I've had a bunch of different boats, and I suspect I know the answer, but my purpose is to find the best cheap cat to sail around the islands of beautiful east Penobscot Bay in Maine. The archipelago of islands there contain the "Island Trail" with great places to beach with only bay-like small waves, but the catch is the big tides and shoals. Also some rocky beaches.

So I want the best non board, preferably light boat, for this mission. I've owned a P-18 and 18-2, loved them both, but the Nacra models seem to have even more buoyancy and simplicity. The 5.7/570 seems best to me, but they're in super short supply. A decent 5.0 is available. I'm thinking about getting the 5.0 as a place holder for the 5.7, should I ever find one. Rugged skegs better than a P-18? Does the extra length make that big a difference? Thoughts? Thanks in advance...

One or two on this boat? That'll determine the answer between an 18ft or a 16 ft. If rugged is a priority, consider a Hobie Getaway. Heavier and slower yes, but tougher and front tramp as a bonus.

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
--

I have owned my 5.7 since 1986 and have sailed in the Atlantic, Pacific, and several of the Great Lakes. It delivers good performance and durability and is fairly easy to beach in difficult conditions. Obviously its old, but has been given a new composite Kevlar/Glass Epoxy bottom and Interlux Perfection paint, standing and running rigging, several tramps, sails and other upgrades over the years. It's a great boat with stability and good speed, but heavier than modern versions. It has passed through some gales and breaking off-shore surf, but I have aged more than the boat and no longer go on the double traps or take risks like I did 35 years ago. It's still ready, but I'm not. These boats come up every once in a while, and it's probably worth investing some work in the ones that have not been kept up to date.

--
Tom
NACRA 5.7 (1984 Sail 181)
Pennsylvania
--

cloudchsr

I've had a bunch of different boats, and I suspect I know the answer, but my purpose is to find the best cheap cat to sail around the islands of beautiful east Penobscot Bay in Maine. The archipelago of islands there contain the "Island Trail" with great places to beach with only bay-like small waves, but the catch is the big tides and shoals. Also some rocky beaches.

So I want the best non board, preferably light boat, for this mission. I've owned a P-18 and 18-2, loved them both, but the Nacra models seem to have even more buoyancy and simplicity. The 5.7/570 seems best to me, but they're in super short supply. A decent 5.0 is available. I'm thinking about getting the 5.0 as a place holder for the 5.7, should I ever find one. Rugged skegs better than a P-18? Does the extra length make that big a difference? Thoughts? Thanks in advance...

Things to consider: what crew weight are you anticipating? Not particularly for speed, but are you thinking of having 1,2, or 3 people on the boat? If you are in the 150-170# range and expect to have you and one other, the 5.0 may be best. I used to have a 5.0 (and did add a N5.8 rig on it and a 9' rack on the side for a particular regatta) and it is limited on buoyancy. Between the P18 and the N5.7, it really depends on what is available and a few differences: wanna go boomless? Do you like the Prindle or Nacra rudders better? Do you like the deck lip on the 18 or do you want a smoother hull like the Nacra? It will depend on the condition of each you find. The boomless is convenient and we have a local 5.8 that added a boom. I would only go with the 5.0 if the mast of the 5.7 or 18 is difficult to deal with. I think you'll enjoy the buoyancy of the bigger boats more as you cruise the area.

--
Scott

Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC

Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
--

We run both a 5.7 and a 5.0
Both handle two medium weight adults.
What is your wind situation?
The 5.0 is a bit under canvassed, it comes alive with 15mph wind, 20 rocks.
If winds are lighter in your area, the 5.7 wins hands down.
Both take about the same effort to right.
One other consideration…how do you store it? Both Nacras beat my H18 hands down for raiding or lowering the sail. I store on modified Seadoo lifts, & cannot turn them to be “into the wind”. The Nacra sails can be raised, & lowered easily, even with the sail against the shrouds.



Edited by Edchris177 on Aug 17, 2023 - 10:15 PM.

--
Hobie 18 Magnum
Dart 15
Mystere 6.0XL Sold Was a handful solo
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.0
Bombardier Invitation (Now officially DEAD)
Various other Dock cluttering WaterCrap
--

Ah, nice responses all, thank you!

So as for weight, I'm about 170, crew would be lighter, but I'm not authorized to disclose numbers. Occasionally I'll be going solo, so the smaller boats should be adequate weightwise. For winds, Maine summer winds generally are light, 10-ish knots or less. I've heard the 5.0 is undercanvassed also. I'll be keeping the boat on a beach, but the tides here are big, so lighter is preferred. No matter what it is, a winch will be involved, but still, lighter is better.

New in the mix, someone has a Supercat for sale locally, also older (1982), no board or boom, and some great engineering. Asking price is $3,500 for that, seems good structurally, but not very pretty cosmetically. When I add up new sails, either my time or someone else's for detailing, odds and ends, very soon it's a $6k boat or more and there are some very nice boats in that price range, newer but not boardless. Big thing about the boards is there are shoals here which I'd either have to learn where they all are or use my phone for a plotter or risk a big whack if I hit one.

Quite the dilemma....

Supercat 17, to be more specific...

Per your requirements (non board, preferably light boat), the 5.0 will be lighter and a more modern hull shape. You could have a slightly larger main built and solve the under canvassed problem. S17 is heavy in comparison. The 5.0 won't scare the "not authorized to disclose numbers" person. Take a righting bag with you for solo sailing. Have fun on your quest!

Bob

--
Master UniRig Sailor
--

Even under canvased, I still love the 5.0.

--
John

Nacra 5.0
CT
--

Good to hear, John. What makes you love the 5.0?

Roger to Bob on scaring the "undisclosed number" crew as well. She puts up with a lot of my water shenanigans, but her limits are well below mine.

The Supercat 17 looks like a beast. Everything currently on the market around here is 1980s vintage. Where are all the other boats???

Does the 5.0 have a square top mainsail option for older boats? Would a 500 sail help? Honestly, for the wicked cold water environment up heyah in Maine bay and ocean water, slightly undercanvassed is probably a good thing. Water temp yesterday was 61 degrees in Stonington, about as warm as it will get probably. So a righting exercise needs to be expeditious.

As a current 500 owner I 2nd the opinion of John...5.0 is the way to go. Too bad you weren't in the market a few weeks ago as there was a nice 87 5.0 on here for sale for $1500. It was up in NJ too so not far from you. Keep your eyes pealed for another one.

--
Pete
2001 NACRA 450 SOLD
2000 NACRA 500 TOTAL LOSS
2004 NACRA INTER 20 SOLD
2016 NACRA 500 Sport
DeLand, FL
--

Thanks Pete - what's better about the 500? There's a 5.0 in my general area that I haven't seen yet, but from teh serial number, it's early 80's, I forget when. Owner says good condition, but "retro 1980's look".

I assume the 5.0 is like other older boats which have heavy loads ahead of the forward beam in particular? Any other spots unique to that boat to focus on?

So I believe the hull shape is the same on 5.0 and 500. 500 has a modified rudder system and they moved the jib blocks to the front crossbar. Square top Main...not sure of any other differences really. Now the brand new 500 has a newer wave piercing hull as does the new 570. I would look the hulls over really well and do a sound test for any soft spots. Plan on upgrading sails no matter what...they are your engine and yes I would go to a newer square top main if it was me.

--
Pete
2001 NACRA 450 SOLD
2000 NACRA 500 TOTAL LOSS
2004 NACRA INTER 20 SOLD
2016 NACRA 500 Sport
DeLand, FL
--

Quote

So I believe the hull shape is the same on 5.0 and 500. 500 has a modified rudder system and they moved the jib blocks to the front crossbar. Square top Main...not sure of any other differences really.

There's another important difference between the 5.0 and the 500. The 500, and all Nacras for that matter, have switched to rectangular shaped cross beams. Structurally much better and also much easier to put the boat together and take it apart. Large bolts and threaded inserts inside the hulls. Big compression tubes that encircle the inside of the cross beam. No more straps. The jib blocks on the main beam aren't on every model but I'm not really sure. But that set up frees up space on the tramp but requires the foot of the jib to be cut with the tack much higher than the clew. Also, there's no fore and aft adjustment for the jib blocks which is important, but there's ways around that.

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
--

Good points Pete and Bill. Now find me a good relatively new one for sale cheap driven by a little old man (or lady) to church on Sundays and I'll be set!

Quote

There's another important difference between the 5.0 and the 500. The 500, and all Nacras for that matter, have switched to rectangular shaped cross beams. Structurally much better and also much easier to put the boat together and take it apart. Large bolts and threaded inserts inside the hulls. Big compression tubes that encircle the inside of the cross beam. No more straps. The jib blocks on the main beam aren't on every model but I'm not really sure. But that set up frees up space on the tramp but requires the foot of the jib to be cut with the tack much higher than the clew. Also, there's no fore and aft adjustment for the jib blocks which is important, but there's ways around that.

Good point about the cross beams and the construction of them...it's true for sure. But my jib blocks do have adjustments in the cross beam. They can be moved closer to the mast to tighten the slot. There are 3 pre determined positions for the Jib Blocks.

--
Pete
2001 NACRA 450 SOLD
2000 NACRA 500 TOTAL LOSS
2004 NACRA INTER 20 SOLD
2016 NACRA 500 Sport
DeLand, FL
--

Quote

Good point about the cross beams and the construction of them...it's true for sure. But my jib blocks do have adjustments in the cross beam. They can be moved closer to the mast to tighten the slot. There are 3 pre determined positions for the Jib Blocks.

Yes, but they cannot be moved fore and aft. When close hauled, you want an imaginary line extending from the jib sheet that bisects the sail area of the jib. Also as you fall off the wind, the jib twists off losing efficiency of the upper half. Now, Nacra jibs are very small, so it probably really doesn't make much difference especially if a spinnaker is involved. But when close hauled, if your lower telltales stream properly and the upper ones don't, attach the tack of the jib to a pennant. Just by raising the jib a couple of inches will have a profound effect on your sail trim, doing the same thing as moving the jib blocks forward.

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
--

Quote

Now, Nacra jibs are very small, so it probably really doesn't make much difference especially if a spinnaker is involved. But when close hauled, if your lower telltales stream properly and the upper ones don't, attach the tack of the jib to a pennant. Just by raising the jib a couple of inches will have a profound effect on your sail trim, doing the same thing as moving the jib blocks forward.

Good to know...Thanks! Sorry we got off topic...



Edited by saltlife77 on Aug 23, 2023 - 01:49 PM.

--
Pete
2001 NACRA 450 SOLD
2000 NACRA 500 TOTAL LOSS
2004 NACRA INTER 20 SOLD
2016 NACRA 500 Sport
DeLand, FL
--

No, it's good info. So why does the Supercat 17 get so little attention when it appears to be a faster and pioneering designed boat? Looking up the weight specs, it appears to be the same as the 5.0. The reason I'm asking is locally, amazingly enough, it appears I'll have a choice of those two. The better condition boat will get the nod, but they are likely similar, but I haven't finished my inspecting.

Searching, people have raved about the SC17. Has anyone sailed both for a comparison?

Thanks again! --George

If you are ever in CT you can look mine over in detail.



Edited by ctcataman on Aug 24, 2023 - 08:04 AM.

--
John

Nacra 5.0
CT
--

I've never sailed a SC 17 but at my sailing club one was parked next to me for a long time so I'll share my observations. The main beam is set a bit more forward than on most cats, so you get a larger tramp. It looks like this would increase the likelihood of pitchpoling but when you look at the forward volume of the hulls you realize pitchpoling won't be an issue. The hulls are relatively straight with no rocker with thinner sections forward. That tells me that in lighter air conditions you must get your weight well forward to sail to weather. In fact, looking at the hulls, it's hard to see how the boat sails well without boards, but apparently it does. The mast has no diamond wires which is surprising considering the boat has considerably more sail area than other boats in this size range. But the mast looks massive and any advantage when stepping the mast because of the lack of diamond wires is probably offset by the increased weight of the mast. The rudder castings, gudgeons and pintels look very strong, in fact the whole boat looks super solid.

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
--

I Grew up sailing on a SC17 and loved them. Only boat I would own other than my 500. However after learning that they had transome issues I went with the NACRA. I have heard stories about the transomes being ripped out during beaching or if you hit something. Never happened on any of the SC17's I had growing up but it concerned me enough to stay away from buying one now.

--
Pete
2001 NACRA 450 SOLD
2000 NACRA 500 TOTAL LOSS
2004 NACRA INTER 20 SOLD
2016 NACRA 500 Sport
DeLand, FL
--

Quote

I have heard stories about the transomes being ripped out during beaching or if you hit something.

Hard to believe, but perhaps the rudder kick up feature failed somehow. I can easily see that happening if the rudders remained locked down when hitting something at speed.

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
--

Quote

Hard to believe, but perhaps the rudder kick up feature failed somehow. I can easily see that happening if the rudders remained locked down when hitting something at speed.

MN3 Who posts here regularly brought it to my attention. Says he has seen it happen more than once.

--
Pete
2001 NACRA 450 SOLD
2000 NACRA 500 TOTAL LOSS
2004 NACRA INTER 20 SOLD
2016 NACRA 500 Sport
DeLand, FL
--

Quote

MN3 Who posts here regularly brought it to my attention. Says he has seen it happen more than once.

I'm not doubting it, but I wouldn't let it deter me if the boat was the right price. An older boat that's been sailed a lot that shows no stress cracking in the gel coat would be worth the risk. Perhaps the newer boats that are made by Aquarius have addressed this problem. I would call them and tell them what year the boat was made.

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
--

Quote

An older boat that's been sailed a lot that shows no stress cracking in the gel coat would be worth the risk. Perhaps the newer boats that are made by Aquarius have addressed this problem. I would call them and tell them what year the boat was made.

Good Advice...

--
Pete
2001 NACRA 450 SOLD
2000 NACRA 500 TOTAL LOSS
2004 NACRA INTER 20 SOLD
2016 NACRA 500 Sport
DeLand, FL
--

Re: SC17 transom damage from impacts, I believe there's a plastic screw in the rudder assembly that acts as a shear pin to prevent such damage. If this plastic screw is replaced by a metal one, the excessive loads would likely transfer to a vulnerable spot. I don't know this for absolute certain, but I can't imagine such a well designed boat having no basic protection from something as common (to some sailors) as running aground and/or beaching.

Late reply to CTmaran, thanks for the invite! Very kind, and I'll keep it in mind if I find myself in your hood.

--George

Ok, while I have this brain trust, the 5.0 in my hood is a 1983 model, hull 98. Would that be a solid fiberglass boat? When did they use sandwiches? And, obviously they made that switch, pros and cons of each?

Thanks again --George

When you say "sandwich", do you mean foam sandwich? That type of construction is resistant to impact, dings are much more likely to be just a dent. However, any dings that have cracked the fiberglass have to be repaired immediately or the foam will soak up water and cause all kinds of trouble. Don't be swayed by what they call "closed cell foam", water will get in there. Beware of any old used boat that used this type of construction. What you're calling solid fiberglass is reported to be lighter but more easily damaged, but dings are easily repaired with a little Marine Tex and don't have to be done right after they happen.

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
--

Quote

So why does the Supercat 17 get so little attention when it appears to be a faster and pioneering designed boat?

Supercats are great boats BUT: the mast is made out of anti-matter and weight about 4,000 lbs (give or take)
the SC 17, and 19 are VERY VERY VERY wet boats. the spray off the bows hits you right in the face ... all day long
the SC CAN be a bit tricky to right but like everything - technique is everything

Quote

n fact, looking at the hulls, it's hard to see how the boat sails well without boards, but apparently it does.

17 and 19 are the same hull design. 17 has no boards 19 does.... go figure

Quote

MN3 Who posts here regularly brought it to my attention. Says he has seen it happen more than once.

I can't recall seeing more than 1 time but i did see it first hand. A gaggle of people on a sc21 or 22(?) sailed off our causeway and didn't know/see/care there was a shallow "island" right infront of the beach and sailed right into it - tore the transom clean off. I know i have heard about it from other people but honestly can't recall seeing it happen first hand... I may have and just don't recall.



Edited by MN3 on Aug 27, 2023 - 03:42 PM.

cloudchsr

The Supercat 17 looks like a beast. Everything currently on the market around here is 1980s vintage. Where are all the other boats???

In the 90's the EPA started really pressing fiberglass and foam manufacturers and industry users. They put Clark Foam out of the surfboard supply business altogether, for one. Also Congress passed a repulsive tax on yachts over 100k, which literally killed the US yachting industry. All the legacy boatyards either closed or moved overseas. Repealing the tax did not bring anyone back. The damage was done. The sailing industry as a whole died with this. Prindle was sold to NACRA and dried up in the US, moving to Europe. Hobie dropped a number of models, etc. Availability dropped, fleet membership dropped, ownership dropped. We are all that is left, and the current materials are expensive, or alternately cheaper/heavier roto-mold.
My $0.02.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

https://raleigh.craigslist.org/boa/d/apex-1987-nacra-50/7645450450.html

--
Pete
2001 NACRA 450 SOLD
2000 NACRA 500 TOTAL LOSS
2004 NACRA INTER 20 SOLD
2016 NACRA 500 Sport
DeLand, FL
--

[quote=MN3]

Quote

n fact, looking at the hulls, it's hard to see how the boat sails well without boards, but apparently it does.

17 and 19 are the same hull design. 17 has no boards 19 does.... go figure

Not really. The 17 has a much finer section then the 19 and even more so than the 20,21(ARC) and 22. The 17 has so much lateral resistance it's a pain in the ass to move around. An SC20 can be spun and turned easily in comparison, a SC20 is damn near round at the transom. There is also a model of the SC19 that doesn't have boards. When I find one, it will be mine.

A long time ago when I was a lad, I remember looking at a Supercat brochure and reading that the 19 was available with or without boards and the board less one came with inserts for the dagger board openings. It sounds ridiculous, so perhaps I'm mistaken.

--
Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
--

klozhald

cloudchsr

The Supercat 17 looks like a beast. Everything currently on the market around here is 1980s vintage. Where are all the other boats???

They put Clark Foam out of the surfboard supply business

There was nothing in the works by any regulatory agency to shut Clark down, or to levy fines - just constant monitoring and paperwork. Add in local Laguna Nigle yuppies making it hard for him, and a few other law suites... and presto!

I guess one day after making millions and owning the blanks business, Grubby Clark just said enough is enough, shuttered it, and went surfing.

Two of his former employees opened a shop in Gardena; US Blanks, using the same methods and are still running strong today.



Edited by JohnES on Sep 18, 2023 - 05:16 PM.

--
John Schwartz
Ventura, CA
--

cloudchsr

Re: SC17 transom damage from impacts, I believe there's a plastic screw in the rudder assembly that acts as a shear pin to prevent such damage. If this plastic screw is replaced by a metal one, the excessive loads would likely transfer to a vulnerable spot. I don't know this for absolute certain, but I can't imagine such a well designed boat having no basic protection from something as common (to some sailors) as running aground and/or beaching.

--George

Hi, George!

Well, that's what one would think, but there are always surprises lurking. Yes, the SC rudder locks (the spring-loaded rollers) are supposed to have 3/8" plastic shafts that'll shear if they don't release. Turns out my SC20 has 1/4" stainless bolts instead, and corresponding 1/4" slots for them milled in the castings. I knew I was going to be replacing them but hadn't noticed the size difference when I stopped at Aquarius to pick up parts and hang out for a few hours with Tom. So when I got home and discovered the size difference and asked him about it, he said he'd never seen such a thing. Just a bit of early boat weirdness, gotta have those slots milled out.

--
Southern Alberta and all over the damn place.
*
1981 SuperCat 20 "Roberts' Rockets"
1983 SuperCat 19
TriFoiler #23 "Unfair Advantage"
Mystere 17
Unicorn A-Class (probably made by Trowbridge) that I couldn't resist rescuing at auction.
H18 & Zygal (classic) Tornado - stolen and destroyed - very unpleasant story.
Invitation and Mistral and Sunflower and windsurfers w/ Harken hydrofoils and god knows what else...
--

klozhald

In the 90's the EPA started really pressing fiberglass and foam manufacturers and industry users. They put Clark Foam out of the surfboard supply business altogether, for one. Also Congress passed a repulsive tax on yachts over 100k, which literally killed the US yachting industry. All the legacy boatyards either closed or moved overseas. Repealing the tax did not bring anyone back. The damage was done. The sailing industry as a whole died with this. Prindle was sold to NACRA and dried up in the US, moving to Europe. Hobie dropped a number of models, etc. Availability dropped, fleet membership dropped, ownership dropped. We are all that is left, and the current materials are expensive, or alternately cheaper/heavier roto-mold.
My $0.02.

Here's another interesting point for my "whither catamarans" paper that I don't think was raised in that thread (though I should go back and confirm). My question would be why an onerous tax on boats over $100K should affect a market in which most boats cost a fraction of that.

jonathan162

Here's another interesting point for my "whither catamarans" paper that I don't think was raised in that thread (though I should go back and confirm). My question would be why an onerous tax on boats over $100K should affect a market in which most boats cost a fraction of that.

Supply and demand.
When the big boys go under and no longer buy the materials, the materials suppliers go away too, and prices go up. There is less financial support for the sport, less visibility, less advertising, and the sport went out of every day consciousness.
The firms building those big yachts were the same one building the smaller craft, and they dried up. As I mentioned, repealing the tax did nothing, as the damage was done and world markets had popped up to adjust.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--