Wave_Manual_2020.pdf



Edited by MN3 on Nov 29, 2022 - 10:29 AM.

MN3

The downhaul on the wave (like other hobies) is a simple cleat on the mast. You tie off the line to the cleat, around the sail grommet and then cleated (making this a 2:1). this is adjustable on the fly (tensioned hard for upwind, and loosened for downwind) by uncleatting and resetting - that being said it will be hard to do on the fly without crew

You again did a better job explaining my thoughts. My point was that cunningham tensioning / loosening would not be possible on the fly without crew on a Wave.

Quote

You again did a better job explaining my thoughts. My point was that cunningham tensioning / loosening would not be possible on the fly without crew on a Wave.

It is possible - but not the most convenient with the stock setup.
they sell kits to upgrade from the stock 2:1 to more purchases for easier setting
you can change out the stock cleat for a clam cleat, this would make securing it much easier
you can even run the downhaul line down the mast, to the beam, to a turning block, to each side for skipper adjustments on the fly

I have sailed beachcats for over 20 years and mostly solo
my big cats (5.5 and 6.0) are much more complex to manage than a wave (including with spinnakers) and it is all possible - but it is a lot to manage, esp for a newbie

I wouldn't worry about getting "tired of" or outgrowing a wave if that is the best boat for you, they are a fine choice - but not the highest of performance and can be easily sold when you are ready to upgrade

MN3

EDIT: "(inboard placement for a fuller sail, outboard for a flatter sail)." I think i got this backwards: - pretty sure it is inboard for a flatter sail (as this would pull the sail taught), outboard for a fuller sail (as this would pull the sail in/add curve/shape)Edited by MN3 on Nov 29, 2022 - 07:51 AM.

I figured that out.

You see, as my Sunfish has recreational sails, I have only mainsheet and tiller. I have no experience in outhaul and cunningham adjustments. I thought Wave was like that too, but now, I know that I can stop and adjust the downhaul tension on Wave when I wish to. I mean I knew it was there, but never look at it as a control line as the tension is not adjustable on the go with the standard set up. From the way I explain things, you possibly notice how much I still have to learn. Getting there, one line at a time...

So...the boomless set up will have cunningham and perhaps multiple holes on the sail leach (where the blocks are hung) to act as an outhaul. Still, I don't need to buy a Laser to figure them out; it seems to me that on the simple / beginner cats I consider, there are not many tedious adjustments - pretty straightforward process that will possible require a quick stop singlehanded. That was what I meant to say earlier - and at the time, I was not aware of half the info here either.

I will upgrade the recreational sail on my Sunfish with a race sail, which has cunningham and outhaul. I think I'll be good for now.

Thanks, man. You really helped.



Edited by sun on Nov 29, 2022 - 10:34 PM.

[quote=MN3]

Quote

they sell kits to upgrade from the stock 2:1 to more purchases for easier setting
you can change out the stock cleat for a clam cleat,

I wouldn't worry about getting "tired of" or outgrowing a wave if that is the best boat for you, they are a fine choice - but not the highest of performance and can be easily sold when you are ready to upgrade

I was just checking out a similar upgrade:



By the way, bottom link is a similar traveler to the one I was talking about earlier:
https://westcoastsailing.…ve-mainsail-traveler-kit

If I can find a used Wave, I'll have no problem with outgrowing it as I can sell it for a similar price.

To be honest, I've started to lean toward sticking with monohull dingies when solo-ing. I think I better find a like-minded crew for the catamaran fun - at least, until I have enough experience.



Edited by sun on Nov 29, 2022 - 05:14 PM.

[quote=sun]

MN3

EDIT: "(inboard placement for a fuller sail, outboard for a flatter sail)."

I will upgrade the recreational sail on my Sunfish with a race sail, which has cunningham and outhaul. I think I am good for now.

Thanks, man. You really helped.Edited by sun on Nov 29, 2022 - 04:12 PM.

You shouldnt need a new "race" sail for the Sunfish to upgrades you noted - the "hacks"you're taliking about can be found on Lee Montes Youtube Channel.

Sunfish is a very simple but yet very fun little boat.



Edited by JohnES on Nov 29, 2022 - 02:52 PM.

--
John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
--

JohnES

You shouldnt need a new "race" sail for the Sunfish to upgrades you noted - the "hacks"you're taliking about can be found on Lee Montes Youtube Channel.

Sunfish is a very simple but yet very fun little boat.Edited by JohnES on Nov 29, 2022 - 02:52 PM.

I think I watched all of his videos. I need to replace the sails regardless. He is drilling the boom, which I don't want to do. So...I will buy a race boom and new sails - that's the plan.

I love the Sunfish too. Thanks for the tip, man.



Edited by sun on Nov 29, 2022 - 05:34 PM.

dwk

Anyway, I started on a Prindle 18 and it was a blast. Though I had to call for help a few times when I tipped it until I was able to right it solo using a waterbag. It wasn't easy but it was do-able with a struggle and I'm about 180lbs.

After having some hull soft spots, I traded it in for a H14 Turbo and that was a blast. BUT similar to you, I'm sailing Lake Huron, and these big lakes are a little overpowering for the H14T. Yeah I was going very fast and at the same time I pitchpoled it many times, forward, sideways, backwards, etc. But since that boat was so light I was able to just bring it up in seconds with no issues at all.

I am even 30 lb lighter. Well, cherish the H14T.

sun

en 30 lb lighter. Well, cherish the H14T.

How about a Prindle 16? It is the same as the 18, but they can be easily rigged and sailed solo, will not pitch-pole like a Hobie 16 or 14, and they were built like tanks.

Plenty of them for sale here in the classifieds and on Craigslist.



Edited by JohnES on Nov 29, 2022 - 04:17 PM.

--
John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
--

JohnES

How about a Prindle 16?

I'll check it out. Thanks.

JohnES

You shouldnt need a new "race" sail for the Sunfish to upgrades you noted - the "hacks"you're taliking about can be found on Lee Montes Youtube Channel.

Well, I watched the video again. I think I'll be comfortable drilling a couple of holes on the boom. It's gonna be a cheap upgrade after all.




Edited by sun on Nov 29, 2022 - 11:49 PM.

sun

MN3

The downhaul on the wave (like other hobies) is a simple cleat on the mast. You tie off the line to the cleat, around the sail grommet and then cleated (making this a 2:1). this is adjustable on the fly (tensioned hard for upwind, and loosened for downwind) by uncleatting and resetting - that being said it will be hard to do on the fly without crew

You again did a better job explaining my thoughts. My point was that cunningham tensioning / loosening would not be possible on the fly without crew on a Wave.

To adjust on the fly, I would recommend having a swiveling cleat on either side of the mast. On the Tornado and FrankenKitty, I have the downhauls led to the outer hull. I race FrankenKitty singlehanded and have sailed it in 30 knots of wind singlehanded and adjust the downhaul while on the trap.

It is possible, but is it worth it?

I have found that with the carbon sails and the stiff Prindle mast, the downhaul adjustment is very limited. I typically have 3 adjustments; light air wrinkles just removed, on the wire with a full arm length pulled and heavy air which is a bit more snug. There is not much shape change with these sails - we designed them that way. For everyday sailing, I'm not sure how much benefit vs hassle and extra lines on the tramp having a double ended downhaul would be.

--
Scott

Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC

Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
--

Quote

I'm not sure how much benefit vs hassle and extra lines on the tramp having a double ended downhaul would be.

Agreed - i have seen upgraded h16's downhaul but never on a wave - probably not need - i was just saying it is certainly possible to adjust on the fly and while solo

texastuma

It is possible, but is it worth it?

Not worth it.

MN3

i have seen upgraded h16's downhaul but never on a wave...

I have over a year before I move. One H14 will pop up by that time. If not, then a Wave will do just fine.

---
Thanks, everyone. It's been fun.

Just as an FYI. My local sailing center offers sailing lessons... Here is some of what they say:

Quote

As a single sailed catamaran, the Wave is perfect for introducing the theory of sailing to those who have never sailed before. Once you are ready, the next lesson on the Sunfish will emphasize how to physically balance the boat, as the basic maneuvers learned in the Wave become more challenging.

In other words, the Sunfish is harder to sail than the Wave. Also, a well sailed Laser is every bit as fast as a Wave. (The Laser's D-PN is 91.1 while the Wave's is 92.1 which means the Laser is technically faster.)

If you are looking to "level up" from your Sunfish or go faster than a Laser, then the Wave probably isn't a good choice.



Edited by danielt1263 on Dec 01, 2022 - 12:42 PM.

danielt1263

...In other words, the Sunfish is harder to sail than the Wave. Also, a well sailed Laser is every bit as fast as a Wave. (The Laser's D-PN is 91.1 while the Wave's is 92.1 which means the Laser is technically faster.)

If you are looking to "level up" from your Sunfish or go faster than a Laser, then the Wave probably isn't a good choice.

I still think a Hobie 14T will look so good next to my Sunfish.

sun

I still think a Hobie 14T will look so good next to my Sunfish.

And the Hobie 14 is quite a bit faster than the Wave.

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In other words, the Sunfish is harder to sail than the Wave. Also, a well sailed Laser is every bit as fast as a Wave. (The Laser's D-PN is 91.1 while the Wave's is 92.1 which means the Laser is technically faster.)

Meh - a sunfish is a very different boat and is MUCH more weight sensitive (will rock a lot easier since it is a single hull vs 2 hulls that are a few feet away from eachothere - that is why it will teach you weight distribution) - that doesn't make it harder to sail - I would say it is much easier to handle, learn on, and depower if hit with a gust (just let go of the mainsheet and the sail will blow directly downwind - de powering it almost completely / immediately, where a catamaran sail will hit the side-stays and still "show it's face to the wind" in many points of sail

they teach little kids on optis (small single sail dingies that look like bathtubs) - the sunfish is pretty similar boat besides shaped differently

Catamarans are harder to tack due to the fact you have to push the leaward hull around the windward hull

The Laser is a fiberglass olympic class racing dingy - the wave is a plastic (rotomolded) beginner catamaran (although can be enjoyed by any age/skill)

saying a laser is faster is true but apples to oranges

MN3

The Laser is a fiberglass olympic class racing dingy - the wave is a plastic (rotomolded) beginner catamaran (although can be enjoyed by any age/skill)

saying a laser is faster is true but apples to oranges

I only mention it because sun said earlier, "I wanna smoke all the Lasers!" I just wanted to warn that on a Wave, there won't be a lot of Laser smoking.

danielt1263

I only mention it because sun said earlier, "I wanna smoke all the Lasers!" I just wanted to warn that on a Wave, there won't be a lot of Laser smoking.

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I have over a year before I move. One H14 will pop up by that time. If not, then a Wave will do just fine.

Here's one in Ocean City https://southjersey.craig…14-turbo/7557401558.html.

And the last few season there's been one for sale around Traverse City, MI.

Or have you thought about an A-cat,those are lighter and can be lots of fun too. On the classified there's a Taipan 4.9 which has the same weight as the Hobie 14 and much newer model.



Edited by dwk on Dec 02, 2022 - 01:14 PM.

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1980 Prindle 18 (sold)
1984 Hobie 14Turbo (sold)
2013 Nacra F16
2018 Topaz Uno RaceX
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Taipan 4.9 which has the same weight as the Hobie 14 and much newer model.

problem with these cat's is there is no N.American support and parts would be hard to come by - and if found would be shipped from Down Under (unless you get very lucky and someone in N. America has spare parts)

MN3

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In other words, the Sunfish is harder to sail than the Wave. Also, a well sailed Laser is every bit as fast as a Wave. (The Laser's D-PN is 91.1 while the Wave's is 92.1 which means the Laser is technically faster.)

they teach little kids on optis (small single sail dingies that look like bathtubs) - the sunfish is pretty similar boat besides shaped differently

This is the most optics I’ve ever seen in one place….Manly Beach, Australia
https://www.thebeachcats.…ffd79bb4439d4424d6913c6c

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Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
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This is the most optics I’ve ever seen in one place….Manly Beach, Australia

Invented in Dunedin, fl .... the outline for the original plans are still on the factory floor (now the woodwright brewing company

https://woodwrightbrewing.com/the-history/

now available in a foiling dingy. :)




Edited by MN3 on Dec 02, 2022 - 08:41 PM.

dwk

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I have over a year before I move. One H14 will pop up by that time. If not, then a Wave will do just fine.

Here's one in Ocean City https://southjersey.craig…14-turbo/7557401558.html.

And the last few season there's been one for sale around Traverse City, MI.

Or have you thought about an A-cat,those are lighter and can be lots of fun too. On the classified there's a Taipan 4.9 which has the same weight as the Hobie 14 and much newer model.Edited by dwk on Dec 02, 2022 - 01:14 PM.

Ocean City is such a great venue for sailing. And there is a H14 for sale there. Lucky people. I need to find an H14 just like that. It looks as if it is in good condition.

I thought about Acats.



Edited by sun on Dec 03, 2022 - 02:07 PM.

MN3

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Taipan 4.9 which has the same weight as the Hobie 14 and much newer model.

problem with these cat's is there is no N.American support and parts would be hard to come by - and if found would be shipped from Down Under (unless you get very lucky and someone in N. America has spare parts)

Also they seem to be advanced for my current skills.

If you have your heart set on a H14, contact Jason Sanchez in St Pete, FL. I believe he has 3-4 good ones for sale at this time.

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Master UniRig Sailor
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wxguy

If you have your heart set on a H14, contact Jason Sanchez in St Pete, FL. I believe he has 3-4 good ones for sale at this time.

I will. Thank you.

MN3

Meh - a sunfish is a very different boat and is MUCH more weight sensitive

A Sunfish has a hard chine which gives it some stability - not as much as a catamaran, but all the same, and you really have to rock it to get it to tip

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John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
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Also they seem to be advanced for my current skills.

Meh, you can dummy it down (and flip often) - till you learn to stop (and what u did wrong)
you learn from your mistakes - and sailing with good sailers

my first cat was a H16 - didn't have a clue
then a h18 and met the local cat sailers - found a clew
got my 5.5 (same rigging as a a modern tipan 4.9)
I put 2 and 2 together and "got it" (upwind)

understanding downwind sailing was a whole new skillset

Nothing wrong starting and learning on 90's sail plan - esp if you have basic sailing skills to start with


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I would not touch a H14, or for that matter an H16 as an adult or especially large adult. Lots of better choices.

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Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
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MN3

Meh

What does 'meh' mean?

tominpa

I would not touch a H14, or for that matter an H16 as an adult or especially large adult. Lots of better choices.

I am 150lb.

So...What are the better choices?

The 14 is most suitable to youth and small sailors, and at 150 lbs you qualify. Any catamaran with taller hulls is going to be more stable, especially downwind, but on all points of sail and in rougher water. I don't find a H-16 to be particularly easy to upright without help or a water bag. I'm too large for a H-14 and that is part of my prejudice, but it's way to easy to bury a hull on those boats, and it's all over when you do.

Better choices? There are a lot of Prindle 16 cats around that are inexpensive, amazingly light, easy to move around on the beach and more stable and faster on the water. Nacra 5.0 is a light, fast skeg hull that will grow with your skills.

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Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
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Better choice ... F16 of whatever manufacturer you can get your hands on. Yes it has boards but they are very light and easy to handle. Don't confuse them with Nacra 6.0 or H18 boards. You can rig it like a H14 without jib, without spinnaker and it is lighter, easier to move around. Even main only, it will out sail a lot of the boats discussed. Best part is you'll never have to buy a new boat as it will grow with you as you gain more experience.

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dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
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MN3

Nothing wrong starting and learning on 90's sail plan - esp if you have basic sailing skills to start with

I don't know if I have the basic skills yet. Maybe I'll get there on my Sunfish.

dssaak

There isn't a whole lot of bouancy in those H14 hulls.

I have beenn watching some videos and started to understand what you mean with that. Maybe, I shouldn't be obsessed with the H14.



Edited by sun on Dec 07, 2022 - 03:08 PM.

tominpa

There are a lot of Prindle 16 cats around that are inexpensive, amazingly light, easy to move around on the beach and more stable and faster on the water. Nacra 5.0 is a light, fast skeg hull that will grow with your skills.

I have been hearing about Prindle 16 a lot. I will get into that. Nacra 5.0, I will have to check it out.

dssaak

Better choice ... F16 of whatever manufacturer you can get your hands on. Yes it has boards but they are very light and easy to handle. Don't confuse them with Nacra 6.0 or H18 boards. You can rig it like a H14 without jib, without spinnaker and it is lighter, easier to move around. Even main only, it will out sail a lot of the boats discussed. Best part is you'll never have to buy a new boat as it will grow with you as you gain more experience.

You mean that one that Nacra has? The semifoiling one? I don't think I can handle that anytime soon.

I have owned mine for 35 years. Basically, I am keeping it for the grandkids. The only time I take it out to sail is if it is blowing 20-30 mph.

I sold my F18 Tiger because the F16 not only is a great solo boat, we found that 2 up performance doesn't drop off much even without the jib.

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dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
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dssaak

I have owned mine for 35 years. Basically, I am keeping it for the grandkids. The only time I take it out to sail is if it is blowing 20-30 mph.

I sold my F18 Tiger because the F16 not only is a great solo boat, we found that 2 up performance doesn't drop off much even without the jib.

https://falconmarineusa.com/racing-sailboats/
?

Well, thanks for all the help. Eventually, these are the cats, and I'll have to pick one. I really want to rent a Wave and see how it feels before any decision. Seems like in windy conditions, Wave is not bad at all. I can add a jib on a used one.

Yes, the Falcon is the next generation to my Blade. There is also the Viper (https://www.goodalldesign.com.au › pages › viper). Nacra makes an F16 as well.

We now have three F16s at my club and are hoping to build a larger fleet.

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dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
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dssaak

Yes, the Falcon is the next generation to my Blade. There is also the Viper (https://www.goodalldesign.com.au › pages › viper). Nacra makes an F16 as well.

We now have three F16s at my club and are hoping to build a larger fleet.

So, F16 is the class, and there are multiple manufacturers building for that.

Correct.

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dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
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sun

So, F16 is the class, and there are multiple manufacturers building for that.

That's right. The Taipan was one of the early representatives of the class as well. That's the boat I owned. It's a high performance boat, so the SA/D ratio is quite high, even with just the main.

The SA/D of a Taipan is 49.1, Topaz 14CX is 29.2, RS Cat 14 XL is 27.8, and Wave is 31.8 (these calculations are with Main only and include a single 150# crew.)

This thread has gotten to long to re-read. If they haven't been mentioned, there are two boat criterial that are very near the top of my list. Buy a boat you don't have to repair; free boats are never cheap. Find out what they are sailing where you will do most of your sailing. Having the fastest boat it isn't much fun when you are waiting for everyone else all the time. It is really no fun being the slow boat in the pack and everyone has to wait for you. That is the main reason why the Tiger became my main boat over the Hobie 14 initially.

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dk

Blade F-16
Hobie 14
Corsair F-242
Mirage 25 (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
Hobie Tiger (Sold)
TomCat 6.2 (Sold)
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