I seem to be having a problem when under heavier winds with my rudders coming up when under way. I have read post on this or similar topics before but did not really understand all that was said so maybe I need it to be dumbed down a a bit or something.
I don't seem to have problems at lower speeds. It primarily seems to affect the leeward rudder the most. Under higher speeds it seems like it is almost impossible to keep the rudder locked down. This of course makes steering very difficult. One quick trip out and in about 15 min just about did my arm in trying to hold a course.
I admit that I have done nothing to the rudder setup myself other than restringing the rudder lines. It could just be that I need to replace the the springs. The hooked connecting pins do not seem to be overly worn. There is some rust but nothing major.
I will defiantly consider just rebuilding all the internal rudder parts but even then I will need help on how to adjust afterwards for desired effect. I don't get on the water as much as many of you so it's hard to just adjust and test and adjust and test. I need to try to get it as right as possible the first time.
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Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
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Prindle 18 Rudder Kickup
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Posted: Sep 09, 2009 - 12:48 AM
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Posted: Sep 09, 2009 - 04:26 AM
The bolt which the lock bolt hooks into might be bent, so the hook no longer engages properly. Remove and straighten bolt, or replace it.
Worn lock bolt. Replace, or some filing might help. Don't overdo it; changing the angle only by 1 degree will have an effect.
Fatigue of the springs, as you suspected. Replace, or compress them in a vise.
One of the lock jam nuts might be loose, and the continuous tearing might have made the hole bigger; the lock bolt wobbles and no longer engages properly. Fiberglass the hole and redrill.
On my P18-2, it is all of the above...
HTH,
Dan
edited by: catdan, Sep 09, 2009 - 03:26 AM -
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Posted: Sep 09, 2009 - 06:21 AM
You never mentioned adjusting the rudder locking mech. This is normally the problem and it can be adjusted on shore and and tested on shore as well. -
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Posted: Sep 09, 2009 - 08:06 AM
I pretty sure it's only helm adjustment, but no adjustment for release pressure. Nothing mentioned in the P18 19 manual either.
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Posted: Sep 09, 2009 - 09:07 AM
Put a milk crate under the hull on land so that rudder can swing down without touching ground. Tools needed are screw driver, 7/16 & 9/16 wrenches. Jam screw driver into hole in rudder to lock inner 9/16 nut. Loosen outer 9/16 nut & turn hook INTO rudder one 360 turn. Tighten outer 9/16 nut & pull out screwdriver. Slam rudder into casting & it should clunk in fairly firm. Usually takes two hands on bottom of rudder to pull it out firmly. Turn hook opposite way if rudder is locking too tightly. Rudder springs are only $5, so replace if necessary. Pete -
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Posted: Sep 09, 2009 - 11:50 AM
I seem to be having the opposite problem...in that my rudders were "popping out" too easily. So, I made the adjustment and brought the cupped/hand/bolt on the rudder inwards...or closer to the rudder itself. Now, I have it in too much (I guess) because I it takes too much arm strength to get to pop back out. I am going to loosen the nuts and move the bolt/cupped hand thing away from the rudder to try to ease the tight grip the pin on the spring loaded mechanism.
Don't ya all love it when a Newbie uses incorrect terms for all of the "thingys" and "gadgets" that are on the floating-sailing thing I take out onto the lake??
edited by: TileMan5309, Sep 09, 2009 - 08:50 AM -
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Posted: Sep 09, 2009 - 12:02 PM
Thanks Pete and everyone else. I will try that and am probably going to at least get springs and probably rebuild the guts over winter.
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Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
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Posted: Sep 09, 2009 - 01:43 PM
Wow, OK not be come across as a know it all but it sounds to me like there is some confusion here. The adjustable locking bolt that I believe everyone is referring to here has nothing to do with how hard or easy it is to lock/release the rudders on a Prindle Cat. The adjustments you are referring to, change how the tiller responds to movement by the skipper. By adjusting the angle of the rudders and the rake of the mast, you change how much force you need in order to change the direction of the boat (i.e. weather helm). If your rudders are kicking up to easily or they are to hard to latch, then you are dealing with a hardware issue. Most likely a bent bolt. If you want to feel what I am talking about with the adjustment, rake the mast up so that it is almost perpendicular to the cross bar and adjust the rudder lock bolts so that they are as close to the boat as possible and go sailing. You will feel like the boat is pulling really hard into the wind, and may even feel like it is out of control. -
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Posted: Sep 09, 2009 - 03:23 PM
Weather helm is all I had out there and but it was from the rudder not staying down. Kicked up isn't really right either as Prindle rudders don't really kick up as in all the way unless you pull them up and lock them in but you guys know that I guess. They stay in a lower speeds just fine and steering is great in fact. I had some higher winds the night before without to much trouble but we had 2 ft waves and were just trying to get back to camp and were not pushing for speed but the next day in about the same winds I took a short jaunt out with a more experienced Nacra skipper and the leeward mostly rudder would not stay down for more than a minute. I am not sure what all the aqua dynamics are and where the strain and such would be, but something put enough pressure on it in those conditions to keep it from staying locked in and bear to steer.
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Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
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Posted: Sep 09, 2009 - 08:30 PM
If the rudder suddenly kicks up, it's almost impossible to hold it. That is with some too strong weather helm as I had with my cat. (The mast rake adjusted in the meantime). In fact, we almost hit a freight vessel when that happened.
Adam is right; there is no adjustment on Prindles for lock/release pressure. My best guess it's a bent bolt. The straight one into which the lock bolt locks into.
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Posted: Sep 09, 2009 - 09:54 PM
Sorry, Adam & Dan are misinformed. If you will simply put milk crate under hull and make adjustments, you will see rudder locking very easily or very firmly. Pete -
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Posted: Sep 10, 2009 - 12:13 AM
I have to agree with Pete...the difference between my rudders popping out of the down position with only a finger pull and me having to really yank on them with my arm strength was changed by me just moving that bolt in the rudders in and out. Although you may think you are adjusting the rake in the rudders....I am pretty sure that the adjustment of this bolt is mostly for "release pressure." -
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Posted: Sep 10, 2009 - 12:40 AM
Thank you all again. Now I have to put the rudders back on in the driveway and test it out. If I get it on the trailer just right I can put them down all the way.
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Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
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Posted: Sep 10, 2009 - 07:22 AM
I'm more than happy to learn this does the lock/release adjustment. However, the manual on page 12 does not mention it. Instead it says moving the lock bolt in and out is for "helm adjustment".
Dan -
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Posted: Sep 10, 2009 - 10:45 AM
i had the same problem. the latches get bent and or worn as well as the 1/4" s steel bolts. i replaced all nuts, washers, and bolts on the rudders(grade 3 stainless steele only!) as well as new latches. new latches from prindle are 30 bucks a piece and when i did it they were on back order. i soon discover that i found the same length and thread on a carriage bolt that i ground with my 4" grinder to the same shape. within 15 minutes a piece i made the new ones. now make sure to leave some "meat" on the new latches so you can adjust the amount of tension it takes to release them. this is done with a flat file(which is also how you adjust the factory ones). this can easily be done in your driveway with a total cost of hardware of under 20 bucks and a couple of hours. if you buy the latches from prindle you still may have to file them to desired action but do so only after you have adjusted the rake of the rudders(see prindle owners manual for proper setting). hope this helps, bill
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bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
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Posted: Sep 10, 2009 - 11:17 PM
I agree that the manual does talk about this bolt adjustment being meant for helm adjust...but, as you adjust the rudders out, away from the hulls, you are indeed changing the angle of the bolt as it contacts the spring loaded pin. So, even though this adjustment is meant for helm, it also directly affects the amount of "grip" that this bolt head has at the same time.
Consider the dead horse thoroughly beaten! -
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Posted: Sep 11, 2009 - 04:14 PM
dustin, when you put the new hardware in, adjust the helm according to the manual first. if the new rudder lock bolt won't release easy enough then take a flat file and take off a little at a time until you like it. don't take off too much or you will need a new lock bolt again. the boat is much easier and faster to sail with a balanced helm. you may even wait to file anything until you get her in the water. i just did the same thing to my p16 over the past 2 weeks with much success. good luck, bill
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bill harris
hattiesburg, mississippi
prindle 16- "BLUE RIBBON"
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Posted: Sep 28, 2009 - 03:15 PM
Just to update I adjusted as Pete suggested without changing any parts yet, and it made a whole world of difference. I actually did the starboard side a little to tight the first try while I was still on the trailer and I was worried for a minute I wasn't going to get the rudder back up again but I finally got and turned it back a bit.
Had a great day sailing at Pineview Res by Huntsville, UT. Couple of my kids got to go out on a friends F18 and they had a blast trapping. My youngest tried trapping on mine until I dunked him. Wind was pretty good probably not quite as much as last time but not a single rudder kickup problem at all.
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Dustin Finlinson • Magna, UT
Member: Utah Sailing Association
1982 Prindle 18
1986 Hobie 17
1982 Prindle 16
1980 Prindle 16(mostly)
1976 Prindle 16(mostly)
Check out "Prindle Sailors" on Facebook.
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Posted: Sep 28, 2009 - 05:07 PM
I had a lot of problems with rudders kicking out too. My headaches are gone due to a modification I did to my catamaran. I put the rudder down to the desired position and drilled a 1/4" hole through the gungeon (spelling?) bracket and the rudder. I then took a 1/4" stainless locking pin and push it though. Later I bought some galvanized cable inserted it into the pre drilled hole in the pin and made a loop of about 3-4" in diameter, then ran the remainder of the cable up to the rudder arm and went around it and crimped it there too. So now I sail the cat out to water that poses no risk of hitting anything, and push the rudder down and insert the pin. When comining into the shallows I just reach over, put my fingers through the loop and pop out the pin. (the pin hangs from the rudder arm)It works amazingly well. I did it on my hobie too, but it doesn't work as well on the hobie. When leaning over on the hobie the hole is deeper under water than the prindle due to the hull design. I did this modification not just because of rudder pop up, but for multiple reasons. Rudders were hard to pull down with the rope. Hard to pop out with rope, the lock up position wasn't high enough to keep them out of the water ect, ect.
When I moor the cat, I lift the rudder all the way up and insert the pin, the rudder rests on the pin high and dry.
I got so frustrated with hobie and prindles rudder design. It is a product of over design. Nacra and solcat never seem to have these problems.
Now knowing this, the cat is at risk of hitting something and doing damage to it if your not careful or forget. This winter I am going to test aluminum tubing and even plastic rods to insert into the holes to find the desired break away. -
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Posted: Sep 28, 2009 - 10:40 PM
Hey man you stole my idea.Yes it does work great dont have to worry about rudders flopping down when not in use.Plus the fact that i have no more stinking cams or springs to worry about,and i love when your flying like a bat out of hell and both rudders are down before i always had one that would pop up but not no more.KUDOS
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