Does anyone know if there is adjustment for rudder release on the pridle 16. It has dual springs (one on each side of the rudder)that are the tensioners to the rudder release pin/screw. The problem I see here is when the rudders are raised, the springs are under constant load, stretching the springs and decreasing the the ability to hold the rudders locked in at speed. Any suggestions?
Jim
Prindle 16 rudder adjustment
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Posted: Jun 08, 2009 - 10:23 AM
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Posted: Jun 08, 2009 - 11:54 AM
The springs are not the adjustment. The stainless steel cam is the part that needs to be adjusted, by moving it in or out as needed. First loosen the nut on the outside of the cam, then put a screw driver or something in the hole where the half moon washer and nut are and turn the cam to loosen the nut. Then you can move the cam in or out to adjust. Retighten and make sure the cam is lined up properly and put the rudder in the lock down position. It is easiest to do if the boat is on a trailer or cat trax, as it may take 2 or 3 times to get it where you like. It should require some pressure to pull the rudder up by hand so it stays down while sailing but not too much as you want it to kick up when hitting the beach. -
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Posted: Jun 08, 2009 - 01:02 PM
Hullflyer do you pull up your rudders by hand before you hit the beach, or Do you let them kick up by themselves? -
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Posted: Jun 08, 2009 - 01:39 PM
I normally let them kick up when I hit the beach. You can lift them up before but it takes some practice and its not real easy to do. You have to face aft and pull hard on the pull up line and then pull again and hold and moving through the water helps the rudder to the up position. When I raced P-16's we would raise the windward rudder in real light conditions, not sure if it really helped, but it looked like we knew what we were doing. In the previous post when I said it would require some pressure to unlock the rudder I meant grabbing the rudder by hand on the bottom and jerking it until it released, not by using the pull up line. -
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Posted: Jun 08, 2009 - 04:24 PM
Hullflyer, that stainless steel cam adjustment is for weather helm. (just looked at the PDF owner manual) I need the rudders to stay down. I see no mention of rudder kick up tension. The only way I see to adjust, is to purchase new springs. They are very specific springs and any-old-spring will not do. They have to be a specific length, diam, strength and the loop ends of the springs have to be off to the side of the spring, not the center. I have made a low tech approach to fixing the problem. I will test it as soon as I can get out and sail again.
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Posted: Jun 08, 2009 - 04:39 PM
i think this is what he is talking about!
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Posted: Jun 08, 2009 - 06:43 PM
Yup, Screwin g in or out adjusts the rake. I put two small hose clamps around 3/4 of the two springs to force them to tighten. This definitely helps but doesn't seem to be enough to keep the rudder in at high speed. Two possible solutions: 1) the pin that part hooks to, turns when the rudder gets pulled out. Not allowing it to turn may make much harder for it to come out. 2)as a last resort possibly file out a little material at the base of the catch area of the pin. This would allow it to seat better. -
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Posted: Jun 09, 2009 - 07:13 AM
I promise you what I said will take care of the rudder problem (just try it) unless the part is completely worn out. I bought my first P-16 in 1977 and have owned several new P-16 P-18 P-18/2 P-19 and they all have the same rudder system. I have adjusted my own rudders and have helped several others in the past 30 years. The rudder has only 1 pivot point, so if you think about what happens if you screw the cam in or out, you will understand. Also do no overtighten the nut and bolt that hold the springs in place, as they have to be able to move to work properly.
The photo Kinlawk posted is the exact part that I am talking about adjusting, that is why is has threads. To futher help the rudders you need to take all of the slop out of the system. Start by putting spacers between the rudders and the castings then raise the rudder to the up position and tighten the pivot bolt so the rudder stays up, and then back off the nut just until the rudder drops, then make sure that there is no slop where the tiller connector bar joins with the rudder casting arms, and finally make sure that the tiller (hiking stick) connection has no slop. Put the rudders down and measure up 22 inches from the bottom and make a mark on both the leading and trailing edges. Measure the distance between the leading edges and then the trailing edges, adjust until they are the same. Hobies like 1/4 inch toe in but I find that Prindles run best if they have no toe in.
Seriously, I have owned and sailed Prindles over 30 years and have helped many sailors with the exact problem. -
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Posted: Jun 09, 2009 - 12:38 PM
Hullflyer is right on the mark.
I've never had to play with or replace my springs...my P16 is 1976.
I find adjusting the lock bolt always fixes the kick up.
If you're still having trouble may be you need to replace the lock bolt.
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Posted: Aug 19, 2012 - 09:43 AM
OK, to revisit this issue. I had problems with my rudders releasing while underway and not holding when locked in. Most of the hardware was pretty worn so I desided to replace all of it. I got all the new hardware installed yesterday and now there is less tension than before
I noticed that the new cam bolts, (see kinlawk's pic) were longer than the old ones by about 1/4". With that in play, with the new bolts fully inserted they extended about 1" from the rudder. My question is, which direction does what, ie does extending the bolt increase or decrease the rudder release tension? If I need to screw the bolt in further, I will have to shorten them a bit and that is possible but I don't want to do so unless I need to.
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Mike Brady
Sugar Land, TX
Sailing off Magnolia Beach in Lavaca Bay TX
http://358degrees.blogspot.com/
P16 "Pooh Cat"
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Posted: Aug 19, 2012 - 11:08 AM
Shortening the lock-down bolt by screwing it in will increase the lock-down force on the locking pin located inside the rudder casting, if the locking bolt is 1/4 longer as you describe, it may impede/prevent you from acquiring the lock-down force needed. In that case, you will have to cut the bolt shorter, but screw the lock-nut on 1st, cut the bolt, then screw nut off. I am refurbishing a P16 right now and when I get to the rudders will take pics of rudder adjustment, but they are exactly the same as the P18 I had and I got those dialed in replacing only the sheaves for the rudder lines as they were deteriorated.
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Posted: Aug 19, 2012 - 02:14 PM
You are right that adjusting the bolt does adjust th rake for weather helm, however raking the rudders further forward also makes rudders harder to kickup.
Hard to kickup also can mean harder to lock in. Mine take a retry good pull to lock in. It usually works best if they are up so the force of pulling them down can really knock em in. My boys usually do not do this hard enough so hte rudder comes up like it kicked up only the problem is it was never locked in o begin with.
If you worried pring go ahead nd replace them they are reativley cheap at Murray's. About $4 last time I checked.
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Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
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Posted: Aug 20, 2012 - 04:37 PM
I had this problem too. I can also verify that what's said above is correct, make sure the springs are loose enough to actually move up and down (loosening the tension on the lock-bolt) Basically if the rake is adjusted so that the rudder bottom is pointed back/aft then pulling it up using the lines will be easier, because it is already at an angle towards swinging up. If the rudder bottom(end) is raked so far foward (The bolt is very tight/short/screwed in) then the rudder is on the other side of a straight up & down axis, so when its lines are pulled, it probably has to be pursuaded to swing back/aft and up (meaning it's very hard to unlock, and you'll probably have to lean over the rudder, reach into the water and knock it up to get started).
I ordered a new lock-bolt ($35) and springs but they shipped too slow before a sailing trip. Nothing showed by the time I had to leave, so I ended up using "Water Weld" from Home Depot ($8..amazing stuff), basically gobbed some on the worn out end/hook of the bolt (Because it was worn out, the rudder would gradually unlock and move itself up while sailing in chop or through seaweed) So I used a toothpick and flat head screw driver to shape the water weld material at the end of the bolt, 30 minutes later it was rock hard and has worked ever since. Of course when I got home a week later the new bolt arrived and now it's just an expensive extra piece in my parts box. The springs were "on back order" so I cancelled the order, I think no matter how old they are, the stiffer the better, as long as the nuts/screws through the casting still allow the springs to move up and down.
For me, unlocking the rudders takes pulling both of the lines really hard at the same time for a few repititions. I probably look like I'm trying to start a lawnmower. But this will shake the springs and bolt enough to get it unlocked, then usually I need to reach down and lift the rudder up while pulling the up-line. Luckily (only for this scenario) I usually sail into docks, not beaches, so speed isn't required to get this done right, as the P16 is tied to the dock with the sail dropped by the time I swing the rudders out of the water. For beaching, I usually would pull the lines a few times and try to unlock them, but otherwise wait for them to kick-up on their own if I had to pay attention to where I was going and couldn't waste more time on the rudders.
If I can't get the unlock/locking perfect, and I had to choose between having them strongly locked down while sailing or having them loose enough to swing up easily, I would choose for them to be strongly locked down, really hard to swing up. It was really annoying when the lock-bolt was worn out so even though the rudder was easy to bring up whenever I wanted, I had to stop while sailing along every 5 - 10 minutes, turn downwind and push the rudder back down because friction would swing it up, you notice this immediately because it gets hard to steer.
I think the manual says to start by adjusting the helm so the rudders are parallel to the transom, using a yard-stick to get it right. I think the best thing would be to get the helm to that point of parallel, and then play with the tightness of the spring bolts and other internal pieces before drastically moving the lock-bolt in or out, and see if you can lock and unlock it comfortably with other adjustments.
If your bolt is worn out, I swear by that waterweld stuff as a cheap fix. It's a 5" tube that looks a little like sidewalk chalk, and you can cut a little piece, mold it and after a few minutes it's as hard as cement, and it can be filed to form if you added too much. I guess plumbers use it because it even hardens when the surface is wet. I filled some cracks near the gudgeons with it too, no more leaks, not even a drop.
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Redondo Beach, CA
'80 Prindle 16.
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Posted: Aug 21, 2012 - 09:12 AM
After checking, I found out that only one of my rudders did not want to let the new cam bolts seat fully and a minor tune up with a drill solved that issue. Once I was able to get the bolts screwed in further the lock tension responded much better. I will do the alignment for weather helm this weekend but having better locking force is encouraging. Thanks to all for the information!
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Mike Brady
Sugar Land, TX
Sailing off Magnolia Beach in Lavaca Bay TX
http://358degrees.blogspot.com/
P16 "Pooh Cat"
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Posted: Aug 21, 2012 - 12:44 PM
Just to summarize/pile on: The cam screw adjusts both rudder rake and release force. The rake part is obvious. The release force changes becuase the angle of the cam screw ramp that holds on the spring loaded bar changes as you screw it in and out. If you screw the cam out (make it stick out more from the rudder), it catches the bar earlier as it rotates down so the ramp has more angle for the spring loaded bar to slide off of it. It you tighten the screw in, the ramp is steeper and harder for the spring loaded bar to slide off of it.
This makes it so you have to balance between rudder rake/weather or lee helm and kick up force.
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John Fricker
Prindle 16
Seabrook, Texas
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Posted: Sep 04, 2012 - 04:37 PM
I've been fiddling with my rudder release mechanism, and frankly, it seems dumb that the adjustment does both release force and steering helm. I have a slight lee helm that I don't like, but the release force is already pretty weak, and will get weaker if extend the cam screw out of the rudder further to get rid of the lee helm. I didn't use a force gauge but I estimate it takes less than 5 lbs pull at the bottom of the rudder to release it, which is less than I like. The cam screw looks fine (not bent), so maybe I'll try grinding the angle on the cam steeper.
What's the release force of your Prindle rudder? What should it be so it doesn't kickup at hig speeds?
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John Fricker
Prindle 16
Seabrook, Texas
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Posted: Sep 04, 2012 - 08:55 PM
The Prindle is not known for mast rake like the Hobie, rule of thumb is "the more you rake the mast back, the more you rake the rudders forward", most Prindles do well with the mast straight up so don't worry about raking the rudders, just set your break-away force using the locking bolt. Once you have that set, check your rudders for alignment, are they toe in/out? The Prindle manual has a section on setting the alignment
http://www.thebeachcats.c…ictures/?g2_itemId=75867
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Posted: Sep 04, 2012 - 09:32 PM
I have been struggling a bit with mine on my p18 of late as well. I have them all the way in and this good when testing on dry land but not so much when sailing. If I back them one turn out then they are to loose and come up to easily when sailing.
As they are now the problem seems to be no that they kick up but that they are never getting fully locked in so they begin to come up at speed. Though mostly they only seem to come out a little but it is enough to make the helm too much to hold a course.
I sail quite often off a very shallow shore line so I have to get out a ways before I can really lock them in. I have to have them down some though so I can maneuver. This makes them mostly down but not locked when I get deep enough and leaves very little leverage to them locked. If I can on the windward side I pull it up and try to quickly slam it back down to lock and this sometimes works. This can be hard to do on the leeward side depending on conditions and my crew is usually one of boys and they don't have the strength to pull up by rope alone.
I have new springs and bolts (not the hooked bolt) but all the other parts are original. I think I will have to pull the entire hook bolt out and take a good look. They don't look bent at all to me but who knows.
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Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
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Posted: Sep 05, 2012 - 12:15 PM
In an effort to help resolve issues with the Prindle rudder locking mechanism, I have created an album in the Technical Help section, I hope these close up pics can help all those Prindle sailors out there with steering problems. The difference between a GREAT day of sailing and a miserable day can be your rudders, get them dialed in and sail it like you stole it.......
http://www.thebeachcats.c…ictures/?g2_itemId=89541
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Posted: Sep 05, 2012 - 03:03 PM
Wow! very good pictures and directions. It took me a while this weekend, but I got the release tension up to a reasonable level. Should have cured my weather helm issues also. I agree that it is a pain that the two adjustments are related. Can't see any way around it other than to shim the rudder mounts once you have the release tension you need. Not sure I would want to go there so I hope I am happy with the way it sails now.
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Mike Brady
Sugar Land, TX
Sailing off Magnolia Beach in Lavaca Bay TX
http://358degrees.blogspot.com/
P16 "Pooh Cat"
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