My trap lines are connected above the stays with a shackle.

Over the season, things get wrapped up, and twists are hard to see and resolve. I blame the jib halyard??

Any suggestions?

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John

Nacra 5.0
CT
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I'm not getting a clear picture of what's getting tangled with what and how. The trapeze wires - being relatively slack - will sometimes twist around each other a little (starboard with starboard, port with port), but they separate again as soon as you put a little tension on them. But they shouldn't get twisted around anything else.

Quote

I'm not getting a clear picture of what's getting tangled with what and how.

Me either. I'm not that familiar with the 5.0 but my guess is the crew's trapeze wire is at the main beam and the shock cord runs through the beam. The other trapeze is just aft of the shroud and the shock cord runs through a fairlead, through a grommet and under the tramp. Sometimes, when they're not loaded, the trapeze wires rub against the shrouds even though they are above them. I like them pretty loose when using them but that can be an annoyance when the "dog bones" flop around when you're not using them. I found these shock cord hooks that have a built jam cleat that enables me to tighten the shock cords thereby tightening the trap wires when not using them. Conversely, They can be made really loose when not sailing and prolong the life of the shock cord. Some will say it's really bad to have an open hook anywhere but they're facing down, I've been using them for years and never had them hook on anything, even when capsized.

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Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
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There should be one big shackle where the stays attach to the mast (mast hound). From port to starboard there should be:

1. Port trapeze line, single or double, by a thimble - NOT another shackle
2. Port side stay by a thimble
3. Forestay through a thimble
4. Starboard side stay by a thimble
5. Starboard trapeze line, single or double, by a thimble - NOT another shackle

Any additional shackles in this area are bound to get bound up and should be eliminated.

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Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
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I have 2 shackles, the upper for trap lines. I will go to one. Thanks.

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John

Nacra 5.0
CT
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Longer shock cords help to have more tension on the trapeze wires when not in use, without adding too much tension when in use. I have a block at each corner of the front beam underneath the tramp, so I run the shock cord from the grommet one side to the block on the opposite side, then to the other block and then to the other grommet. (Also through the fairleads on the hulls). And for the crew trapeze I have a similar arrangement with small blocks inside the front beam.



Edited by Andinista on Sep 21, 2023 - 02:26 PM.

ctcataman

I have 2 shackles, the upper for trap lines. I will go to one. Thanks.

Me too, I see no problem with that.

klozhald

There should be one big shackle where the stays attach to the mast (mast hound).
...
Any additional shackles in this area are bound to get bound up and should be eliminated.

I don't think that's strictly true. Lots of boats have a hound with two holes - the lower one for the stays, and the upper one for the trapeze wires. I've never seen a problem with that arrangement.

jonathan162

I don't think that's strictly true. Lots of boats have a hound with two holes - the lower one for the stays, and the upper one for the trapeze wires. I've never seen a problem with that arrangement.

Clearly ctcatamran is having this issue.
I have seen mast hounds with multiple holes, and the upper was usually for spinnaker attachment. More holes in anything makes the part weaker, and increases production costs. I can't see any manufacturer choosing to make a second hole just for trapeze lines, but it is possible.

--
Sheet In!
Bob
_/)_____/)_/)____/)____/)_____/)/)__________/)__
Prindle 18-2 #244 "Wakizashi"
Prindle 16 #3690 "Pegasus" Sold (sigh)
AZ Multihull Fleet 42 member
(Way) Past Commodore of Prindle Fleet 14
Arizona, USA
--

Quote

I can't see any manufacturer choosing to make a second hole just for trapeze lines, but it is possible.

Mine was already there.. I too wouldn't recommend to attach a second shackle to the shackle on the hound.

Seems like there's various opinions on how to accomplish the same thing, so let me share mine. Now, Ive mentioned this before but no one commented on it, so I'll try again. On my boat, the trapeze thimbles are too small to fit the big shackle that supports the shrouds and fore stay. So I put the shackle pin through the thimbles of the trapeze wires. Might be hard to visualize at first, but what you do is this; Put your shrouds and fore stay on the body of the shackle, stick the pin through one side of the shackle, then through the the thimble of one of the trapeze wires, then through the hole in the mast hounds, then through the other trap wire thimble, then screw the pin down to the other side of the shackle and don't forget add your seizing wire. When sailing, the mast will be rotated to the windward side and the load on the trap wire will be a nice straight pull without rubbing on anything. I've been doing it this way for many years, single and double trapezing. If someone out there can see something bad about to happen with this method please let me know.

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Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
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That's a clean set up, the thimbles act as washers, centering the hound plate on the pin. I don't remember now but I think I have that on the trap wires but on the upper hole of the mast hound, separate from the forestay and shrouds. If I understand correctly, ctcatman has a second hole on his mast hound too ("My trap lines are connected above the stays with a shackle"), that could be a solution, if the cause of his problem is related to that.

If we are talking about twisted shackles or thimbles, in my experience there is a much higher probability that this happens when raising the mast, which can be potentially dangerous. I don't see it happening much with the mast up, unless the additional shackle is clearly interfering with other wires.

Without getting into the mast hound debate (H16s have had three holes since the 80's!)...

What shock cord are you using? If some goes through the beam you may not have much choice on diameter. My good quality marine grade 1/4" stuff ain't cheap, but it works well. It can be tightened pretty dang snug when not in use and still have plenty of stretch for trapping out. It also holds up well to sun and use. I use the small ferule hooks on one side for a cheap failure point when needed and a beefier hook on the other side (stopper knot can easily be moved to take up slack as cord stretches). That said, if the jib halyard unintentionally loosens, they go slack and it drives me nuts. Ditto if I rake the mast back for big wind...I just live with it.



Edited by rattlenhum on Sep 22, 2023 - 10:49 AM.

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Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
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There's no debate. Although this, strictly speaking, is true:

klozhald

More holes in anything makes the part weaker

it's not a meaningful factor because the hounds in question are already ridiculously overspec'ed. A little stub of 18-8 that's 1/8"-1/4" thick? Please. Bending (or breaking) that will take thousands, not hundreds, of pounds. I snapped a mast by overloading the trapeze without damaging the hound.

Actually, another way of looking at the load/stress problem is that every available hole should be used because that distributes the load across the member rather than concentrating it on one spot.

I would be more concerned with the possible"weak link" in the chain. It certainly wouldn't be the mast hounds themselves.

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Bill Townsend
G-Cat 5.0
Sarasota
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Exactly - in my case, the mast! The original Mystere mast didn't come with spreaders and diamond wires, and I went ahead and added the second trapeze without considering what the weak link would be when two guys around 200 lbs. each were really pushing it.

Hey, it was my first cat. How you gonna learn otherwise?

klozhald

There should be one big shackle where the stays attach to the mast (mast hound). From port to starboard there should be:

1. Port trapeze line, single or double, by a thimble - NOT another shackle
2. Port side stay by a thimble
3. Forestay through a thimble
4. Starboard side stay by a thimble
5. Starboard trapeze line, single or double, by a thimble - NOT another shackle

Any additional shackles in this area are bound to get bound up and should be eliminated.

Not necessarily... My Nacras and early Prindles had everything on one shackle. My Nader has the trap wires on a 1/4" bow shackle above the standing rigging shackle. It keeps the trap wires from getting hooked under the shroud and giving you that lovely "pop" when it releases. On my modified 18-2, I have the trap lines about a foot above the forestay hound. Never an issue of them tangling and wrapping. But, when we raced the Naders in the 90s, we would have long D-shackles attached to the swage eye on the shrouds and then to the relatively large bow shackle. Of course, we would decrease the size of the bow shackle because one doesn't need that big of shackle if fittings are streamlined.

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Scott

Prindle Fleet 2
TCDYC

Prindle 18-2 Mod "FrankenKitty"
Tornado Classic "Fast Furniture"
Prindle 19 "Mr. Wiggly"
Nacra 5.8 "De ja vu"
Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.8
Tornadoes (Reg White)
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