Hi Guys,
I'm sorry if this post is a retread of old stuff. I've tried to do my homework but I guess I still want the benefit of others' experience. So I figure the best way to do this is to tell you what I'm planning and hope if anyone sees a huge flaw they'll set me straight.
I used to own a Catalina 25, sailed to Catalina and the Channel Islands. Last year I bought a crappy old H16 so I could teach my kids to sail and after fooling around in Mission Bay for the summer couldn't believe how much fun it was. So now I want to get a real cat. Here are my considerations.
- I'm a big guy (about 230 right now but on my way back down to around 200 eventually) so I need something that will sail okay when I take crew (it doesn't have to be a bullet, but I rather not submarine).
- I'll be singlehanding most of the time (wife likes sailing but hates to be uncomfortable and wet) so it shouldn't be overly complex. Additionally, I need to be able to right it myself (I'm a little worried that this one might eliminate some of the boats I'm interested in).
- I'll be sailing mostly offshore (Dana Point, usually mild chop, sometimes a bit bigger) so I'd like something that isn't prone to catching a bow.
- I'll be keeping it in mast-up storage most of the year so it doesn't have to be the easiest set-up, but I will probably need to do it myself now and then.
- I'd like parts to be relatively available and reasonable in price.
- I'd eventually like to race, but if I have to I'll move up to a different boat later on.
The boats I'm most interested in are the Nacra 5.5 (I'd prefer the SL), the Hobie 18, and the Nacra 5.2 (I really like the idea of a boomless sail when out solo).
Aside from possible price issues (the N5.5 might be hard to find at a price I can afford), does anyone see any huge issues I'm not considering here, or things I've gotten wrong?
Thanks for your help.
Want to singlehand off Dana Point
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Posted: Jun 08, 2009 - 10:07 PM
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Posted: Jun 08, 2009 - 10:41 PM
Hi Bob,
If you are considering a 5.5 I would go with the Uni and convert it to an SL if you feel the need. I don't think the carbon mast is class legal for the SL, but is for the Uni. The carbon mast is much easier to step and makes it easier to right when you are sailing solo. When your wife comes along, sail it like a F18 HT. Control lines are pretty simple - downhaul, mast rotator, main sheet and traveller.
The 5.5 is still competitive as a single handed race boat.
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Posted: Jun 09, 2009 - 09:45 AM
Bob, here is a thread that discusses different cats and their benefits -
http://www.thebeachcats.c…ewtopic-topic-11064.html -
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Posted: Jun 09, 2009 - 11:11 AM
Solo righting a H18 may be a challenge. I haven't tried before, but it takes a little work with 2 people. If you get the H18 I would recommend the wings, either Magnum or SX style. Gives you more leverage for solo sailing and more comfortable. Also might help the wife since you do not get as wet and she is not sitting on the jib blocks or track. Solo sailing I would also get a mast float (Hobie Bob) to keep you from turtling. I don't have any experience with the Nacras.
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Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
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Posted: Jun 09, 2009 - 11:39 AM
solo righting an h18 is almost impossible without the aid of a bag or pole (or helecopter) -
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Posted: Jun 09, 2009 - 01:20 PM
(Apologies to all if this is a duplicate post)
Rich,
Thanks for your response. I've read many of your posts here and, along with other pages I've read that compare the boats, they are a big part of the reason I'm interested in the 5.5.
I have a couple of questions if that's okay.
- I'd assumed that converting a Uni would be more expensive than just getting the boat as an SL. Is this not the case?
- Also, is the conversion easily removed for sailing as a Uni?
- Is my assumption correct that even though we tend toward lighter air in this area (Dana Point) the single main will still be enough horsepower when I'm solo (even though I aint no lightweight)?
- Is there an active class in this area?
- I don't have enough experience with cats to understand your point about sailing like an F18 HT. Can you explain?
Thanks for the tip about the carbon spar. That's an important consideration for me and pretty much swings my opinion back to the Uni.
Thanks again for your help. -
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Posted: Jun 09, 2009 - 01:22 PM
So I should have my wife fire up the chopper and stand by then?
(Thanks for the link to the other thread. I'll check it out.) -
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Posted: Jun 09, 2009 - 01:30 PM
Scott,
Thanks for the tips. Do you know if the wings slow the boat significantly, and do they make it a lot heavier to roll across the beach? (Not a big consideration for me but just trying to anticipate.) Also, are they easily removed?
The mast float is probably the smart way to go. It's just so ugly. Oh well, better unattractive than underwater.
Thanks again. -
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Posted: Jun 09, 2009 - 03:18 PM
The wings are not all that heavy. they make moving a cat actually a little easier because you have new places to grab the boat. yes they have to add 20 lbs... or so. I am sure others will pipe in with the exact weight.
i think they are bolted on but can pivot inward for trailering them home.
they don't kill your performance, but they don't help.
mast floats are good if you are not sailing with crew/friends/limited experience. also be sure to seal up any rivets/small holes/large holes on the mast to help reduce water getting in it WHEN you capsize. -
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Posted: Jun 09, 2009 - 04:16 PM
I am 215lbs and solo a 5.7. When it is 10 and gusting to 15+ I can deal with it easily, but would not mind a second person to make the sudden gusts a little more dampened. It is indeed true that one man cannot right a cat this size without a poll and a bag, the rougher the water the harder it is to get it up alone. Wave intervals tend to slap it back down. The max wind I have managed alone is 23 knts. Things happen quick.
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Posted: Jun 09, 2009 - 06:07 PM
[quote=RLC]
Do you know if the wings slow the boat significantly, and do they make it a lot heavier to roll across the beach? (Not a big consideration for me but just trying to anticipate.) Also, are they easily removed?
quote]
I will agree with andrew maybe 20-25lbs total for both wings. The two styles also must weigh slightly different. Very easy to remove, 2 nuts and 2 pins per side for me. The SX wings have another pin I think. Once you pull the pins they can easily be trailered while still attached, however for mast up storage you have to leave them down for the most part due to the side shrouds.
Yes the added weight will slow you down a little, but that weight is not my biggest problem
They are also a lot of fun to trap off of, gets you out off the boat and above the water.
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Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
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Posted: Jun 09, 2009 - 08:11 PM
Deepsees - Your experience speaks directly to my concerns. My first thought is "Well, why doesn't everyone just carry a righting bag?", but never having used one I don't know the downsides (which I suppose are possible to imagine, beginning with having to carry and stow extra gear).
I remember something about a bigger cat (Firebird?) that was righted easily by releasing a shroud. Does anyone know if any of the beach cat manufacturers have tried something similar?
Andrew and Scott - Thanks for the info on the wings. They actually seem like a good idea. Problem for me is the idea of having to leave them down when in storage (might have to pay extra for more width). Do you know if it's possible to secure them in the halfway position, lying against the shrouds, when stored? -
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Posted: Jun 09, 2009 - 08:15 PM
Hi Bob,
I'm not really familiar with California or ocean sailing. I grew up on the great lakes and am limited to a 30,000 acre lake in Texas. Most areas that I have lived have had huge condition variances and I generally try to get out when the wind is stronger and the drunk guys in powerboats are docked.
A 5.5 SL will be cheaper than a Uni that you convert to an SL. The main parts that you need are:
- Bridle and bridle wires
- Twin trapeze
- Jib
- Tramp - with jib sheet block attachment points
- Blocks and lines
This isn't exactly cheap, but it significantly cheaper than a carbon spar which used to be a $5000 option from the factory and from what I have heard, the price has gone up.
If I were looking for more speed I would go for a chute before I considered the conversion to an SL and if I didn't solo all the time, I would have gone for the Nacra 5.8 since it is cheaper and faster (heavier to move around the beach and tougher to right).
The SL can actually be raced without the jib as a class legal Uni, but normally is handicapped against a Uni rig with the carbon mast. Converting back to uni is as easy as taking the jib off and replacing the front stay (optional).
You have 50 lbs on me, so you will find the boat a little different in some conditions. Anything above 15 knots and I am looking for ways to take power out of the sail. I have also sailed two up (about 320 lbs) in 10 knots and not really noticed the extra weight. I wouldn't want to race with the extra weight, but for recreational sailing I don't see a problem. The boat will fly a hull easily when two up in 10 knots. The uni also seems to compare favorably to the SL in lighter wind conditions. The handicap difference increases with beaufort # and I am guessing that this is due to the additional weight of the crew allowing you to push the SL more in heavy conditions.
The F18 HT is supposed to be the fastest 18 foot cat available. The portsmouth rating is very similar to a Formula 20. It consists of a huge uni rig (36 foot mast) and spinnaker. It is sailed by a two person crew where the skipper is responsible for the traveller and the crew is responsible for the mainsheet, downhaul, spinnaker, mast rotator.
Sorry for the novel, it didn't seem like a lot while I was typing it.
edited by: rpiper138, Jun 09, 2009 - 07:19 PM -
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Posted: Jun 10, 2009 - 10:17 AM
I have not found a good way to store my wings up. I suppose you could make a support to hold the wings up part way. They do then catch wind easier which would not be good. I store mine at the end of a row of boats so I can hang out past the end a little, but don't really block anything. Haven't had complaints yet, but if I had boats on either side I would not fit well and wouldn't want to do that to my neighbors.
The SuperCat 20 has shroud extenders to help get the boat back up. Makes a huge difference with the 12 foot beam of the boat. Gets the hulls back almost vertical with the mast still in the water. However the mast base is different, the mast is captive on a ball so it could not pop out when you lengthen the shrouds. I think a H16 or H18 mast could pop off the base if you tired it with them. Not sure if the SC17 has a similar system or not. Harder to find but might meet your needs other then readily available parts.
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Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
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Posted: Jun 10, 2009 - 11:45 AM
Bob,
If you have mast up storage then you should be able to just fold the wings up and secure them. I've never done this with the mast up so I'm not sure if the wings hit the mast or not. Make sure they aren't rubbing on anything. You can probably make a modified version of my Hobie 18 pvc wing support for mast up storage.
Whatever you decide to do, make sure you take pictures and post them here!
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Damon Linkous
1992 Hobie 18
Memphis, TN
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Posted: Jun 10, 2009 - 01:08 PM
Bob,
Are you looking at wings for comfort or performance?
If the wings are just there to give you extra width on the trap, just get a wider boat.
Since you are doing mast up storage, extra beam shouldn't make too big a difference to you. Ever consider an 18m2?
They are a little more difficult to right, but lots of fun. -
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Posted: Jun 10, 2009 - 01:49 PM
Damon,
I have not seen a good mast up storage solution for wings. As you fold the wings up you hit the side shrouds. I tried the tie mine to the shrouds, but the wind would rock the mast back and forth a little and it started to rub between the shroud and wing tramp. I have seen PVC pipe insulation as padding, but haven't really liked that solution. If someone has a good mast up solution I would love to see it.
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Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
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Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 07:40 PM
Well, I'm not really sure how this happened. One minute I was reading all the great information here (I really appreciate everyone's advice, including the ideas about how to stow the H18 wings) and fully intending to look for an H18 Magnum or SX (I've never seen a N5.5 available in my area) - and the next minute there's a boat in my driveway.
I suspect a lot of you have had a similar experience. I happened to see a N5.2 ad on craigslist that looked good, a decent boat for pretty cheap, checked it out and before I knew it it had followed me home.
I guess now I'll be asking questions about fixing up a 5.2 (lots of little things but nothing major as far as I can see).
Thanks again everyone for all the help. I'm sure I'll be hanging out here a good bit in the future. -
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Posted: Jun 11, 2009 - 09:49 PM
Enjoy the 5.2 Bob. They are a nice boat. -
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Posted: Jun 12, 2009 - 10:03 AM
Happy to hear you found a boat. Enjoy it.
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Scott,
‘92 H18 w/SX wings
‘95 Hobie Funseeker 12 (Holder 12)
‘96/‘01/‘14 Hobie Waves
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